Rosenthal Article: Let Gardenhire go? That'd be lame.

[cmb0252]

I don't know if this has already been posted but I found it to be a solid read. Link below:

Minnesota Twins may lose 90-plus games again this year ... but should keep lame-duck manager Ron Gardenhire anyway - MLB News | FOX Sports on MSN

[Boom Boom]

Rosenthal says the last two seasons aren't Gardenhire's fault.

 

That logic wouldn't save a manager's job in any other market. Even if the organizational collapse didn't have everything to do with Gardenhire, it did have something to do with him.

[raindog]

I put about as much blame on Gardy for how terrible the last two seasons were than I give him credit for the winning years. Not much.

 

Still, I don't think he's a good manager. It's too easy to get in his dog house and I don't like his managing style. Batting terrible infielders 2nd, etc. I won't cry if he is let go after this season.

[SweetOne69]

I agree that the w/l record wasn't Gardy's fault. But the appearance that he lost control of the team and that the younger players quit playing for him is his fault.

[CDog]

I agree that the w/l record wasn't Gardy's fault. But the appearance that he lost control of the team and that the younger players quit playing for him is his fault.

 

I'm curious which young (or old) players quit. I'll also mention that a professional athlete, especially a young fringe player (I don't think they had any young stars, did they?), that quits on a season is to blame far more than his manager or coach in my eyes.

[ThePuck]

I'm curious which young (or old) players quit. I'll also mention that a professional athlete, especially a young fringe player (I don't think they had any young stars, did they?), that quits on a season is to blame far more than his manager or coach in my eyes.

 

Gardy, during an interview on ESPN1500 after the 2011 season, said some of the young guys got defensive with him, not wanting to listen, and he even said they complained about him, 'throwing them under the bus'. I used to have this link and I've posted it a few time on the MLB site, but no matter how hard I try to find it again, I can't.

[Guest USAFChief]

I've always defended Gardy, but have come to the conclusion that, after a decade, it's time for a new manager.

[LaBombo]

I put about as much blame on Gardy for how terrible the last two seasons were than I give him credit for the winning years. Not much.

 

Yup. Interesting that Rosenthal cites Gardenhire's record of reaching the postseason but not his utter futility there, and BP's acknowledgement of his intangible clubhouse value but not their scathing criticisms of his tactical failings in the playoffs.

 

Gardy's a good guy and a decent manager, but the idea that retaining him is some sort of no-brainer strikes me as the kind of thing you end up saying when you depend on amicable access to an important source for your journalistic livelihood. That's not a knock on Ken in particular, just what seems to be a beat writer fact of life.

[jokin]

Gardy, during an interview on ESPN1500 after the 2011 season, said some of the young guys got defensive with him, not wanting to listen, and he even said they complained about him, 'throwing them under the bus'. I used to have this link and I've posted it a few time on the MLB site, but no matter how hard I try to find it again, I can't.

 

The quitting began with the veterans. The club was absolutely dead in the water until the one mini-run they had in June and early July, which took place with a crazy-quilt lineup of SPs no one had ever heard of before and rookies and fringe players making up a significant portion of the lineup.

 

It's funny that some posters have played the "whipping boy" issue as an indictment on the fans. Gardy is expert at throwing collective blame for failure on his favorite whipping boys, usually the less-established youngsters.

[Aaron Cross]

I've always defended Gardy, but have come to the conclusion that, after a decade, it's time for a new manager.

Couldn't agree more. That's baseball. No matter how good a manager is, they run their course and time comes for change. The same ole same ole just gets old and stale. Players don't respond, etc. Definitely time for a change.

[jokin]

Couldn't agree more. That's baseball. No matter how good a manager is, they run their course and time comes for change. The same ole same ole just gets old and stale. Players don't respond, etc. Definitely time for a change.

 

 

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSaPEdhpmNRjERo0FQGFF2fVhDBZaBvLDuJyxsxsg42TQbob-nu

[The Wise One]

The quitting began with the veterans. The club was absolutely dead in the water until the one mini-run they had in June and early July, which took place with a crazy-quilt lineup of SPs no one had ever heard of before and rookies and fringe players making up a significant portion of the lineup.

 

It's funny that some posters have played the "whipping boy" issue as an indictment on the fans. Gardy is expert at throwing collective blame for failure on his favorite whipping boys, usually the less-established youngsters.

 

Yes it wrong for Gardenhire to have a public doghouse. It is also wrong for fans to rip on someone that plays as hard as they can but has limited ability. There are players like Butera and Florimon playing because the team has no better options than them. They play to the best of their ability. If they quit doing so that would be a different matter.

