Rosenthal Article: Let Gardenhire go? That'd be lame.

[twinsnorth49]

I thought I made it pretty clear that all of that was my opinion.

I guess I should have said it a few more times...

 

Yeah, you added that disclaimer and then ended that paragraph with pretty much a statement of fact, if that is your opinion you should try backing it up with some facts, other than the team having a couple of bad seasons.

[LimestoneBaggy]

I don't care for his batting order and the still fresh treadmarks on a selected group of players. I'm guessing he thinks this motivates some players (I'll never know either his reasoning for that or whether it actually helped someone).

 

All I know (think?) is that he managed to win a few division titles with teams that I believe shouldn't have won (even in the Central), he's a public figure in Twin Territory that is pretty much a team mascot in itself, and he seems to be well-respected/regarded within his organization. Like it or lump it, if he loses less than 90, I think he gets a new contract. I really wouldn't mind...wish he would change his mind on the two-hole though, that one really burns me.

[fairweather]

I will NEVER get over the embarrassment the Twins and all their fans endured at the hands of the Yankee's during Gardenhires tenure. He has to go.

[Mr. Brooks]

Yeah, you added that disclaimer and then ended that paragraph with pretty much a statement of fact, if that is your opinion you should try backing it up with some facts, other than the team having a couple of bad seasons.

 

Jeez. If I had facts it wouldnt be an opinion, now would it?

Is it okay if I state an opinion, on a baseball message board, is that cool with you?

Or should this board be limited to facts only?

I can get facts at baseball reference, I come to places like this to hear peoples opinions.

 

And, FYI, I went back and counted. 8 times I used the words "I think" and/or "I don't think", 1 time I used the words "in my opinion, and 1 time I used the phrase, "of course I can't know".

 

That is 10 times that I went out of my way to make sure it was clear that entire post was opinion, and not fact.

But, again, maybe 10 times in one post is not enough to be clear to everyone. Most people, probably, but not everyone.

[CDog]

He prefers to keep his veteran players happy over challenging them to do something else that might favor the team. (last year's outfield alignment is a perfect example: Willingham was in LF because he was "more comfortable there", Span was in CF because "he likes it", and Revere was in RF because that was what was left, when the best defensive alignment was almost certainly Span in LF, Revere in CF, and Willingham in RF)

 

I thought I had retired, but my "job" is to point out that they started spring training with Revere playing in LF and Willingham in RF until the staff and Ben Revere himself found that Revere struggled playing LF.

 

Carry on.

[CDog]

Gardy, during an interview on ESPN1500 after the 2011 season, said some of the young guys got defensive with him, not wanting to listen, and he even said they complained about him, 'throwing them under the bus'. I used to have this link and I've posted it a few time on the MLB site, but no matter how hard I try to find it again, I can't.

 

I can see how this post applies to the thread, but it has really nothing to do with my post that it quoted. Guys being defensive, etc, isn't at all the same as quitting.

[Mr. Brooks]

I thought I had retired, but my "job" is to point out that they started spring training with Revere playing in LF and Willingham in RF until the staff and Ben Revere himself found that Revere struggled playing LF.

 

Carry on.

 

Actually jmlease is correct. Gardy tried him (Willy) in RF, but moved him to left because he wasnt comfortable there.

The move couldnt have been made because of Revere, the move was made BEFORE a decision had even been made on who the 3rd starting OF'er would be, and in fact Revere was considered "likely to be the 4th OF'er" (quote from Dave St. Peter at the time Gardy made the move to LF from RF for Willingham.)

 

http://twinsdaily.com/358-gardenhire-announces-his-outfield-plans.html

[Boom Boom]

If the success or failure of a team could be completely out of a manager's control (like Rosenthal implies here), I could be a MLB manager. Anyone could. There would be no reason to sign a Ron Gardenhire or a Buck Showalter because their net effect on the team is so minimal.

 

As unfair as it may be, the win/loss record is inextricable from the manager and ultimately that's what they are held accountable for.

