What Happened Between Josh Donaldson and Luis Arraez?

[wsnydes]

Much ado about nothing.  That's a veteran player calling out a younger player for not being ready for a pitch.  That's the sort of thing I would expect to happen.  Arraez needs to be ready for the pitch too.

I don't know why Rocco would need to be in on this.  Cruz and Watkins had it under control.  That's why you have a coaching staff and bring in veteran players.  The fact that the manager isn't involved should tell you how severe this is/isn't.  

[pipers44]

To me, it is a mountain/molehill thing but the mountain is made by Donaldson reacting the way he did. He could have simply called time, stepped out, given Arraez a little nonverbal head nod and get back in the box. Then have a subtle conversation in the dugout/tunnel to make sure everyone is on the same page. I like a player with some fire as much as the next guy, but Donaldson is all about Donaldson and I think he rubs a lot of his teammates the wrong way.  Or maybe he just rubs me the wrong way. ?

[In My La Z boy]

4 minutes ago, pipers44 said:

To me, it is a mountain/molehill thing but the mountain is made by Donaldson reacting the way he did. He could have simply called time, stepped out, given Arraez a little nonverbal head nod and get back in the box. Then have a subtle conversation in the dugout/tunnel to make sure everyone is on the same page. I like a player with some fire as much as the next guy, but Donaldson is all about Donaldson and I think he rubs a lot of his teammates the wrong way.  Or maybe he just rubs me the wrong way. ?

Donaldson has only been on one sub .500 team in his career. He is a winner and he wants to win. I do not understand the dislike for Donaldson except to say we are all too Minnesota nice apparently. Trade him to a team that wants to win and plays like it.

[chaderic20]

Considering Rocco can do nothing right according to these forums I'm sure if he had intervened there'd be a big article and barrage of comments saying he was squashing his players fiery competitive spirit and babying them, etc.

I have no problem with Rocco not stepping in here, Cruz and Watkins were both right there. And that conversation was nowhere close to getting out of hand. It barely, if even, qualifies as "heated" in my opinion. Josh could have handled it better than calling out his teammate on the field, but to me it looked and sounded like all he said was "Come on, let's go!" cuz Arraez clearly was not ready for the play to start, whether he was checking the outfielders positioning or staring out at the clouds. 

[MGM4706]

Rocco seems so distant from everything! Always staring into that stupid binder of his in the dugout to see what his next  move should be! He never shows any emotion or gets upset over anything!  Maybe he should be questioning why NONE of the kids coming up have any clue on how to play the fence. Put your off hand out, find the fence, then catch the ball. NONE of the young guys from Kiroloff, to any of the young outfielders have shown any knowledge of how to do that. Has Rocco said anything to young Mr. Gardenhire in St Paul about this lack of readiness? Or is that not in his binder?

[a-wan]

Where's a leader like Kyle Lohse taking a bat to the manager's door when you need them?

[insagt1]

3 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I'm not sure why anyone feels Baldelli needs to be up in everybody's business about this. While I haven't examined this kind of thing numerically and my experience is anecdotal, I feel coaches, not managers, are typically more involved in dugout confrontations/discussions of this kind. If the manager needs to intervene, it will probably be done behind closed doors.

There were a few dust-ups in the dugout of those 2000's Twins teams and I never remember Gardy throwing himself into the middle of the situation. I'm sure discussions were had afterward but not right there in the dugout.

interesting comment. In the now 'defunct' AAA International League (may it not R.I.P. but come back roaring from the dead when somebody recognizes the name really meant something...I digress), the manager always coached 3rd base, not another coach. So he was definitely 'in the game' bigtime. Haven't been to a game yet this year, but its probably still the same. So AAA managers probably don't have in-dugout flaps with players during the game. They are too busy monitoring the game as it happens.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, MGM4706 said:

Rocco seems so distant from everything! Always staring into that stupid binder of his in the dugout to see what his next  move should be! He never shows any emotion or gets upset over anything!  Maybe he should be questioning why NONE of the kids coming up have any clue on how to play the fence. Put your off hand out, find the fence, then catch the ball. NONE of the young guys from Kiroloff, to any of the young outfielders have shown any knowledge of how to do that. Has Rocco said anything to young Mr. Gardenhire in St Paul about this lack of readiness? Or is that not in his binder?