[bird]

No one quit.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

I agree that the w/l record wasn't Gardy's fault. But the appearance that he lost control of the team and that the younger players quit playing for him is his fault.

 

I don't think the younger players quit playing for him. They just were bad at baseball. There weren't really any good young prospects playing last year.

[Kobs]

Good Bullpen = Gardy is good at managing bullpens.

Bad Bullpen = Bad pitchers.

90 Wins = Gardy is a great manager.

90 Losses = Not his fault.

[Mr. Brooks]

I think the real problem lies with the makeup of the roster.

IMO, and I may be in the minority, every locker room needs an outspoken veteran voice that can police the locker room. The manager can't be expected to do it every time, because if he has to, then eventually guys are going to get tired of the same voice, and stop listening. And that, more than anything Gardy did or didnt do right/wrong, is what has happened.

Plus, I think guys put more weight behind something said to them by a peer, especially if its a veteran who is regarded as a good player, than they do coming from an authority figure that they may feel they "have" to listen to.

We used to have guys like Hunter and Pierzynski who, while many fans may not have liked, were not afraid to speak up, and get in the face of a younger player (or even a veteran) and set them straight when necessary.

I just dont think this team has anyone like that, and I just don't think its possible for the manager to police the team and the locker room alone.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think we have plenty of veteran leaders on this club (Mauer, Morneau, Carroll, Willingham), but I think (ofc I can't know this) they are more of the 'quiet, lead by example' types. And there is nothing wrong with that, it's just that I think that every team needs 1 of the other type too.

[The Wise One]

I think the real problem lies with the makeup of the roster.

IMO, and I may be in the minority, every locker room needs an outspoken veteran voice that can police the locker room. The manager can't be expected to do it every time, because if he has to, then eventually guys are going to get tired of the same voice, and stop listening. And that, more than anything Gardy did or didnt do right/wrong, is what has happened.

Plus, I think guys put more weight behind something said to them by a peer, especially if its a veteran who is regarded as a good player, than they do coming from an authority figure that they may feel they "have" to listen to.

We used to have guys like Hunter and Pierzynski who, while many fans may not have liked, were not afraid to speak up, and get in the face of a younger player (or even a veteran) and set them straight when necessary.

I just dont think this team has anyone like that, and I just don't think its possible for the manager to police the team and the locker room alone.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think we have plenty of veteran leaders on this club (Mauer, Morneau, Carroll, Willingham), but I think (ofc I can't know this) they are more of the 'quiet, lead by example' types. And there is nothing wrong with that, it's just that I think that every team needs 1 of the other type too.

 

With what they say to each other, they all might have the common sense to keep what they say and think to themselves. They may be very clear in expressing what they think without having to resort to being loud, or physical. letting the media in on what you say to others and what you think of othres is not leadership. That is merely drawing attention to yourself.

[Thrylos]

Wonder how many Twins games Rosenthal watched in full the last couple seasons? Two? Three? The last decade? Twenty? Twenty five?

 

He is better suited to opine about matters he has intimate knowledge of and not hearsay knowledge, like his Yankees and Red Sox and such. Want to see him write a diatribe about why Valentine should have not been fired as well (while his Red Sox compiled a better record than Gardenhire's Twins last season.)

[DaveW]

Wonder how many Twins games Rosenthal watched in full the last couple seasons? Two? Three? The last decade? Twenty? Twenty five?

 

He is better suited to opine about matters he has intimate knowledge of and not hearsay knowledge, like his Yankees and Red Sox and such. Want to see him write a diatribe about why Valentine should have not been fired as well (while his Red Sox compiled a better record than Gardenhire's Twins last season.)

Why do you bring up the last decade? Pretty sure Gardy lead them to the division title in like half of those seasons, success like that isn't exactly common place in many sports, much less MLB.

[Thrylos]

Why do you bring up the last decade? Pretty sure Gardy lead them to the division title in like half of those seasons, success like that isn't exactly common place in many sports, much less MLB.

 

Point is that Rosenthal does not know the Twins and cannot form an opinion based on hearsay. Brought the last decade as a measuring stick of the Twins' games Rosenthal watched; not of Gardenhire's and the Twins' limited success during that time.

[twinsnorth49]

I think the real problem lies with the makeup of the roster.

IMO, and I may be in the minority, every locker room needs an outspoken veteran voice that can police the locker room. The manager can't be expected to do it every time, because if he has to, then eventually guys are going to get tired of the same voice, and stop listening. And that, more than anything Gardy did or didnt do right/wrong, is what has happened.

