Berardino: Twins GM - Forget Arbitration Clock, Aaron Hicks Belongs

[East Coast Twin]

Terry Ryan takes offense to the notion that he would keep a player off the 25 man roster to delay service time.

 

"The guy has earned it," Ryan said of the former 14th overall draft pick in 2008. "I find it almost humorous that people are talking about service time, starting the clock. We didn't trade (Denard) Span and (Ben) Revere to stall the next guy."

 

"Are we trying to win, or what are we doing?" Ryan said. "Can you imagine if we sent somebody out that did what the kid did, and I had to look at (Josh) Willingham and (Justin) Morneau and (Glen) Perkins and (Joe) Mauer and those guys that are trying to win, and I'm going to stop that guy? I just don't believe in that. I hear this stuff. Not here."

 

Minnesota Twins GM: Forget arbitration clock, Aaron Hicks belongs - TwinCities.com

[glanzer]

Interesting! I totally agree with Terry Ryan's thinking. I also found this Mastroianni comment refreshing:

 

"I think it solidifies to all the fans in Minnesota that none of us are lying when we say we're not rebuilding, that we're here to win baseball games and we're going to compete this year," Mastroianni said. "If we were truly in a rebuilding stage, then I would be the center fielder and Aaron would come up in a couple months when they could save money.

[PseudoSABR]

Maestro's attitude is pretty impressive.

[Guest USAFChief]

What's badsmerf's take on this?

[nicksaviking]

"Are we trying to win, or what are we doing?" Ryan said. "Can you imagine if we sent somebody out that did what the kid did, and I had to look at (Josh) Willingham and (Justin) Morneau and (Glen) Perkins and (Joe) Mauer and those guys that are trying to win, and I'm going to stop that guy? I just don't believe in that. I hear this stuff. Not here."

 

Uh huh, Glen Perkins would totally agree that this club doesn't consider service time when making roster decisions. Can somebody tell me how to make the smiley face with the eye roll?

[LimestoneBaggy]

I wanted the Twins to extend his service time another year, but I can't really complain that they'd give him his shot. He earned it. Mastro's team mentality is certainly impressive.

[gunnarthor]

No problem with this. He earned it. If he struggles, he gets sent to AAA and delays the clock anyway.

[LimestoneBaggy]

"Are we trying to win, or what are we doing?" Ryan said. "Can you imagine if we sent somebody out that did what the kid did, and I had to look at (Josh) Willingham and (Justin) Morneau and (Glen) Perkins and (Joe) Mauer and those guys that are trying to win, and I'm going to stop that guy? I just don't believe in that. I hear this stuff. Not here."

 

Uh huh, Glen Perkins would totally agree that this club doesn't consider service time when making roster decisions. Can somebody tell me how to make the smiley face with the eye roll?

 

Nicks. Honest Question: Did Glen have a real justifiable argument when he brought his claim? I beleive the 2008-2010 Glen was the picture of a struggling pitcher. If Hicks gets sent down for not playing well and retains his service time, isn't that fair?

[Badsmerf]

What's badsmerf's take on this?

Right on par with other ignorant decisions Terry Ryan has made. I applaud his integrity to his players, but on the other hand believe he is incredibly impetuous if he believes the people in Minnesota will be screaming foul play be saving a year of cheap control.

 

To me it also sends a mixed message. He wasn't willing to get some actual talent for the pitching staff and made a terrible investment, yet he wants to play Hicks right away and not worry about his clock? What is he doing, playing for the future or playing for 2013? All this rhetoric about 2013 makes me feel more and more like 1) he's an idiot 2) he thinks Twins fans are idiots.

 

I'm ok with the drafts lately, but his inability to manage the major league team drive me ****ing crazy. Anybody who think this team will be competitive after the bull**** offseason they had is kidding themselves. How does Terry Ryan keep a straight face when saying this after signing Correia, completely ignoring the MI, and not even attempt to upgrade a single position through FA?

 

If he had signed one of the starting pitchers with some talent then go ahead, play right away Hicks because you might be competitive down the stretch. That would say "we want to win." Instead, its all propaganda. The Twins take the stance that fans shouldn't question the moves they make.

 

That is how I feel.

[cwzimmerman]

One thing I've never seen in all the threads bringing up the service time angle is, how does such an abritrary action play on the psyche of the player if they've shown that they're ready? Provided that his play merits consideration for going north with the team, would such an action potentially cause the player to be more likely to sign elsewhere at his first opportunity?