Not sure why that would be Rocco's job. I can't imagine any MLB managers have a great deal of say in the development practices of their organization. Generally speaking managers who are hired are people the front office and owner feel match their approaches to the game. You don't hire an MLB manager and ask them to setup development plans for minor leaguers. They quite literally have other employees who's entire job is to create, and ensure execution of, those plans. 

And Rocco's job during a game is to be ready for numerous possibilities at all times. He should be staring at his binder (one that literally every major league manager has, by the way) far more often than stepping in on conversations between players in the dugout. The only reason anyone is talking about this at all is because of the on the field portion. If Donaldson and Arraez don't have a back and forth on the field nobody even mentions the conversation they had in the dugout. That happens at least 100 times a season. No manager should be worrying themselves with intervening on every disagreement in the dugout. Coaches and teammates need to handle that.

[USAFChief]

A couple observations:

 

1. I doubt this was a one off disagreement between Donaldson and Arraez. I suspect there's some history between the two. I can't imagine it would have gotten heated if not for some previous ... ill will.

 

2. Arraez nonchalant baserunning is just another example of the poor quality baseball we're seeing under Baldelli. Not poor talent...poor baseball.  I gotta believe that rubs Donaldson the wrong way. I know it does me, and I'm just watching from 2000 miles away. 

 

 

 

[Squirrel]

19 hours ago, Tom Froemming said:

Rocco Baldelli was noticeably absent while the interaction was taking place. Is this something to be concerned about?

No, not imo.

 

19 hours ago, Tom Froemming said:

Again, there’s likely some context we’re missing.

----------

Speaking of making a mountain out of a molehill, it’s entirely possible that’s exactly what I’m doing here.

Imo, yes, and yes.

[prouster]

37 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

A couple observations:

 

1. I doubt this was a one off disagreement between Donaldson and Arraez. I suspect there's some history between the two. I can't imagine it would have gotten heated if not for some previous ... ill will.

 

2. Arraez nonchalant baserunning is just another example of the poor quality baseball we're seeing under Baldelli. Not poor talent...poor baseball.  I gotta believe that rubs Donaldson the wrong way. I know it does me, and I'm just watching from 2000 miles away. 

 

 

 

The bad fundamentals seem to be league-wide and not Twins specific, in my opinion. My theory is that it’s the result of the growing influence of showcase circuits at the amateur level. Youth players learn how to flex specific tools rather than how to play fundamentally tight baseball. 

[Dodecahedron]

4 hours ago, chaderic20 said:

Considering Rocco can do nothing right according to these forums I'm sure if he had intervened there'd be a big article and barrage of comments saying he was squashing his players fiery competitive spirit and babying them, etc.

Anything is possible, but I would say probably not since the criticism around Baldelli is that he doesn't seem to be doing much of anything.

In any case, people are allowed to talk to each other and really that's the only way to solve problems.  There was no pushing or shoving, so there is just nothing here to get involved with.

However, one could argue that Baldelli should have been the one getting on Arraez for not paying attention, not a player.

[Dodecahedron]

29 minutes ago, prouster said:

The bad fundamentals seem to be league-wide and not Twins specific, in my opinion. My theory is that it’s the result of the growing influence of showcase circuits at the amateur level. Youth players learn how to flex specific tools rather than how to play fundamentally tight baseball. 

The fundamentals don't impress the writers posing as scouts, apparently. 

[Dodecahedron]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Not sure why that would be Rocco's job. I can't imagine any MLB managers have a great deal of say in the development practices of their organization.

This would be fun to say to Tom Kelly to watch his head explode.

If Tom Kelly isn't around, you can probably throw this gem out there at nearly any multiple world series-winning manager with similar results.  Be sure to film it as I would love to see the reaction.

[purplesoldier4u]

No big deal.

