Avoiding disaster

[theBOMisthebomb]

17 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

This. 100% this. 

Tanking is wrong and goes against the laws of nature. 

[TwinsDr2021]

13 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

6 innings a start? That's more than most starts this year.....across the entire league.

 Just because the rest of the league is turning every pitcher in to a glorified relief pitcher doesn't make it right, or remotely interesting to watch, also doesn't really seem to be working at keeping pitches healthy. Watching a Twins game with Rocco managing is frustrating and annoying and makes me turn the game off. You know the first sign of trouble after the 3rd he is mostly likely taking the starter out, then running a new relief pitcher out there every inning. It seems to me if you have a pitcher that you have no plans to get close to 100 pitches consistently, he probably shouldn't be starting the game, hey maybe go with a couple of those guys in the same game, so you aren't blowing though your whole bullpen.

To me the philosophy of telling pitchers to go all out for 70-80 pitches and strike out as many guys as possible, be damned that you only pitch 4 innings is what is causing injuries, but I don't have a medical degree.

[Number3]

As far as draft choices are concerned, having early picks is one thing. Making the right pick is another thing. If its been mentioned I apologize but Twins had the overall #1 pick in 2017 and that pick has languished in the minor leagues since and is now injured. I know he was right out of high school but they had the first pick in the whole draft and that was the Twins' choice.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, Number3 said:

As far as draft choices are concerned, having early picks is one thing. Making the right pick is another thing. If its been mentioned I apologize but Twins had the overall #1 pick in 2017 and that pick has languished in the minor leagues since and is now injured. I know he was right out of high school but they had the first pick in the whole draft and that was the Twins' choice.

"Languished" is an overstatement. Lewis was quite good overall in 2018, scuffled in 2019 MiLB, had a very good AFL in 2019, didn't play in 2020, and is now injured from a freak falling accident during a Texas ice storm (seriously, can't make this stuff up).

At this point, I don't think anyone has any idea what kind of baseball player Royce Lewis is or will be. No one has seen him play a baseball game since the Arizona Fall League in 2019 where he performed well in a small sample size.

[Number3]

Per Brock "... Languished" is an overstatement....."   I looked up "languish" and it is a more dramatic term than I thought. There is a definition along the lines of being forced to remain in an unpleasant place. I was using the word along the lines of treading water or not really making much progress.

[Brock Beauchamp]

15 minutes ago, Number3 said:

Per Brock "... Languished" is an overstatement....."   I looked up "languish" and it is a more dramatic term than I thought. There is a definition along the lines of being forced to remain in an unpleasant place. I was using the word along the lines of treading water or not really making much progress.

Lewis definitely hasn't excelled but I think you're putting too much stock in 2019, which is just one season. Again, Lewis was pretty good in his first full season in 2018.

And we should temper expectations about Lewis' raw batting stats given his promotion rate. Just 25 months after being drafted out of high school, he was facing AA pitching. The Twins were quite aggressive promoting him through the minors before Covid hit and we haven't seen Lewis since that point. We really have no idea how he would have or if he could have adjusted to high minors pitching at a young age.

[TheLeviathan]

Two things:

Yes, picking higher is no guarantee of correct choices.  What it guarantees is more available options.

We should be prepared to further cut Lewis some slack.  The poor kid has missed so much time he will need patience when he returns too.

[Number3]

I will say that baseball is probably much more difficult to evaluate young talent unless they are not just head and shoulders but head and waist above the rest. Gets back to making it simple and trying to win every game one at a time and not looking too far into the future starting Friday with 2 more against Tigers.

[RpR]

98.6 percent of fans could not care less about the draft, in any sport.

Remember Billy Bean.

[TheLeviathan]

1 minute ago, RpR said:

98.6 percent of fans could not care less about the draft, in any sport.

Remember Billy Bean.

You might have had me agree with your sentiment but the NBA and NFL drafts are monumental fan engagement moments year in and year out for a great many fans.

[Brock Beauchamp]

10 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

 Just because the rest of the league is turning every pitcher in to a glorified relief pitcher doesn't make it right, or remotely interesting to watch, also doesn't really seem to be working at keeping pitches healthy. Watching a Twins game with Rocco managing is frustrating and annoying and makes me turn the game off. You know the first sign of trouble after the 3rd he is mostly likely taking the starter out, then running a new relief pitcher out there every inning. It seems to me if you have a pitcher that you have no plans to get close to 100 pitches consistently, he probably shouldn't be starting the game, hey maybe go with a couple of those guys in the same game, so you aren't blowing though your whole bullpen.