 

I say that if the Twins think Hicks is ready (which they apparently do), then to heck with the service time angle and give him a reasonable opportunity to show what he can do. If he falls flat on his face the first go-round, then the whole service time thing basically becomes a moot point.

 

BTW -- I agree with TR on this point.

[cwzimmerman]

I agree with Pseudo. I think it shows his value as a teammate.

[nicksaviking]

Nicks. Honest Question: Did Glen have a real justifiable argument when he brought his claim? I beleive the 2008-2010 Glen was the picture of a struggling pitcher. If Hicks gets sent down for not playing well and retains his service time, isn't that fair?

 

I didn't disagree with the Perkins decision, heck I could go either way on the Hicks service time issue. I just find it humorous and ironic that he tosses Perkins' name out there when talking about delaying service time as Perkins clearly disagreed about the intent of his demotion that last year in the Metrodome.

[cmathewson]

Everyone was pleased with the two trades TR made this offseason. Most people were pleased with the fringe signings (Pelfrey, Harden, etc.) Most people HATE the Correia signing. Most people are skeptical of standing pat in the middle infield.

 

Given those facts, I don't understand how the overall offseason can be characterized as "bull****". To be sure, it was a mixed bag. But it was not without some quality. The fact that he signed Correia instead of, say, McCarthy doesn't make an otherwise decent offseason into total bull****.

 

One starter, in the scheme of things, is not that big of a deal. Consider Nick Blackburn. He sucked last year, and was DFAed in May, despite the fact that he was owed $10 million for 2012-13. His pitching resulted in a -.5 WAR. I doubt Correia sucks as bad as Blackburn, but even if he does, he will not have that big of an impact on the team. He'll be gone in May and someone else (Deduno or Gibson, probably) will take his place. Why is that one signing viewed with such hostility considering its limited downside?

 

Say we keep Hicks down until mid-May and his replacement posts a -.5 WAR relative to what he could provide over that time. Most people who argue for Hicks to stay down until May in favor of some lesser player are basically saying we should automatically take at least as much downside as Correia will provide, supposing he sucks as bad as Nick Blackburn did last year. These same people are crying foul because we are playing Corriea instead of Deduno or Gibson (who are in a similar position as Hicks re: service time). It seems like an internal inconsistency to me.

[raindog]

I totally agree with Terry Ryan here. He'll probably end up getting extended, and I couldn't care less if he has a little more negotiating power.

[ashbury]

Mastro's team mentality is certainly impressive.

 

I can't even begin to express how much I agree with this. I've said that Mastro can be a starting CF, on a last place team, or a 4th outfielder, on a good one. His quote re-states this in not quite the same words. Remarkable self-awareness.

[Badsmerf]

Deduno or Gibson (who are in a similar position as Hicks re: service time). It seems like an internal inconsistency to me.

 

False. Deduno has proved over 8 years he is not an MLB pitcher. The Twins have managed him well. Gibson, on the other hand, is starting in AAA and is already cost-controlled through his prime. It isn't even close to parallel situations that you can draw an inconsistency.

 

I guess mediocre is acceptable with this organization. What I was clearly alluding to was the comment about looking at players at the MLB level Yes, those moves will help the team down the road, but that wasn't the discussion was it. Terry Ryan added Worely and Correia to a 90 loss team and slashed payroll by over 10%.

[nicksaviking]

Gibson, on the other hand, is starting in AAA and is already cost-controlled through his prime. It isn't even close to parallel situations that you can draw an inconsistency.

 

I agree, had it worked out the other way where Gibson made the 25-man but Hicks was sent down you could suspect service time manipulation but as it is, Gibson will be on the wrong side of 30 when the Twins lose control of him. The Twins are playing it straight with those two.

 

Not to say I always believe they don't play with service time. I just think they fiddle with it at the lower levels of the minors. For instance their penchant for keeping HS draftees in low A ball for a full season with little hope of promotion.

[Willihammer]

I say that if the Twins think Hicks is ready (which they apparently do), then to heck with the service time angle and give him a reasonable opportunity to show what he can do. If he falls flat on his face the first go-round, then the whole service time thing basically becomes a moot point.

 

It becomes moot if Hicks falls flat, it becomes moot if Hicks succeeds and the team works out an extension. It becomes moot if Arcia, Kepler, Buxton, or whoever else are ready to displace him within the next 4-5 years. It becomes more moot if the team can package him into a favorable trade.