[CDog]

Actually jmlease is correct. Gardy tried him (Willy) in RF, but moved him to left because he wasnt comfortable there.

The move couldnt have been made because of Revere, the move was made BEFORE a decision had even been made on who the 3rd starting OF'er would be, and in fact Revere was considered "likely to be the 4th OF'er" (quote from Dave St. Peter at the time Gardy made the move to LF from RF for Willingham.)

 

Twins Daily - Gardenhire announces his outfield plans

 

Googling "revere left field gardenhire" results in article after article talking about how they started the spring with Willingham in right (one quotes Gardenhire saying Willingham was willing to do whatever needed) and Revere in left and then changed after seeing Revere play left field. Also many articles stating that Revere had been the expected starter for left field coming in to the spring. This is quoted from one of them from Startribune.com...

 

The Twins will sacrifice significant range if Revere isn't given a starting spot, but his throwing arm remains a concern for the Twins. His throws were particularly erratic in left field this spring.

 

"I don't know what the difference is, but every time I get a throw in right, it seems like it's on the money all the time," Revere said. "But in left field, it's a totally different story, I have no idea why."

[TheLeviathan]

If the success or failure of a team could be completely out of a manager's control (like Rosenthal implies here), I could be a MLB manager. Anyone could. There would be no reason to sign a Ron Gardenhire or a Buck Showalter because their net effect on the team is so minimal.

 

As unfair as it may be, the win/loss record is inextricable from the manager and ultimately that's what they are held accountable for.

 

I think you're taking the argument a bit far. Managers have an impact and a good manager can do a lot to help a ballclub, but ultimately they are usually not the main drive force behind success or failure. If you're waiting for Gardenhire to give the Twins a Bobby V-esque meltdown that justifies his firing, it isn't going to happen. But sometimes change is good, I think that's where we are at.

[Mr. Brooks]

Googling "revere left field gardenhire" results in article after article talking about how they started the spring with Willingham in right (one quotes Gardenhire saying Willingham was willing to do whatever needed) and Revere in left and then changed after seeing Revere play left field. Also many articles stating that Revere had been the expected starter for left field coming in to the spring. This is quoted from one of them from Startribune.com...

 

The Twins will sacrifice significant range if Revere isn't given a starting spot, but his throwing arm remains a concern for the Twins. His throws were particularly erratic in left field this spring.

 

"I don't know what the difference is, but every time I get a throw in right, it seems like it's on the money all the time," Revere said. "But in left field, it's a totally different story, I have no idea why."

 

Ben Revere started 5 games in April and was sent to the minors.

I find it hard to believe that Gardy moved Willingham to left field to make room for a guy who would start 5 games in April, then go down to the minors because they wanted him playing every day.

 

The quote in your post simply states that Revere said his throws were not as accurate from LF. Nowhere does it say, or even imply that was the reason for moving Willingham to LF.

[CDog]

Ben Revere started 5 games in April and was sent to the minors.

I find it hard to believe that Gardy moved Willingham to left field to make room for a guy who would start 5 games in April, then go down to the minors because they wanted him playing every day.

 

The quote in your post simply states that Revere said his throws were not as accurate from LF. Nowhere does it say, or even imply that was the reason for moving Willingham to LF.

 

Revere started THREE games before being sent to the minors. The other two April games came after being recalled. Not sure what that has to do with anything.

 

The quote I included was a tiny part of a very long list of articles. I don't think we're supposed to quote too much from copyrighted stuff, and I certainly wasn't going to link to the entire list of many. They're out there. The plan coming in to spring training was Revere in left, Willingham in right (I assume because they worried about Revere's arm in right initially). That was even how they started out playing games in the spring. Many quotes, not just the part I included (which was to specify the one I had alluded to in a previous post), and all of the articles discuss this. Parmelee looking like a viable option, Morneau moving to DH so Doumit needed to play...these were all part of the puzzle where Revere got edged out of the picture. It's all there if you want to read about it if your memory doesn't still hold it.