To me the philosophy of telling pitchers to go all out for 70-80 pitches and strike out as many guys as possible, be damned that you only pitch 4 innings is what is causing injuries, but I don't have a medical degree.

Except that in the modern game, if you tell a pitcher to ease up they'll get shelled and be out of the game in five innings anyway.

Welcome to the Launch Angle Era.

MLB teams aren't stupid. We're talking about the people who literally run and operate billion dollar franchises. They know what they're doing for the most part. Pitching has become this specialized for a reason: it needed to become this specialized or it wouldn't succeed any longer. Taking a pitcher out after five innings is only partially about health, most of the reason in today's game is about effectiveness. If a mediocre/decent pitcher faces a modern lineup a third (or, gasp, fourth) time, they're going to get smashed and likely exit the game anyway. Except in that smashed scenario, your team also loses 7-4.

Which is why so many of us advocate for rule changes to push baseball back toward a more exciting, action-packed direction. We can't just put the toothpaste back into the tube. Analytics exist, we have that knowledge, and things will not return to the way they were without someone actively pushing them back in that direction, probably by force of rules.

[SanoMustGo]

On 7/13/2021 at 6:48 AM, Number3 said:

What has to be considered, in my opinion, is that at the MLB/NFL/NBA level, there really is not a huge difference between winning and losing. All of the participants have talent or they wouldn't be at that level. 10% improvement in the right area can result in a bunch of wins. Every win is one less loss (how's that for analysis?). How about winning 60% of the games against Tigers, White Sox, and Royals for the rest of the month? Get to about 5 games below .500 with August and Sept. left.

That will NEVER happen with this pitching staff

[insagt1]

actually fans all over the NHL drool over the draft. Its a big deal. I don't think it is in baseball.  Tanking makes me sick in pro sports. Thats why I hate the whole draft process. It is geared towards not achieving...which to me in unacceptable. Pro sports is a business where the fans ante up significant dollars to be entertained. Winning is always more fun than losing.  You must play to win every night and let the pieces fall where they may. Any idea that you should lose inorder to draft 'higher' to 'possibly' get a better player is wrongheaded and I wish the entire draft system was changed to totally take that aspect of 'tanking' or just plain losing out of the way.

Twins may need to make trades, but best to do them in the offseason when they have a shot at getting legit talent (prospects or MLB ready players) Anyone know what major changes Boston and SF made from 20 to 21? Why are they so much better this season?

When I watch the Twins every night, I watch with the expectation that no matter who plays, they go out to win. Period. They aren't making the playoffs this year. But I want them to win as many games as they can with the players they choose to play. And draft picks shouldn't enter into it. Pick # 100 could end up being as good as pick #5. Who really knows? The baseball talent pool is large. Anyway good discussion. no matter what side of it you are on!

[TwinsDr2021]

13 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Except that in the modern game, if you tell a pitcher to ease up they'll get shelled and be out of the game in five innings anyway.

Welcome to the Launch Angle Era.

MLB teams aren't stupid. We're talking about the people who literally run and operate billion dollar franchises. They know what they're doing for the most part. Pitching has become this specialized for a reason: it needed to become this specialized or it wouldn't succeed any longer. Taking a pitcher out after five innings is only partially about health, most of the reason in today's game is about effectiveness. If a mediocre/decent pitcher faces a modern lineup a third (or, gasp, fourth) time, they're going to get smashed and likely exit the game anyway. Except in that smashed scenario, your team also loses 7-4.

Which is why so many of us advocate for rule changes to push baseball back toward a more exciting, action-packed direction. We can't just put the toothpaste back into the tube. Analytics exist, we have that knowledge, and things will not return to the way they were without someone actively pushing them back in that direction, probably by force of rules.

MLB aren't stupid? There are many examples that might say they aren't the brightest either(all star game attendance, TV issues, allowing the game to be almost unwatchable, minor league salaries, etc...)

It isn't new that mediocre/decent pitcher don't pitch a ton of innings or go more than 4,5,6 innings in a start, they are mediocre/decent pitchers. The problem is they are training the pitchers to be 4,5,6 inning pitchers in the minor leagues and never given a chance to stretch out and see if they can become good or better pitchers. How many minor league pitchers in the Twins organization average more than 5 innings in a start? my guess is it is very few, since the next savior of pitchers aren't or are hurt, we are begging to bring up minor league pitchers to see if they can help the Twins in the future and all of these guys are 5 inning minor league's, yea more of watching games like the ones Ober pitches in 3 or 4 inning start, unless he is perfect than maybe he gets to 5 innings, then run out 4 or 5 crappy relief pitchers hoping the offense hits enough homers to make up for how terrible they are, that is can't miss TV.