 

Hicks' service clock not a serious debate "industry observers" are having.

 

This is a puff piece.

[cmathewson]

False. Deduno has proved over 8 years he is not an MLB pitcher. The Twins have managed him well. Gibson, on the other hand, is starting in AAA and is already cost-controlled through his prime. It isn't even close to parallel situations that you can draw an inconsistency.

 

I'm saying you can't really complain about Correia if, by signing him, they stop Gibson's clock. Look up Replacement Level Pitcher in the dictionary and you get a picture of Correia. He's the kind of guy you sign when you want to give your young guys more time to develop (or you want cost control). He's like and expensive version of Brandon Boggs. By your logic, the Twins should have kept Brandon Boggs and sent Hicks down until June. If that's your logic, you can't really complain about Correia, except the expense.

 

Personally, I don't care about the expense, considering that the team is under budget and it was the going rate.

 

Anyway, you can complain that Ryan doesn't care about cost control. But it's not going to do any good. All he cares about is whether a player is ready or not. Hicks is ready. Gibson is not. The fact that one is cost controlled at this point and the other is not is irrelevant for the Twins FO. Get used to it.

 

Personally, I agree with the Twins. The new stadium enables the team to spend what it takes to win, realizing that paying a guy a little more than you might otherwise need to in his early years is still a lot cheaper than paying free agents.

[John Bonnes]

I find myself at odds. On the one hand, I'm ok with bringing up Hicks. Is have been ok with them keeping him in the minors too, but if you want to play the "he earned it" card, fine.

 

On the other hand, it takes some nerve to say he couldn't look the team leaders in the eye otherwise. He doesn't seem to have any problem looking them in the eye after he sat on a stack of cash this offseason - a stack that could've helped this team considerably more than the difference between a month of playing Mastroianni over Hicks.

[bteichr]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I hate the Correia signing because it was for 2 years at a time when there were plenty of other similar pitchers available.

[jokin]

False. Deduno has proved over 8 years he is not an MLB pitcher. The Twins have managed him well. Gibson, on the other hand, is starting in AAA and is already cost-controlled through his prime. It isn't even close to parallel situations that you can draw an inconsistency.

 

1)I guess mediocre is acceptable with this organization. What I was clearly alluding to was the comment about looking at players at the MLB level Yes, those moves will help the team down the road, but that wasn't the discussion was it. 2) Terry Ryan added Worely and Correia to a 90 loss team and slashed payroll by over 10%.

 

1) ...And too many fans...

 

2) Payroll was slashed by more like 20%, ex- Blackie, Butera and Capps obligations, more like 25%+

[Guest USAFChief]

1) ...And too many fans...

 

2) Payroll was slashed by more like 20%, ex- Blackie, Butera and Capps obligations, more like 25%+

+1. I don't see how anyone can complain about Hicks service time without screaming at the top of their lungs about 2013 payroll.

[Thegrin]

All things considered, Ryan brought up Dozier last year, and Dozier needed to be sent down. Hicks has played ST like a major leaguer. Now we'll get to see what he can do with the season. Ryan would like to give us a team we can cheer for.

 

We've got Mauer, Morneaux & Willingham. That is a pretty good 3-4-5. What was he going to do with the Middle Infield. There were no difference makers on the market. He went with our mediocre talents instead of wasting assets gaining other peoples mediocre talents. Here's hoping that ours work out. We are taking a risk with Hicks and Dozier batting at the top of the order, but Gardy won't keep them at the top, if they aren't setting the table for the big guys. We may see Mastro leading off and Mauer batting 2nd before June.

If we stayed patient with Valencia for 3 years, we can stay patient with Plouffe for one more season. What choice do we have, except to let Parmelee play through the season. All he needs to do is play acceptable RF and hit 250+ with some power, and he seems a cinch to do that. This season will be interesting and fun. Badsmurf and Thylos don't want to see it that way, but that is what curmudgeons are for.

[Mr. Brooks]

All things considered, Ryan brought up Dozier last year, and Dozier needed to be sent down. Hicks has played ST like a major leaguer. Now we'll get to see what he can do with the season. Ryan would like to give us a team we can cheer for.

 

We've got Mauer, Morneaux & Willingham. That is a pretty good 3-4-5. What was he going to do with the Middle Infield. There were no difference makers on the market. He went with our mediocre talents instead of wasting assets gaining other peoples mediocre talents. Here's hoping that ours work out. We are taking a risk with Hicks and Dozier batting at the top of the order, but Gardy won't keep them at the top, if they aren't setting the table for the big guys. We may see Mastro leading off and Mauer batting 2nd before June.

