Berardino: Twins GM - Forget Arbitration Clock, Aaron Hicks Belongs

[Thrylos]

On the other hand, it takes some nerve to say he couldn't look the team leaders in the eye otherwise. He doesn't seem to have any problem looking them in the eye after he sat on a stack of cash this offseason - a stack that could've helped this team considerably more than the difference between a month of playing Mastroianni over Hicks.

 

Here are my thoughts on this: I am glad that Ryan did not spend that stack of cash the way he is used to, ie:

- Signing pitchers like Correia (and Capps) to way above market contracts

- bottom feeding at the equivalent of the MLB thrift stores and being a spend thrift, spending his cash in free agent players like Batista, Ponson, RonDL, Jesse Orosco etc?

- Sign over the hill Minnesota-born or bred star players (but I am not sure that there are many of those left any more.)

 

I just don't see a way for Ryan to have spent $40 million and the result would have made the 2013 Twins WS contenders, in other words. So I am glad he did not spent it.

[fairweather]

"Given those facts, I don't understand how the overall offseason can be characterized as "bull****". To be sure, it was a mixed bag. But it was not without some quality. The fact that he signed Correia instead of, say, McCarthy doesn't make an otherwise decent offseason into total bull****. "--Yeah I think it does because now we are all forced to watch him fail. We all know it's going to happen and even while it's happening they will still sit there and say they believe in him and he's about to turn a corner ect.. essentially sabotaging 20% of their games before the all-star break.

[Mr. Brooks]

Here are my thoughts on this: I am glad that Ryan did not spend that stack of cash the way he is used to, ie:

- Signing pitchers like Correia (and Capps) to way above market contracts

- bottom feeding at the equivalent of the MLB thrift stores and being a spend thrift, spending his cash in free agent players like Batista, Ponson, RonDL, Jesse Orosco etc?

- Sign over the hill Minnesota-born or bred star players (but I am not sure that there are many of those left any more.)

 

I just don't see a way for Ryan to have spent $40 million and the result would have made the 2013 Twins WS contenders, in other words. So I am glad he did not spent it.

 

But that is because you are realistic and know that this team is rebuilding.

Apparently, the GM thinks we are competing this year, at least he is looking Morneau, and Mauer, and Willingham, and Perkins in the eye and telling them that we are.

A GM that truly thinks we will be a competitive team certainly could find a few extra wins with $40 million to spend, a few extra wins that can put a competitive team over the top.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

But that is because you are realistic and know that this team is rebuilding.

Apparently, the GM thinks we are competing this year, at least he is looking Morneau, and Mauer, and Willingham, and Perkins in the eye and telling them that we are.

A GM that truly thinks we will be a competitive team certainly could find a few extra wins with $40 million to spend, a few extra wins that can put a competitive team over the top.

 

Explain to me, short of extremely outbidding (overpaying) on both years and money, would a guy with options choose Minnesota this offseason?

 

There's absolutely no draw for a guy to sign a 1 or 2 year deal here when the Twins aren't established contenders. There was a lot of demand for pitching, and that's why only the Correia's and Pelfry's came here.

[Mr. Brooks]

Explain to me, short of extremely outbidding (overpaying) on both years and money, would a guy with options choose Minnesota this offseason?

 

There's absolutely no draw for a guy to sign a 1 or 2 year deal here when the Twins aren't established contenders. There was a lot of demand for pitching, and that's why only the Correia's and Pelfry's came here.

 

That is exactly my point!!

We are not competing.

I understand that the GM might not want to come right out and say we are rebuilding, as it may hurt ticket sales with casual fans, but then don't say anything.

To hint that he's insulted someone would suggest we are not going to be competitive is disrespectful to the customer, IMO.

 

And to address the point that doesnt really need to be addressed, since I was being sarcastic in my previous post: The players go wherever the money is. That is it. I laugh when I hear that FA's don't want to come here. No, they don't come here because we rarely make a legit offer on one.

We made a legit offer to Willingham, and BAM, what do you know, he came here. He came to a cold, frigid city, in the Midwest, a 90 loss team. Why? Because we gave him the best offer.