There are 35 names that come before Jose Berrios in the Quality Start column (he is the Twins pitcher with the most QS) . Some of them are rookies and some I had never heard of before. (also one of them is Kyle Gibson and he has 12)

That is to me isn't a reflection on Berrios it is a direct reflection on the Twins philosophy on pitching, and it seems only recently (IMO) that they have left the starters in a bit longer than normal, just so they don't have to put another crappy relief pitcher in the game.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

MLB aren't stupid? There are many examples that might say they aren't the brightest either(all star game attendance, TV issues, allowing the game to be almost unwatchable, minor league salaries, etc...)

It isn't new that mediocre/decent pitcher don't pitch a ton of innings or go more than 4,5,6 innings in a start, they are mediocre/decent pitchers. The problem is they are training the pitchers to be 4,5,6 inning pitchers in the minor leagues and never given a chance to stretch out and see if they can become good or better pitchers. How many minor league pitchers in the Twins organization average more than 5 innings in a start? my guess is it is very few, since the next savior of pitchers aren't or are hurt, we are begging to bring up minor league pitchers to see if they can help the Twins in the future and all of these guys are 5 inning minor league's, yea more of watching games like the ones Ober pitches in 3 or 4 inning start, unless he is perfect than maybe he gets to 5 innings, then run out 4 or 5 crappy relief pitchers hoping the offense hits enough homers to make up for how terrible they are, that is can't miss TV.

There are 35 names that come before Jose Berrios in the Quality Start column (he is the Twins pitcher with the most QS) . Some of them are rookies and some I had never heard of before. (also one of them is Kyle Gibson and he has 12)

That is to me isn't a reflection on Berrios it is a direct reflection on the Twins philosophy on pitching, and it seems only recently (IMO) that they have left the starters in a bit longer than normal, just so they don't have to put another crappy relief pitcher in the game.

First, you're conflating MLB (the organization) with individual teams. MLB does some things that aggravate fans but teams are rarely "stupid" if you factor in the fact that money and self-interest drives 99% of their actions. Their behavior becomes quite predictable when viewed through that lens.

And despite what you think of the Twins, they are 17th in MLB in starter IP. They're smack in the middle of MLB in how they treat starting pitchers. This is a shift across almost all of baseball, not only the Twins going off and doing something silly by themselves.

If you look at WHY the Twins are controlling the innings of a pitcher like Ober, it makes a lot of sense. After the 2021 season, the Twins will control Ober for six (!) more seasons. Bailey Ober did not throw a game pitch in 2020. Before this season, his IP maxed out around 80 innings due to various injuries and difficulties. The Twins are treating him with kid gloves because they care more about what he does in 2022 and beyond than what he does in the lost season of 2021. And whether you agree or not, that idea makes a lot of sense and is based on some pretty sound logic.

[bighat]

On 7/13/2021 at 11:13 AM, TheLeviathan said:

...... scrounging to get .500 shouldn't be the aim here.  That has a demonstrably negative effect going forward (worse draft position) and sets the sights on the wrong kind of value to find in a lost season.....be willing to experiment with young players and let them work through their struggles without caring about wins and losses. 

I agree with you to an extent. But isn't that the same philosophy that the T-Wolves have every season? Play young guys, trade veterans, and lose so you get a good draft pick? It doesn't work, because it repeats itself every year!

I think it's much better for a team to lose 82 games as opposed to 100, no matter what stage of rebuilding or reloading they are in. Establish a winning culture, or at least a competitive culture, for young players to grow into.

[TwinsDr2021]

1 minute ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

First, you're conflating MLB (the organization) with individual teams. MLB does some things that aggravate fans but teams are rarely "stupid" if you factor in that money and self-interest drives 99% of their actions.

And despite what you think of the Twins, they are 17th in starter IP. They're smack in the middle of MLB in how they treat starting pitchers. This is a shift across almost all of baseball, not only the Twins going off and doing something silly by themselves.

If you look at WHY the Twins are controlling the innings of a pitcher like Ober, it makes a lot of sense. After the 2021 season, the Twins will control Ober for six (!) more seasons. Bailey Ober did not throw a game pitch in 2020. Before this season, his IP maxed out around 80 innings due to various injuries and difficulties. The Twins are treating him with kid gloves because they care more about what he does in 2022 and beyond than what he does in the lost season of 2021. And whether you agree or not, that idea makes a lot of sense and is based on some pretty sound logic.