If we stayed patient with Valencia for 3 years, we can stay patient with Plouffe for one more season. What choice do we have, except to let Parmelee play through the season. All he needs to do is play acceptable RF and hit 250+ with some power, and he seems a cinch to do that. This season will be interesting and fun. Badsmurf and Thylos don't want to see it that way, but that is what curmudgeons are for.

 

Jose Reyes was available.

The Rangers are desperate to find a place for Profar to come up and play. Andrus is widely believed to have been on the market for the right price. Kinsler would probably be available for the right price.

I'm sure there were/are a handful of other above average to good MI options that are available that havent been made known to the public.

[cmathewson]

Jose Reyes was available.

The Rangers are desperate to find a place for Profar to come up and play. Andrus is widely believed to have been on the market for the right price. Kinsler would probably be available for the right price.

I'm sure there were/are a handful of other above average to good MI options that are available that havent been made known to the public.

 

The key phrases are "for the right price". None of those guys were available for anything less than two top 10 organizational prospects. You want to give up Arcia and Rosario? Be my guest. I'll take my chances on the guys we have until Santana and Rosario are ready, rather than get expensive, aging guys who might not fill the bill.

 

It's easy to say we should have traded for players who never got traded to the 29 other teams. Even in cases where a guy we liked got traded, say James Shields, the price was way too high (the Rays said Sano or goodbye).

[Mr. Brooks]

The key phrases are "for the right price". None of those guys were available for anything less than two top 10 organizational prospects. You want to give up Arcia and Rosario? Be my guest. I'll take my chances on the guys we have until Santana and Rosario are ready, rather than get expensive, aging guys who might not fill the bill.

 

It's easy to say we should have traded for players who never got traded to the 29 other teams. Even in cases where a guy we liked got traded, say James Shields, the price was way too high (the Rays said Sano or goodbye).

 

I'm not saying we should have done that.

Just pointing out that there are always guys available.

I wouldnt want to do it because it does no good to add a good veteran to this team, we are rebuilding.

But if I were trying to say with a straight face that we are going to be competitive this year, and pretend to take it as an insult to suggest otherwise, I would consider those trades.

Prospects in general are highly overrated. A tiny percent pan out to anything more than an average player, if that.

[Boom Boom]

I really don't care about Hicks's arbitration clock. If the Twins want to keep him around, they will, and the difference in cost will be minimal.

 

I agree with Bonnes that if TR wanted to prove to the veterans that 2013 wasn't a rebuilding year he should have spent some more money...

[ashbury]

+1. I don't see how anyone can complain about Hicks service time without screaming at the top of their lungs about 2013 payroll.

 

+1 to that. When I think of all the things a GM must to do perform effective stewardship, it all comes to little if you don't actually make *use* of the resources you've so carefully conserved.

 

I haven't been in MN for many years, but my understanding is that Target Field was built in large part due to the arguments by the team that they would spend $100M a year to field a good team; there's a moral obligation this year not to simply pocket the $20M or so that hasn't been spent. I'm open to the argument that Ryan may use this resource to make in-season deals; however, if the lack of off-season spending is what keeps them from being contenders early in the season, so that in-season deals don't even make sense, then it ends up looking like a screwup, much moreso than if they had depleted cash reserves and then wound up with a marginal contender they couldn't push over the top with a deadline deal.

[cmathewson]

The one difference between keeping Hicks and spending on free agency is abstraction. Free agents we didn't sign are always abstract. Most of the dealing happens behind a veil of secrecy. The veterans on the team don't know if we offered contracts to those players, let alone what we offered. They can take issue with a lack of moves that were made in abstract, but they can't take issue with specific moves that were not made, because they simply don't know what went on behind closed doors. Signing players is not entirely up to the team that makes the offer. Players go to teams they think have a good chance to win, are closer to home, and a dozen other reasons that favor one team over another, all things considered.

 

On the other hand, whether you keep Hicks or a lesser player to start the season is a concrete thing. Unlike free agency, it's entirely up to the GM who ends up on the roster at the end of spring training. Also, the veterans know a lot more about the possibilities than they do about hypothetical free agent signings. Not only do the veterans have a good sense of who Hicks is, they've seen him play almost everyday for the past month. They can't help but emerge impressed and desirous to have him on their team. At that point, to arbitrarily hold him back would be a slap in their faces.