Game of Thrones

[Brock Beauchamp]

The Starks seem so gun-ho through the entire affair, that they didn't even consider betrayal; I kept waiting for it, yes, until the point that I no longer thought it would happen.

 

An old post but I just saw it.

 

The Starks are idiots. It's one of my bigger problems with the books. The only characters you genuinely like (barring Sansa) continually put themselves in jeopardy and end up dead.

 

Realistic? Maybe. Enjoyable? Not after 4,500 pages of flogging that horse. It was a great set-up in Game of Thrones but by the fourth book, it starts to wear thin and breaks reader trust.

[kydoty]

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140124023219/vampirediaries/images/7/71/Ramsay.gif

[kydoty]

http://i.imgur.com/XPyBAVQ.png

[diehardtwinsfan]

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140124023219/vampirediaries/images/7/71/Ramsay.gif

 

Oh my..

[PseudoSABR]

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140124023219/vampirediaries/images/7/71/Ramsay.gif

Every older (male) cousin ever.

[TheLeviathan]

An old post but I just saw it.

 

The Starks are idiots. It's one of my bigger problems with the books. The only characters you genuinely like (barring Sansa) continually put themselves in jeopardy and end up dead.

 

Realistic? Maybe. Enjoyable? Not after 4,500 pages of flogging that horse. It was a great set-up in Game of Thrones but by the fourth book, it starts to wear thin and breaks reader trust.

 

 

To be serious though, most books rely on the foil characters to make these sort of mistakes. It's a bit refreshing to see the heroes have this flaw for a change.

[DaveW]

Season was pretty meh overall. They have done a crappy job developing stannis, snow and Dany and her stupid dragons into interesting characters.

[TheLeviathan]

Season was pretty meh overall. They have done a crappy job developing stannis, snow and Dany and her stupid dragons into interesting characters.

 

And I thought it was by far the most packed and riveting season yet. To each their own.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Season was pretty meh overall. They have done a crappy job developing stannis, snow and Dany and her stupid dragons into interesting characters.

 

I haven't watched the latest season yet but Dani turns into a pretty lame character in the books as well. She's great up to the time she frees the slaves but then turns whiny and boring afterward.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I haven't watched the latest season yet but Dani turns into a pretty lame character in the books as well. She's great up to the time she frees the slaves but then turns whiny and boring afterward.

 

Towards the end of the last book, things pick up with her.

 

That said, it will be interesting to see how they go forward with the next season. Season 4 jumped into both books 4 and 5 while they've been saying that this really wraps up with book 3. I'd imagine they have one good season left before they run out of material (as book 6 and 7 aren't out yet).

 

 

Definitely thought this was one of the better seasons yet. Really enjoyed it.

[TheLeviathan]

Towards the end of the last book, things pick up with her.

 

That said, it will be interesting to see how they go forward with the next season. Season 4 jumped into both books 4 and 5 while they've been saying that this really wraps up with book 3. I'd imagine they have one good season left before they run out of material (as book 6 and 7 aren't out yet).

 

 

Definitely thought this was one of the better seasons yet. Really enjoyed it.

 

Sounds like there is an excellent chance the show reveals the conclusion before the books do. Especially since, by most accounts, Martins work in this series tails dramatically in quality after Storm of Swords.

[gunnarthor]

And I thought it was by far the most packed and riveting season yet. To each their own.

Yeah, I agree. Thought it was the best season.

 

That said, it's already going differently than the books in large and small ways. Sansa's plot in the Aryie looks to be very different than the books, less marauding in the riverlands, Jojon died (and no Coldhands who I thought would become an important book character). Tommenin was aged a bit. A lot more Jamie in King's Landing.

 

I thought they did about as well as they could with Dany in Mereen. It'll be interesting to see how they go forward with all that political stuff. I thought the Red Viper was perfect and am really looking forward to how they introduce the Dornish characters next year.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Sounds like there is an excellent chance the show reveals the conclusion before the books do. Especially since, by most accounts, Martins work in this series tails dramatically in quality after Storm of Swords.