[Mr. Brooks]

Revere started THREE games before being sent to the minors. The other two April games came after being recalled. Not sure what that has to do with anything.

 

The quote I included was a tiny part of a very long list of articles. I don't think we're supposed to quote too much from copyrighted stuff, and I certainly wasn't going to link to the entire list of many. They're out there. The plan coming in to spring training was Revere in left, Willingham in right (I assume because they worried about Revere's arm in right initially). That was even how they started out playing games in the spring. Many quotes, not just the part I included (which was to specify the one I had alluded to in a previous post), and all of the articles discuss this. Parmelee looking like a viable option, Morneau moving to DH so Doumit needed to play...these were all part of the puzzle where Revere got edged out of the picture. It's all there if you want to read about it if your memory doesn't still hold it.

 

Bolded part: You don't move a guy from RF to LF to make room for your 4th OF'er. That is why that matters.

 

The rest: Nobody is arguing that the plan coming into ST was Revere in LF, Span in CF, Willingham in RF. We are saying the reason Willingham was moved had nothing to do with Revere. The reason Willingham was moved to LF was because he wasn't comfortable in RF.

[BD57]

IMO - please note what that means - Gardy's done a decent job.

 

I don't like the way his loyalty plays out sometimes .... seems like we have to use at least two spots in the batting order on guys who've proven they can't hit a lick. Punto getting as many starts as he did, Bartlett getting buried at AAA for as long as he was, things like that.

 

But, ultimately, stuff like that doesn't happen in a vacuum; if the front office put guys who were clearly better on the 40 man, we wouldn't have heard so much about guys battling their tail off, etc.

 

Look at the batting order. How many of the slots are filled with guys who rate out at "league average starter or better"? Mauer, yes; Willingham, yes; Morneau, if he recovers his game, yes ... after that? As a unit, it that batting order "league average or better?"

 

When we play defense, are the 8 guys we run out there "league average or better?"

 

We know the answer where starting pitching is concerned. And, IMO, there was only one stretch - and that stretch was over by the time post-season began (2006 - injuries to Radke & Liriano) - when we had "post-season worthy starting pitching."

 

We've done pretty well with rosters which were outgunned by the time we got to the post-season. Gardy has something to do with it ... but he has the same shortcomings as the rosters he took to the post season. Pretty good, but not great; better than average, but you don't play "average" in the post season.

 

We'll see how Gardy manages this season - is he able to do what Tom Kelly did right before he retired?

[Thrylos]

 

We've done pretty well with rosters which were outgunned by the time we got to the post-season. Gardy has something to do with it ... but he has the same shortcomings as the rosters he took to the post season. Pretty good, but not great; better than average, but you don't play "average" in the post season.

 

Rewind to 2006 when the Twins had both the Cy Young award winner and the MVP award winner, the team led the league in Batting average, Pitcher K's and BBs, had the second best league ERA and were picked by the "experts" of ESPN before the post-season started to win it all in the post-season. And then three and out happened (again) against the Athletics...

[Mr. Brooks]

Rewind to 2006 when the Twins had both the Cy Young award winner and the MVP award winner, the team led the league in Batting average, Pitcher K's and BBs, had the second best league ERA and were picked by the "experts" of ESPN before the post-season started to win it all in the post-season. And then three and out happened (again) against the Athletics...

 

Not only this^^^, but I grow tired of the, "of course we lost, the Yankees were better, the Yankees spend more money, etc." argument, considering that the Yankees only won the world series one time in all those years that they swept us.

NEWSFLASH: The "best team" on paper, or the most expensive team doesnt HAVE to win. Go out and be the Rangers, or the Rays and beat them anyway. It's not like they didn't have plenty of chances.

[twinsnorth49]

Jeez. If I had facts it wouldnt be an opinion, now would it?

Is it okay if I state an opinion, on a baseball message board, is that cool with you?

Or should this board be limited to facts only?

I can get facts at baseball reference, I come to places like this to hear peoples opinions.

