Shoemaker: "Twins way screwed me up"

[RpR]

15 hours ago, RonCoomersOPS said:

If Jack Morris were on my pitching staff and he tried to undercut my pitching coach like this, he'd meet the same fate that Shoemaker did.

And your team would look like the 2021 Twins.?

[Cagycat]

On 7/29/2021 at 11:06 PM, Seth Stohs said:

https://www.twincities.com/2021/07/29/shoemaker-says-twins-way-screwed-him-up/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

 

John Shipley from the Pioneer Press wrote that RHP Matt Shoemaker blamed himself for not saying No. When free agents are signed, coaches work with them to try to make them better. Sometimes it helps. For Shoemaker,  it didn't. 

 

Interesting points throughout the article.

There’s a lot to be said about Shoemakers comments, I’ve often wondered about the twins pitching coaches. Seems to me many Twins pitchers after leaving go on to excel with organizations. Let’s see how Berrios does with the blue jays, then discuss the coaches some more.

[Otto von Ballpark]

And now, Shoemaker has been released:

 

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

And now, Shoemaker has been released:

 

Did he get an opportunity elsewhere?

[Dodecahedron]

1 hour ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

And now, Shoemaker has been released:

 

This leaves little doubt as to how the Twins took his interview.

Shoemaker is now free to sign with any team with the Twins paying his salary.  Hooray?

[h2oface]

I hated the Shoemaker (and Happ) signings, and hate them even more now. But this headline is click bait, and what Shoemaker said was harmless and honest. That is his take. It very well could be the best take, and the most accurate for what happened with him. Billy Bob says it best......

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

"Comments that probably didn't need to be made"

[Otto von Ballpark]

1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

Did he get an opportunity elsewhere?

Nothing immediate, no.

[mike8791]

Not going to defend either party here, as there's no way of knowing what really happened, but I think its fair to bring up whether Twins were thin-skinned here in this release.  Many of us have questionned this FO's(and their coaching staff's) ability to find and develop pitching talent.  No doubt, the Shoe was in the twilight of his career, but that doesn't mean we can totally dismiss his comments as "sour grapes".  There are just too many failures on the part of Falvine in identifying real pitching talent, not only in FA but in minor league development, as well.  How many nuggets have they unearthed in their almost 5 years at the helm?  How many prospects who they let go who have flourished elsewhere?

I have always complained about this FO's hubris.  They think they are smarter than old school GM's, not because of their talent evaluation, but because of their mastery of new technology.  How far has that gotten us?  They first selected a pitching coach, Alston, who had no discernible skills when hired.  They quickly jettisoned him for a college whizkid in Wes Johnson who had some initial success but has failed to develop even one prospect.  On the offense side, they seem to have struck pay dirt in James Rowson, but didn't retain him.  This whole Shoemaker episode smacks of small-mindedness(on both sides) and sheds little credit on Twins management..  I can only hope they succeed in turning things around quickly, but have lost  confidence in their abilities. 

[Linus]

I’ve been highly critical of this FO pitching development. However the mistake they made with Shoemaker was signing him in the first place. I couldn’t care less about his demotion or release. He’s done and his excuse making only makes it worse. 
 

if you want to legitimately look at FO mistakes start with Luis Gil for Jake Cave. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

16 hours ago, mike8791 said:

There are just too many failures on the part of Falvine in identifying real pitching talent, not only in FA but in minor league development, as well.  How many nuggets have they unearthed in their almost 5 years at the helm?  How many prospects who they let go who have flourished elsewhere?

2021 has been rough, but it should be noted that Pineda, Maeda, and Odorizzi all had career-best performances as Twins under this FO and pitching coach. On the bullpen side, Rogers and May turned into pretty good late-inning relievers under them, and we got a couple outstanding seasons out of Duffey too and assorted pen guys like Clippard.

Those guys are probably the most directly comparable to Shoemaker, as established MLB pitchers. Minor league development would be a separate issue and not really applicable to Shoemaker's complaints, although still a legitimate area of concern.

[gunnarthor]

1 hour ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

2021 has been rough, but it should be noted that Pineda, Maeda, and Odorizzi all had career-best performances as Twins under this FO and pitching coach. On the bullpen side, Rogers and May turned into pretty good late-inning relievers under them, and we got a couple outstanding seasons out of Duffey too and assorted pen guys like Clippard.

Those guys are probably the most directly comparable to Shoemaker, as established MLB pitchers. Minor league development would be a separate issue and not really applicable to Shoemaker's complaints, although still a legitimate area of concern.