 

 

Book 4 in particular was pretty bad. I thought book 5 kind of picked things up. Looking forward to Winds of Winter... whenever it comes out...

 

Martin is acting as a consultant on the HBO series, so I have to think he's steering it a bit. In the same token though, they are starting to make some changes that didn't happen in the books. I'm somewhat curious what they do with them.

[PseudoSABR]

Here's some context for those who haven't read the books from Grantland.

[TheLeviathan]

Book 4 in particular was pretty bad. I thought book 5 kind of picked things up. Looking forward to Winds of Winter... whenever it comes out...

 

Martin is acting as a consultant on the HBO series, so I have to think he's steering it a bit. In the same token though, they are starting to make some changes that didn't happen in the books. I'm somewhat curious what they do with them.

 

My understanding is that given his age and relative health, he's already told the producers the end-game of the series. So any omissions/extras might point to what is ultimately important.

[Steven Buhr]

An old post but I just saw it.

 

The Starks are idiots. It's one of my bigger problems with the books. The only characters you genuinely like (barring Sansa) continually put themselves in jeopardy and end up dead.

 

Realistic? Maybe. Enjoyable? Not after 4,500 pages of flogging that horse. It was a great set-up in Game of Thrones but by the fourth book, it starts to wear thin and breaks reader trust.

 

Just saw this thread for the first time. Silly me, thinking TD was just for baseball.

 

Just thought I'd add that I heard or read somewhere that Martin was quoted as saying something to the effect of, "Every time I get asked when the next book is coming out, a Stark dies."

 

I guess he gets asked that a lot.

[Mike Sixel]

no HBO for me, so I haven't seen season 4 yet.......but I agree, book 4 was mediocre.

 

REALLY needs an editor to stand up to him. And, yes, the tv people know the outline.

[TheLeviathan]

no HBO for me, so I haven't seen season 4 yet.......but I agree, book 4 was mediocre.

 

REALLY needs an editor to stand up to him. And, yes, the tv people know the outline.

 

It's the one thing I really hate about people glorifying the books so far above the show. The show is capturing the best of the book series. It's capturing the emotional essence of it. Is it including every nook and cranny? No. It's also not needlessly exploring every dead-end because it seems cool. (How I feel like Martin writes sometimes)

 

He's created a truly epic fantasy realm and story, but god does he need someone to slap him upside the head and say "focus!" from time to time.

[Brock Beauchamp]

It's capturing the emotional essence of it. Is it including every nook and cranny? No. It's also not needlessly exploring every dead-end because it seems cool. (How I feel like Martin writes pretty much all the time)

 

FIFY.

 

The guy needs an editor like nobody's business. He's big into Literature as Author Masturbation. The world is amazing but he drifts off into pointless crap so often that the reader continually loses focus.

[Mike Sixel]

Told my wife the show was better, and she should watch the show. .... she asked why I kept reading, and I had no good answer, other than I like the books and story, if I don't always love the writing.

[TheLeviathan]

Told my wife the show was better, and she should watch the show. .... she asked why I kept reading, and I had no good answer, other than I like the books and story, if I don't always love the writing.

 

The books are very good and very worth reading. But the legions of internet trolls out there saying the books are vastly better are missing the forest for the trees. The show gets the forest. Martin is way too interested in meaningless trees.

[gunnarthor]

The books are very good and very worth reading. But the legions of internet trolls out there saying the books are vastly better are missing the forest for the trees. The show gets the forest. Martin is way too interested in meaningless trees.

 

I disagree. The show is great for doing what it has with such large source material but all that texture Martin has added to the books really rewards readers. There's enough crappy fantasy literature out there that's been dumbed down into straight fantasy quests.

[TheLeviathan]

I disagree. The show is great for doing what it has with such large source material but all that texture Martin has added to the books really rewards readers. There's enough crappy fantasy literature out there that's been dumbed down into straight fantasy quests.

 

There is a wide gap between a straight ahead quest and Martin's scattergun approach. I've read the first three books, they're great and they do provide a lot of necessary and valuable context. I've also literally felt like I've read chapters that were utterly worthless.