[lecroy24fan]

Rocco said on the pregame show that it doesn't always need to be staff to get involved with these kind of discussions. And he's right. Donaldson is a veteran and I have no problem with how he handled it in the dugout.

[jaimedude]

This is baseball and things like this happen. I don't blame the players for getting after each other a little bit. I would be more concerned if we didn't have interactions like this on the Twins because that would mean the players just don't give a rip or S about this game or any other game at this point in the season. It's no big deal really and I have no problem with how either player handled this type of situation. Like I said I would be more concerned if people especially the players, just didn't care.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Dodecahedron said:

This would be fun to say to Tom Kelly to watch his head explode.

If Tom Kelly isn't around, you can probably throw this gem out there at nearly any multiple world series-winning manager with similar results.  Be sure to film it as I would love to see the reaction.

Are you suggesting Tom Kelly was setting prospect development plans for the Twins? Cuz I think you're wrong. Did he coach prospects at spring training? Absolutely. Was it his job to ensure prospects showed up to the majors knowing how to play the wall (that was the suggestion I was replying to)? Absolutely not.

[operation mindcrime]

On 7/19/2021 at 9:18 AM, AceWrigley said:

TC Bear.

He'd probably do a better job! 

[Murph]

On 7/18/2021 at 8:35 PM, Tom Froemming said:

The Bally Sports North broadcast captured a somewhat heated discussion between Josh Donaldson and Luis Arraez during today’s game. Rocco Baldelli was noticeably absent while the interaction was taking place. Is this something to be concerned about?

In case you missed it, here's a video of what went down.

With Donaldson at the plate, Arraez was slow to get his lead off of second base. This led to Donaldson calling time and shouting something to Arraez, who reacted by lifting his arms up as if to say “what?”

The two appeared to be discussing that situation in the dugout between innings. According to Justin Morneau, they were also talking as they took the field and continued their conversation in the tunnel after that half inning. We don’t know the full details of what exactly was going on, and maybe never will, but this certainly feels from an outside perspective that Donaldson was making a mountain out of a molehill. Or possibly it was Arraez who was doing that. Again, there’s likely some context we’re missing.

One thing we do know by what we have here is that the mediators present during the first interaction in the dugout were mainly Nelson Cruz and first base coach Tommy Watkins. Noticeably absent: Rocco Baldelli.

It probably wouldn’t be fair to expect a manager to be involved in every conversation between his players, but this certainly feels like one where Baldelli should have been present. He’s a player’s manager, and apparently let’s his players police themselves, but this seems to be letting things go a bit too far.

This is the kind of thing that can make you wonder what some of the clubhouse fallout of trading away Cruz will be. If he’s the veteran presence overseeing things, what happens when he’s gone? If Rocco is going to be hands off with these kinds of situations, who’s going to be around to make sure things don’t go too far?

Speaking of making a mountain out of a molehill, it’s entirely possible that’s exactly what I’m doing here. Maybe this is nothing. When you’re following a team that’s 14-games under .500, swept by a bad team in an uninspiring effort and quickly approaching the trade deadline, it’s easy to be concerned when you see stuff like this.

Donaldson’s edge is part of what’s made him a premiere player. That fire is likely much more valuable on a team that’s driving toward the playoffs than one that's trying to stay out of the basement. Nobody likes losing, but Donaldson may be particularly bad at it. He hasn’t had much practice. He’s been on a losing team just once (the 76-86 Toronto Blue Jays). Arraez seems plenty competitive himself, for what it's worth.

What do you think? Anything about this concern you?

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Donaldson was not "right" for the Twins - not on the field nor in the Clubhouse.  As for his talent, that ship has sailed almost completely out of view.  This was a costly move for the Twins - in all ways.  His few jacks are not enough compensation.

[Craig Arko]

My guess is one favors Kate and William, and the other likes Meghan and Harry.

[Nine of twelve]

14 hours ago, Craig Arko said:

My guess is one favors Kate and William, and the other likes Meghan and Harry.

I thought this web site was for the Twins, not the Royals.