 

And, FYI, I went back and counted. 8 times I used the words "I think" and/or "I don't think", 1 time I used the words "in my opinion, and 1 time I used the phrase, "of course I can't know".

 

That is 10 times that I went out of my way to make sure it was clear that entire post was opinion, and not fact.

But, again, maybe 10 times in one post is not enough to be clear to everyone. Most people, probably, but not everyone.

 

Oh, I got the "opinion" part, it's my opinion that opinions on clubhouse dynamics and what goes on between players are lame.

[glunn]

I am admiring how people are debating furiously in this thread without violating TD policy. A few of you have tickled the edges of the policy, but no one has lost control.

 

If I believe those who feel that the manager is not that important, then it seems to me that perhaps they should not care very much whether Gardy stays or goes.

 

I believe that the manager is pretty important and it seemed to me last season that, at times, a losing mentality took hold. I personally feel that Gardy might have done more to get the best from every player.

 

I may be 100% wrong, because what goes on inside the clubhouse is not well known, but Thrylos's rewind to the unspeakable horror of 2006, plus the seemingly innumerable humiliations at the hands of the Yankees, plus my impressions of a losing mentality during parts of last season make me want to see a new manager. I remember watching games against Texas and Tampa Bay last year and wishing that the Twins could trade managers. On the other hand, I hope that Gardy wins manager of the year this year, because that will mean that the Twins have been awesome.

[CDog]

Bolded part: You don't move a guy from RF to LF to make room for your 4th OF'er. That is why that matters.

 

The rest: Nobody is arguing that the plan coming into ST was Revere in LF, Span in CF, Willingham in RF. We are saying the reason Willingham was moved had nothing to do with Revere. The reason Willingham was moved to LF was because he wasn't comfortable in RF.

 

You seemed to imply that in an earlier post saying the decision was made before having anything to do with Revere. I apologize if I misinterpreted that. But yes, it did have to do with Revere (according to what everyone said at the time...maybe it was just saving face or something duplicitous).

 

Sequence of events...

 

1) Pre-spring training, expected outfield is Revere, Span, Hammer with Revere in left I think because of his weaker arm. 2) Spring training starts and they play games with that alignment. 3) Revere has trouble in left (I thought I remembered his quote being about routes and getting to balls...I was wrong, and it was about throws, but the point stands...I'm almost certain other people made comment about him actually getting to them, even if he himself did not). 4) THEN, since Hammer had been moved to make room for Revere over there and Revere was no longer going to be playing there...he was moved back.

 

That's what was said at the time. Again...I suppose it's possible they were saving face for Willingham not feeling OK in right. But that would be just inventing story, I think. AND...going back to the very original quote that got me down this weary path...even if that WAS the case, then Gardenhire did try to get the veteran to try something out of his comfort zone. It didn't work out.

[CDog]

I believe that the manager is pretty important and it seemed to me last season that, at times, a losing mentality took hold. I personally feel that Gardy might have done more to get the best from every player.

 

 

During a particularly rough patch last year, USAFChief wrote a fairly long post about something close to what you're saying there. It made me sad that I felt myself agreeing with it. I think I replied at the time, and will state again now, that I don't think it would be my choice to let him go (at that time or this time), but I could understand if it happened and wouldn't really be able to make a really strong argument against it. If it does happen, I would hope for it to be early in an off-season, though.

 

And also just to be clear, I think having a team that isn't playing well, or even having that ugly mentality creep in is pretty different than having anyone quit on the team or the manager.

[Benchwarmerjim]

Its hard to compare basketball and baseball but this Gardy situation kind of reminds me of the Tubby Smith situation. Smith was well liked by the national folks but the locals are bubbling up with angst because of mediocre to poor results, baffling offense/rotation, and at some points lack of fundamentals (cant break a press, a zone, or run a simple inbound play).

 

Gardy with baffling lineups, an erosion of fundamentals from the players or the years, and 2 years of disappointment (and all those playoff failures) and the fanbase's cry for a change is getting louder.