[ashbury]

I just don't see a way for Ryan to have spent $40 million and the result would have made the 2013 Twins WS contenders, in other words. So I am glad he did not spent it.

 

1. True contention isn't the only aim for 2013. They have been a 90+ loss team for two seasons, and a pipeline of young players is about to produce a contender in 2015 we hope. Use the money to bring some improvement in the record in 2013.
   
2. What do you want them to do with the money instead? Pocket a windfall profit due to the team being bad? I'm not against free enterprise but MLB is not close to free enterprise at the team level, and paradoxes like this should be avoided IMO.
   

[nicksaviking]

Explain to me, short of extremely outbidding (overpaying) on both years and money, would a guy with options choose Minnesota this offseason?

 

There's absolutely no draw for a guy to sign a 1 or 2 year deal here when the Twins aren't established contenders. There was a lot of demand for pitching, and that's why only the Correia's and Pelfry's came here.

 

Brett Myers signed with Cleveland, at the time they looked to be doing nothing other than routine offseason maitenance they also appear to have chosen the better bounceback candidate in Scott Kazmir. The Cubs signed Baker, Feldman, Villanuava and Jackson, yet no one views them as contenders. Iwakuma signed with the Mariners. The Pirates signed Liriano and Karstens, and that's not counting all the minor league deals pitchers signed with both contenders and non-contenders.

 

Most of these guys are not stars, but most were a better deal than what the Twins gave Correia and Pelfrey and none of those teams were viewed as contenders when the players signed.

 

Pitchers are fragile, they will almost always chase the money or the years to get their paycheck now. The Twins are just bad at free agency.

[ashbury]

Explain to me, short of extremely outbidding (overpaying) on both years and money, would a guy with options choose Minnesota this offseason?

 

But that's the point: now is the time *to* overpay. Not on years, but on money.

 

You've spent the offseason making a couple of key trades for prospects, which won't pan out for a couple of years. You've got salary room due to attrition of other players. Now is the time to make offers of 2-year contracts to bridge to the next contending squad. If you have to overpay for those 2 years, well, what were you saving the money on the other deals (or cuts) for, anyway?

 

I'm not saying to spend $150M. Just the $100M that was implied by the arguments for building Target Field.

[Alex]

Explain to me, short of extremely outbidding (overpaying) on both years and money, would a guy with options choose Minnesota this offseason?

 

There's absolutely no draw for a guy to sign a 1 or 2 year deal here when the Twins aren't established contenders. There was a lot of demand for pitching, and that's why only the Correia's and Pelfry's came here.

 

This narrative certainly can make us feel good about our struggles, but can you reference specific instances the Twins made offers to pitchers that were better and the player then signed elsewhere? Dave St. Peter himself said it's "dollars and years, dollars and years."

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

But that's the point: now is the time *to* overpay. Not on years, but on money.

 

You've spent the offseason making a couple of key trades for prospects, which won't pan out for a couple of years. You've got salary room due to attrition of other players. Now is the time to make offers of 2-year contracts to bridge to the next contending squad. If you have to overpay for those 2 years, well, what were you saving the money on the other deals (or cuts) for, anyway?

 

I'm not saying to spend $150M. Just the $100M that was implied by the arguments for building Target Field.

 

The Twins NEVER made any promises about payroll with this stadium. They just never stopped journalists from claiming it would reach that.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

This narrative certainly can make us feel good about our struggles, but can you reference specific instances the Twins made offers to pitchers that were better and the player then signed elsewhere? Dave St. Peter himself said it's "dollars and years, dollars and years."

 

No, in the same way you can't tell me the Twins didn't make competitive offers to those players. Teams typically don't negotiate in public, it's bad for business.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

Brett Myers signed with Cleveland, at the time they looked to be doing nothing other than routine offseason maitenance they also appear to have chosen the better bounceback candidate in Scott Kazmir. The Cubs signed Baker, Feldman, Villanuava and Jackson, yet no one views them as contenders. Iwakuma signed with the Mariners. The Pirates signed Liriano and Karstens, and that's not counting all the minor league deals pitchers signed with both contenders and non-contenders.