 

Martin himself has admitted he started with a three book idea but gets "fascinated" with characters along the way and stops to admire them. Characters that have a minuscule chance of doing anything more than eating pages. It also has become obvious (and people tell me it becomes MUCH worse come book 4) that more and more time is spent on these cute deadends at the expense of the end-game.

 

Cute deadends would make great ancillary books. As part of the main canon they tend to stretch out what really matters and pretty soon rather than walking the straight path you forgot you headed the wrong direction for a year or two.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Cute deadends would make great ancillary books. As part of the main canon they tend to stretch out what really matters and pretty soon rather than walking the straight path you forgot you headed the wrong direction for a year or two.

 

Basically, imagine The Lord of the Rings. Now, add The Silmarillion to the LOTR novel.

 

That's the A Song of Ice and Fire books.

 

It doesn't mean they're bad books but it does mean that they wander aimlessly for what seems like an eternity. I *love* Martin's world-building but really, a huge portion of it is completely unnecessary to the story at hand.

 

Case in point: the prologue to A Game of Thrones introduced the White Walkers. 4,500 pages later (!), we still know virtually nothing about them.

 

Wait, wut?

 

In the meantime, we've been introduced to literally 100 characters who ultimately will not matter in the final 50 pages of the series. Martin simply *cannot* tie these pieces together in a meaningful manner. The series has gone completely kudzu.

[Mike Sixel]

Oh, he can tie them together some day.....but there are an awful lot of side stories that just don't matter to the plot as a whole. There are already more than a couple dozen main characters, introducing some minor noble from the South that thinks he's some hot stuff, bah. Unneeded.*

 

*that wasn't too much of a spolier....

 

**and the Bran parts of the books, SO DAMN BORING. At least on the show it is tolerable.

 

***speaking of which, don't they need to film faster? some of these kids will have kids of their own by the time the show is done filming.....

[Brock Beauchamp]

Oh, he can tie them together some day.....but there are an awful lot of side stories that just don't matter to the plot as a whole.

 

That's kind of my point. There's no way Martin can tie in every side story to the main arc or resolve that side story in a meaningful fashion. He has too many arcs going to bring it all together or finish the stories he has started.

 

In the end, I don't see A Song of Fire and Ice ending without at least half a dozen Lost-style "I hope you forgot about that story because, uh, it's going nowhere and really has nothing to do with the story I'm telling in the final season/book".

[TheLeviathan]

Basically, imagine The Lord of the Rings. Now, add The Silmarillion to the LOTR novel.

 

That's the A Song of Ice and Fire books.

 

That's a good analogy. Still yet there are other times it feels like in Martin's hands Frodo and Sam might have ended up in Narnia for a book or two.

[Brock Beauchamp]

That's a good analogy. Still yet there are other times it feels like in Martin's hands Frodo and Sam might have ended up in Narnia for a book or two.

 

Hah. Too true.

[Mike Sixel]

Imagine if they had given the Silmarillion to Martin, instead of Kay....btw, Guy Gavriel Kay's books are really, really good. Don't start with the three most recent, though.

[gunnarthor]

There is a wide gap between a straight ahead quest and Martin's scattergun approach. I've read the first three books, they're great and they do provide a lot of necessary and valuable context. I've also literally felt like I've read chapters that were utterly worthless.

 

Martin himself has admitted he started with a three book idea but gets "fascinated" with characters along the way and stops to admire them. Characters that have a minuscule chance of doing anything more than eating pages. It also has become obvious (and people tell me it becomes MUCH worse come book 4) that more and more time is spent on these cute deadends at the expense of the end-game.

 

Cute deadends would make great ancillary books. As part of the main canon they tend to stretch out what really matters and pretty soon rather than walking the straight path you forgot you headed the wrong direction for a year or two.

I guess I'm just not seeing the same deadends that you are. I've greatly enjoyed the additionally stuff brought it - the 100 extra characters someone else mentioned. To each his own, I suppose.