 

Really? You know this? Tell me more about what goes on in the Twins clubhouse.

 

It may very well be time for Gardy to go, just because it's been a pretty long run, not because of any percieved failures. He fills in the lineup card, he's won, he's lost, he's a product of his talent, much like most managers.

[DaveW]

Point is that Rosenthal does not know the Twins and cannot form an opinion based on hearsay. Brought the last decade as a measuring stick of the Twins' games Rosenthal watched; not of Gardenhire's and the Twins' limited success during that time.

Yes, clearly a guy (not to mention one of the most respected around any more) who is PAID a good amount of money to know and report about baseball for a major media company knows nothing about the Twins.

 

If only he had such reptubible sources that mentioned that Baker had a 3 year contract from the Twins...then maybe we would take his word at more than face value. (No offense but you walked right into this one saying he doesn't know what he is talking about)

[LastOnePicked]

I don't rely on national sports writers to diagnose the hometown team's problems or prescribe their cures. I respect Gardenhire, perhaps even more than I've let on, but you put us in the AL East during that same period of his tenure, and NO ONE would be defending his managing style at this point. Gardy has been the beneficiary of a very weak division (just imagine if Detroit and Chicago hadn't choked down the stretch during some of those division title years), and we've seen how far he can take a team, even with Cy Young winners and MVPs on the roster. Many of us would like to try someone who could take a team farther.

[cmathewson]

I think last year was his best year as manager. After his entire rotation disintegrated, he still managed to have some success in the middle three months, before falling off in September. Leyland thought he deserved votes for manager of the year, as strange as that sounds.

 

I mostly don't buy Rosenthal's premise that we'll lose 90 games again. There is almost no chance the rotation will be as bad as it was last year. Even if the top 3 starters have ERAs in the 5's in Mid May, it will be better than last year. Meanwhile, the offense (mostly at 3, 5 and 9) and defense (2, 4, 6, and 8) should be better.

[DaveW]

I don't rely on national sports writers to diagnose the hometown team's problems or prescribe their cures. but you put us in the AL East during that same period of his tenure, .

 

But the Twins WEREN'T and AREN'T in the AL East, how is this held against Gardy? If the Ravens were in the NFC West this year they would have missed the playoffs, does that mean John Harbaugh didn't do a great job this year?

[Mike Sixel]

So Gardy gets credit when teams are good, but no blame when the team is bad? Priceless job.

[DaveW]

So Gardy gets credit when teams are good, but no blame when the team is bad? Priceless job.

Who said that?

[Mike Sixel]

Isn't Rosenthals argument that hardy is a good manager...just look at all of his success in the past? But he should not be held accountable now because it is not his fault?

[Mr. Brooks]

Really? You know this? Tell me more about what goes on in the Twins clubhouse.

 

It may very well be time for Gardy to go, just because it's been a pretty long run, not because of any percieved failures. He fills in the lineup card, he's won, he's lost, he's a product of his talent, much like most managers.

 

I thought I made it pretty clear that all of that was my opinion.

I guess I should have said it a few more times...

[jmlease1]

One of Gardy's skills as a manager is he's pretty good at dealing with the media and they like him. (It is a good skill to have) But it also means he gets protected from his flaws & failures more than other managers would. Local & even national media guys will talk about things like "intangibles" and running a good clubhouse, etc and assigning blame for the team's struggles elsewhere.

 

Gardy's not a bad manager. But he's not a great one either. He's not particularly creative. He doesn't seem to pay enough attention to obvious stats. He prefers to keep his veteran players happy over challenging them to do something else that might favor the team. (last year's outfield alignment is a perfect example: Willingham was in LF because he was "more comfortable there", Span was in CF because "he likes it", and Revere was in RF because that was what was left, when the best defensive alignment was almost certainly Span in LF, Revere in CF, and Willingham in RF)

 

Gardy hasn't always had a good track record with young players, so with a new wave of young guys coming up on this team it's a fair question to ask if he's going to be the right guy to lead the club with the next wave. He doesn't have the tactical skills or creativity to fall back on if he starts losing the team and not developing the prospects.

 

Rosenthal doesn't care about any of that. He just looked at some stats, looked at the roster for the last couple of years, remembered he got his quotes and had pleasant interviews with Gardy and backed his guy. He also doesn't know much about Twins ownership; Jim Pohlad isn't going to can Terry Ryan in order to dump the manager, and Ryan isn't going to keep Gardy if he thinks the manager is the wrong guy to lead the team in the future.