 

Most of these guys are not stars, but most were a better deal than what the Twins gave Correia and Pelfrey and none of those teams were viewed as contenders when the players signed.

 

Pitchers are fragile, they will almost always chase the money or the years to get their paycheck now. The Twins are just bad at free agency.

 

Short term Cleveland is a better choice than Minnesota.

 

Cubs have always been a good draw for free agents, and are in a better position to contend.

 

Karstens decided to stay with a club he's been at for a while, Liriano wasn't coming back.

 

Iwakuma to the M's... A Japenese player choosing to play in Seattle? Shocking.

 

Also, it's way too early to rip Correia and Pelfrey. As well as it's too early to call ANY signing better than another. You have to wait for the season to play out before you can make any argument of substance.

[Mr. Brooks]

No, in the same way you can't tell me the Twins didn't make competitive offers to those players. Teams typically don't negotiate in public, it's bad for business.

 

But St. Peter did say, when asked directly if there were any reason a FA didn't want to, or wouldn't want sign here, that it all comes down to dollars and years.

Can we just go ahead and take his word for it, since he works within the organization, and we don't?

[ThePuck]

But St. Peter did say, when asked directly if there were any reason a FA didn't want to, or wouldn't want sign here, that it all comes down to dollars and years.

Can we just go ahead and take his word for it, since he works within the organization, and we don't?

 

Do you believe everything people in the organization say?

[Mr. Brooks]

Do you believe everything people in the organization say?

 

 

 

Do you think there is some fundamental reason, outside of the lack of offers given to them by us, that FA's wouldnt want to come here?

[ThePuck]

Do you think there is some fundamental reason, outside of the lack of offers given to them by us, that FA's wouldnt want to come here?

 

Not really. I love Minneapolis...and we've only been bad for two years.

 

Thing is, you just said 'Can we just go ahead and take his word for it, since he works within the organization, and we don't?' If you use that as your argument, stands to reason you should just believe everything people in the organization says. Can't really fall back on that only when it serves your argument and disregard when it doesn't...

 

BTW, I agree it comes down to money and years...but I'm not going to blanket takes his word on everything...or Ryan's, or Gardy's...or any Pohlad...

[Mr. Brooks]

Not really. I love Minneapolis...and we've only been bad for two years.

 

Thing is, you just said 'Can we just go ahead and take his word for it, since he works within the organization, and we don't?' If you use that as your argument, stands to reason you should just believe everything people in the organization says. Can't really fall back on that only when it serves your argument and disregard when it doesn't...

 

BTW, I agree it comes down to money and years...but I'm not going to blanket takes his word on everything...or Ryan's, or Gardy's...or any Pohlad...

 

No, I don't really believe anything that comes out of St. Peter's mouth. I was trying to make a point to the guy posting ahead of me.

 

However, having actually heard the interview where he said that, I got the impression that he was taken by surprise on that question, and answered it honestly.

 

The reason St. Peter lies is to spin things in favor of the organization. The fact that the Twins lowball FA's is somewhat of an indictment, so I think if he were trying to spin things he would have went a different direction.

 

The biggest evidence, IMO, that this "they don't want to come here" argument is incorrect, is the fact that our biggest name FA signing in recent memory (Willingham) happened to come after one of our worst seasons in recent memory.

Willingham came here because we made the best offer. It really is that simple, IMO.

[TheLeviathan]

BTW, I agree it comes down to money and years...but I'm not going to blanket takes his word on everything...or Ryan's, or Gardy's...or any Pohlad...

 

I tend to believe the things that public faces of sports organizations say when it falls outside of their normal cliches. For St. Peter to acknowledge that ultimately it's really dollars and years....that's not the normal mantra. Which leads me to believe that it was genuine talk rather than lip service.

 

Afterall, what on earth would prompt him to say that other than a rare moment of honesty?

[ThePuck]

I tend to believe the things that public faces of sports organizations say when it falls outside of their normal cliches. For St. Peter to acknowledge that ultimately it's really dollars and years....that's not the normal mantra. Which leads me to believe that it was genuine talk rather than lip service.