I didn't say and I am not saying MLB is stupid, they make quite a few bad decisions and continue to do so year after year. I mean they had Ohtani starting the game pitching and hitting, Tatis, Vlad and other young stars to promote, and they choose politics over their players (regardless of what side of the issue you are on, this is a fact) and got 8.237 million viewers, barely up from the last all star game.

Since there are 30 MLB teams, one could also say they are in the bottom 50% of starter IP, doesn't seem as good as smack in the middle?

As for Ober I said - yea more of watching games like the ones Ober pitches in 3 or 4 inning start, unless he is perfect than maybe he gets to 5 innings

Then you mansplained on why the Twins are doing what the Twins are doing with Ober, great thanks, wasn't the point at all. The point was when you groom pitchers to go 5 innings in the minor leagues you get starts like the ones Ober currently makes, No major league team can survive doing that every day, there are not enough decent enough pitchers to go out there every few days in relief and never give up runs.

[TheLeviathan]

7 minutes ago, bighat said:

I agree with you to an extent. But isn't that the same philosophy that the T-Wolves have every season? Play young guys, trade veterans, and lose so you get a good draft pick? It doesn't work, because it repeats itself every year!

I think it's much better for a team to lose 82 games as opposed to 100, no matter what stage of rebuilding or reloading they are in. Establish a winning culture, or at least a competitive culture, for young players to grow into.

I'm not sure it's fair to use the dysfunctional Wolves as any example, but you can't just wave a wand and build a winning culture.  Nor is "culture" an achievement you build once and then just have in your back pocket.  First you have to identify and acquire talent able to win and give them opportunity to develop.  A few wins can be the difference between Anthony Edwards and Jarrett Culver.  No amount of buzzing about culture is going to save you with that talent disparity.

Of course you have to eventually worry more about wins, but not in a season that is already a disaster. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

7 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I didn't say and I am not saying MLB is stupid, they make quite a few bad decisions and continue to do so year after year. I mean they had Ohtani starting the game pitching and hitting, Tatis, Vlad and other young stars to promote, and they choose politics over their players (regardless of what side of the issue you are on, this is a fact) and got 8.237 million viewers, barely up from the last all star game.

Since there are 30 MLB teams, one could also say they are in the bottom 50% of starter IP, doesn't seem as good as smack in the middle?

As for Ober I said - yea more of watching games like the ones Ober pitches in 3 or 4 inning start, unless he is perfect than maybe he gets to 5 innings

Then you mansplained on why the Twins are doing what the Twins are doing with Ober, great thanks, wasn't the point at all. The point was when you groom pitchers to go 5 innings in the minor leagues you get starts like the ones Ober currently makes, No major league team can survive doing that every day, there are not enough decent enough pitchers to go out there every few days in relief and never give up runs.

You're against MLB changing the rules of a meaningless game to let the most exciting player of my lifetime both pitch and hit in front of a national audience? Okay, you lost me at that point, let's just move on and not continue this conversation.

[TwinsDr2021]

20 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

You're against MLB changing the rules of a meaningless game to let the most exciting player of my lifetime both pitch and hit in front of a national audience? Okay, you lost me at that point, let's just move on and not continue this conversation.

That was not at all what I was trying to say. I was trying to say they have one of the most exciting players in at least recent history (Ohtani), and some very personable young super stars in Tatis and Vlad, and instead of promoting the living heck out of them and making the game about these young super stars, they choose politics (moving the game from Atlanta) over their own damn players.  And I was saying I don't care if you agree with the move or not, that is irrelevant, just doing it took away from their players and placed their importance on politics. This should have been absolute must watch TV and it wasn't (at all), I sent out a text to my fantasy baseball league (12 players) and asked who is watching this game,  1 other league member said thanks for the reminder, the other 10 said no. I would normally say that is antidotal but the ratings say the same thing.

[theBOMisthebomb]

53 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

That was not at all what I was trying to say. I was trying to say they have one of the most exciting players in at least recent history (Ohtani), and some very personable young super stars in Tatis and Vlad, and instead of promoting the living heck out of them and making the game about these young super stars, they choose politics (moving the game from Atlanta) over their own damn players.  And I was saying I don't care if you agree with the move or not, that is irrelevant, just doing it took away from their players and placed their importance on politics. This should have been absolute must watch TV and it wasn't (at all), I sent out a text to my fantasy baseball league (12 players) and asked who is watching this game,  1 other league member said thanks for the reminder, the other 10 said no. I would normally say that is antidotal but the ratings say the same thing.