That's not quite fair, though. Odorizzi's 2019 was his best (or tied for best) 3.3 WAR season. But 2018 was his second worst full-season (although this season probably will push it to third).

Pineda's best seasons, by bWAR, were 2014 and 2011. His 2019 tied 2011 (2.2 WAR) but this season is on pace to be his worst fullseason, or close to it.

Maeda is a bit more complicated b/c his best season was COVID shortened and I argued in the offseason that it wasn't really a true reflection of his ability. But, even if we give him full credit for 2020, his 2021 will easily be his worst season ever.

[Dodecahedron]

21 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

That's not quite fair, though. Odorizzi's 2019 was his best (or tied for best) 3.3 WAR season. But 2018 was his second worst full-season (although this season probably will push it to third).

Pineda's best seasons, by bWAR, were 2014 and 2011. His 2019 tied 2011 (2.2 WAR) but this season is on pace to be his worst fullseason, or close to it.

Maeda is a bit more complicated b/c his best season was COVID shortened and I argued in the offseason that it wasn't really a true reflection of his ability. But, even if we give him full credit for 2020, his 2021 will easily be his worst season ever.

Agreed.  Plus, Taylor was always good.

[Mike Sixel]

20 minutes ago, gunnarthor said:

That's not quite fair, though. Odorizzi's 2019 was his best (or tied for best) 3.3 WAR season. But 2018 was his second worst full-season (although this season probably will push it to third).

Pineda's best seasons, by bWAR, were 2014 and 2011. His 2019 tied 2011 (2.2 WAR) but this season is on pace to be his worst fullseason, or close to it.

Maeda is a bit more complicated b/c his best season was COVID shortened and I argued in the offseason that it wasn't really a true reflection of his ability. But, even if we give him full credit for 2020, his 2021 will easily be his worst season ever.

Missing the point imo, that the FO isn't inept at finding pitchers.......which is what many on this site are claiming.

They blew it this year, and haven't developed a minor league pitcher yet, but to say they know nothing about pitching and haven't found any in their time here (going from like 29th to top ten in ERA) seems to be just a bit of an exaggeration to me.

[Dodecahedron]

40 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Missing the point imo, that the FO isn't inept at finding pitchers.......which is what many on this site are claiming.

They blew it this year, and haven't developed a minor league pitcher yet, but to say they know nothing about pitching and haven't found any in their time here (going from like 29th to top ten in ERA) seems to be just a bit of an exaggeration to me.

That inability to develop a pitcher has resulted in a teamful of pretty bad pitchers.  It sort of eclipses everything else.  I'm not sure it's possible to exaggerate that, it's THE problem.

But it's more than the problem, it's the entire situation....

[Otto von Ballpark]

2 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

That's not quite fair, though. Odorizzi's 2019 was his best (or tied for best) 3.3 WAR season. But 2018 was his second worst full-season (although this season probably will push it to third).

Pineda's best seasons, by bWAR, were 2014 and 2011. His 2019 tied 2011 (2.2 WAR) but this season is on pace to be his worst fullseason, or close to it.

Maeda is a bit more complicated b/c his best season was COVID shortened and I argued in the offseason that it wasn't really a true reflection of his ability. But, even if we give him full credit for 2020, his 2021 will easily be his worst season ever.

The post to which I was responding also implicated the coaching staff, and Wes Johnson didn't join the staff until the 2019 season. Can't hold Odorizzi's 2018 against him too much!

On Pineda, his ERA+ in every season as a Twin has been better than any other season of his career, with the exception of 76 innings in 2014. A cumulative 112 ERA+ as a Twin, and 107 this year at age 32, compared to 101 with each of NYY and SEA. Maybe other metrics narrow that gap but he's certainly not a failure of the coaching staff or front office.

Maeda's performance has been up and down -- but again, hardly a failure overall. His 110 cumulative ERA+ as a Twin is still better than his 105 as a Dodger. And depending on the metric, even Maeda's difficult 2021 isn't much different than at least one of his Dodgers seasons as a starter:

#	Season	Name	Team	ERA-	FIP-	xFIP-
1	2021	Kenta Maeda	MIN	107	101	90
2	2020	Kenta Maeda	MIN	60	67	59
3	2019	Kenta Maeda	LAD	99	91	94
4	2018	Kenta Maeda	LAD	100	82	86
5	2017	Kenta Maeda	LAD	105	98	91
6	2016	Kenta Maeda	LAD	87	88	90

And he's been great since July 1st, with time left to improve those 2021 season numbers even more.

That's not to say the front office and coaching staff have been perfect -- far from it. But there's not much evidence to suggest that they've been particularly deficient in their handling of veteran pitchers, as that other post claimed.