 

Afterall, what on earth would prompt him to say that other than a rare moment of honesty?

 

and then Ryan says they can't even give their money away. Now, it might just be a matter of perception, but that sounds like he's implying there's more to it than money and years...whether it's true or not...and that conflicts with St Peter. Both in the organization

[Mr. Brooks]

and then Ryan says they can't even give their money away. Now, it might just be a matter of perception, but that sounds like he's implying there's more to it than money and years...whether it's true or not...and that conflicts with St Peter. Both in the organization

 

Where/when did Ryan say that?

The reason I ask, is because what I heard him say (I believe in a Mackey interview?), was that he WONT give the money away. As in, they won't pay a guy more than he's worth, just because they have extra money to spend.

[cmathewson]

Do you think there is some fundamental reason, outside of the lack of offers given to them by us, that FA's wouldnt want to come here?

 

Chance of winning.

Distance from their family.

Wanting to pitch in the NL.

Wanting to pitch in front of a proven defense (we had no center fielder, right fielder or second baseman, a shortstop who had been DFAed twice in the previous 12 months, a backup catcher who was well known as the worst at his trade at framing pitches, and a left fielder who's among the worst in the leaugue).

[Mr. Brooks]

Chance of winning.

Distance from their family.

Wanting to pitch in the NL.

Wanting to pitch in front of a proven defense (we had no center fielder, right fielder or second baseman, a shortstop who had been DFAed twice in the previous 12 months, a backup catcher who was well known as the worst at his trade at framing pitches, and a left fielder who's among the worst in the leaugue).

 

If you think guys, in mass, are turning down money and/or years for those reasons, we'll just have to agree to disagree, which is cool.

 

And TR said that Correia turned down money elsewhere to sign here. I'm not sure I believe it, but if true, that kind of goes counter to your opinion that FA pitchers are avoiding signing here.

 

I'm sure there have been guys who turned down slightly more money for some of those reasons, but I think, as a general rule, that if a guy gets an offer that blows the rest of them away, he's going to take it no matter which team it's from.

[TheLeviathan]

and then Ryan says they can't even give their money away. Now, it might just be a matter of perception, but that sounds like he's implying there's more to it than money and years...whether it's true or not...and that conflicts with St Peter. Both in the organization

 

No, Ryan said that first. St. Peter's comments came later and were in a pretty direct conversation. The fact is, what Ryan said is what he HAS to say when he fails to bring people in. St. Peter's comments, after a failure of an offseason, sound like an incredibly stupid thing to say.

 

I'm inclined to believe the publicly stated stupidity because, well, if he was thinking he would've given us a cliche and not the damning truth. Ryan gave us the nonsense that was supposed to ease our concerns.

[cmathewson]

If you think guys, in mass, are turning down money and/or years for those reasons, we'll just have to agree to disagree, which is cool.

 

And TR said that Correia turned down money elsewhere to sign here. I'm not sure I believe it, but if true, that kind of goes counter to your opinion that FA pitchers are avoiding signing here.

 

I'm sure there have been guys who turned down slightly more money for some of those reasons, but I think, as a general rule, that if a guy gets an offer that blows the rest of them away, he's going to take it no matter which team it's from.

 

I agree with this. Then I have to question the wisdom of making offers that blow the rest of the competition away. There are reasons guys get offered dollars and years within a certain ballpark. It's because that's what they're worth on the market. If you're paying substantially higher rates than market value, you're overpaying.

 

I'm not against overpaying in cases like this year, where we had a big budget surplus and a lot of needs. I guess that's where I question the GM for not blowing McCarthy or some other "pretty darn good pitcher" away. Rumor has it, TR made a competitive offer, but McCarthy wanted to pitch in the southwestern part of the country and in the NL. So a competitive offer was not going to get it done. Instead of blowing him away, Ryan chose to go in another direction. He muttered something about durability and innings. I don't agree with it. But I'm also not going to get pissed off about it. In the grand scheme of things, the decision is not that big a deal.

 

My point is, it's not just dollars and years. If a guy has two or three competitive offers, other factors enter in.

[Mr. Brooks]

I agree with this. Then I have to question the wisdom of making offers that blow the rest of the competition away. There are reasons guys get offered dollars and years within a certain ballpark. It's because that's what they're worth on the market. If you're paying substantially higher rates than market value, you're overpaying.

 

I'm not against overpaying in cases like this year, where we had a big budget surplus and a lot of needs. I guess that's where I question the GM for not blowing McCarthy or some other "pretty darn good pitcher" away. Rumor has it, TR made a competitive offer, but McCarthy wanted to pitch in the southwestern part of the country and in the NL. So a competitive offer was not going to get it done. Instead of blowing him away, Ryan chose to go in another direction. He muttered something about durability and innings. I don't agree with it. But I'm also not going to get pissed off about it. In the grand scheme of things, the decision is not that big a deal.

 

My point is, it's not just dollars and years. If a guy has two or three competitive offers, other factors enter in.

 

I do as well, but then again I don't think you need to.

But, if it turns out I am wrong, and FA's really don't want to come here, then what other choice do you have, but to overpay?

You can't just throw up your hands and say, "well I guess we just can't get any FA's then, poor us...."

If THE ONLY way to get any FA's to come here is to overpay a little bit, then I guess that is what you have to do, I don't really see any other choice.

[cmathewson]

I do as well, but then again I don't think you need to.

But, if it turns out I am wrong, and FA's really don't want to come here, then what other choice do you have, but to overpay?

You can't just throw up your hands and say, "well I guess we just can't get any FA's then, poor us...."

If THE ONLY way to get any FA's to come here is to overpay a little bit, then I guess that is what you have to do, I don't really see any other choice.

 

I don't think it always takes overpayment to get players to sign with a team that has lost 190 games in the last two years, and about which the pundits give no hope of improvement. But it frequently does.

 

Ryan likes to sign with guys who want to come here on competitive offers. If it is just about money, he's not really that interested. The paradigm would be Willingham, who welcomed the opportunity to be part of the solution, despite how horrible the team was in 2011. He signed for less than his market value, according to several pundits. That's a sign that he is more interested in playing for a good organization than getting the absolute maximum dollars he could.

[ThePuck]

No, Ryan said that first. St. Peter's comments came later and were in a pretty direct conversation.

 

Sorry, I know it reads as though I was talking chronologically, but I wasn't.

[Mr. Brooks]

I don't think it always takes overpayment to get players to sign with a team that has lost 190 games in the last two years, and about which the pundits give no hope of improvement. But it frequently does.

 

Ryan likes to sign with guys who want to come here on competitive offers. If it is just about money, he's not really that interested. The paradigm would be Willingham, who welcomed the opportunity to be part of the solution, despite how horrible the team was in 2011. He signed for less than his market value, according to several pundits. That's a sign that he is more interested in playing for a good organization than getting the absolute maximum dollars he could.

 

Okay, but if that is going to be his mantra in FA, then he doesnt get to use it as an excuse.

He can't have it both ways.

[cmathewson]

Okay, but if that is going to be his mantra in FA, then he doesnt get to use it as an excuse.

He can't have it both ways.

 

I don't think he's using it as an excuse. It's just a fact. He made several competitive offers. Only two of the guys to whom he offered contracts chose to sign with the Twins. Liriano said he wanted a change of scenery. McCarthy didn't want to sign here for the reasons I mentioned. Baker and Garza chose the Cubs for reasons that aren't entirely clear. There might have been others, but those are the only ones I know about.

 

Point is, he doesn't have complete control over who signs with his team. All he can do is make competitive offers and hope that the player will want to come here enough to sign. If they do, that's a good start.

[SurroundedByTigers]

Let's get back to the issue at hand, and that's whether Hicks should be in the minors for a 6 weeks or so before coming up to the BIGS, AND saving some bucks, or starting the BIGS in CF in MN. I agree with Ryan. You give Mauer and Morneau some hope by not holding back Hicks when it obvious he is ready for the BIGS. Let's also be honest - we have 2 or 3 pitchers in the minors who will be in the BIGS in another year, if not sooner. That makes us competitive. That gives us some hope. That's why you play your best players, and PAY your best players in order to keep them.