If you couldn't get fired up to watch the HR Derby on Monday night and then Ohtani as starting pitcher and leading off as DH on Tuesday then I question whether that person is a fan of watching baseball on television. I don't know what more MLB can do to stack the deck to make it compelling viewing. 

[Dodecahedron]

Yes, that is quite antidotal.  If there was ever a statement that defined antidotal, you just made it.

I have never sat and watched an entire all-star game.  By your numbers, you are saying viewership is about the same as the last all-star game, so I don't see much to complain about.  If you are in the habit of watching entire all-star games, you are in a minority.  You figuring this out now by asking your friends about it is coincidental to this year's game.

As for playing politics, the Braves owner gave more money to politicians than all but one other MLB team.  All of the team owners in the Atlanta market are in the top third of professional team owner donations.  Atlanta might be the most political city when it comes to professional sports team owner donations.  (And no, not all owners donate money.  25% gave $0 in 2020, and 60% of owners gave less than $10,000.  All owners in Atlanta were over this mark, and 2 were in the top 5.)

It's certainly debatable whether the MLB was "playing politics" or if they were making a moral stand by their decision to move the game, but that's a topic for somewhere else.  I can say with certainty that you are playing politics right now, though.

[TwinsDr2021]

5 minutes ago, theBOMisthebomb said:

If you couldn't get fired up to watch the HR Derby on Monday night and then Ohtani as starting pitcher and leading off as DH on Tuesday then I question whether that person is a fan of watching baseball on television. I don't know what more MLB can do to stack the deck to make it compelling viewing. 

Well the game only drew 8.24 million people, I watched about the same amount of the game as I always do. My point was only MLB needs to better job of getting fans and quite doing things that gets fans to leave. When they get political you alienate half the fan base, why would you do that either way?

Everywhere I looked it should have been the faces of Ohtanit, Tatis, Vlad, and others and it wasn't.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I didn't say and I am not saying MLB is stupid, they make quite a few bad decisions and continue to do so year after year. I mean they had Ohtani starting the game pitching and hitting, Tatis, Vlad and other young stars to promote, and they choose politics over their players (regardless of what side of the issue you are on, this is a fact) and got 8.237 million viewers, barely up from the last all star game.

Since there are 30 MLB teams, one could also say they are in the bottom 50% of starter IP, doesn't seem as good as smack in the middle?

As for Ober I said - yea more of watching games like the ones Ober pitches in 3 or 4 inning start, unless he is perfect than maybe he gets to 5 innings

Then you mansplained on why the Twins are doing what the Twins are doing with Ober, great thanks, wasn't the point at all. The point was when you groom pitchers to go 5 innings in the minor leagues you get starts like the ones Ober currently makes, No major league team can survive doing that every day, there are not enough decent enough pitchers to go out there every few days in relief and never give up runs.

Others have covered the political comment quite well, so I'll just say that if anyone decided not to watch the game because of where it was played MLB didn't notice. Not 1 bit. So if they were big baseball fans and deprived themselves of the chance to see Vlad Jr go massive big fly and Ohtani throw his 1-2-3 inning because they were making a political statement to MLB it was a pretty idiotic move on their part cuz MLB doesn't even know they exist.

As for the claim no major league team can survive by throwing their starters for only 5 innings here are some numbers to consider. The Tampa Bay Rays are averaging 4.8 innings per start (Twins are at 5.1) and are winning at almost a 60% clip while sporting a 3.50 ERA which is good for 7th in baseball. They seem to be surviving. And have been doing this for years. Top 7 team ERAs at the break: Dodgers, Giants, Padres, Mets, Marlins, Brewers, Rays. Avg Innings/GS for those teams: 5.4, 5.5, 4.6, 4.9, 5.0, 5.3, 4.8. So 3 of the top 7 are throwing more innings per start than the Twins while 4 of the top 7 are actually throwing less. Those teams certainly seem to be surviving while throwing their starters for only 5 innings a game. Some even less than 5 innings.

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Well the game only drew 8.24 million people, I watched about the same amount of the game as I always do. My point was only MLB needs to better job of getting fans and quite doing things that gets fans to leave. When they get political you alienate half the fan base, why would you do that either way?

Everywhere I looked it should have been the faces of Ohtanit, Tatis, Vlad, and others and it wasn't.

I don't know where you were looking if you weren't seeing Ohtani, Tatis, and Vlad Jr everywhere. It got to the point where I was getting sick of seeing Ohtani's face and he's the best all around baseball talent of the last 100 years, if not ever. 8.24 Mil doesn't mean anything without context. And you provided that context earlier by pointing out it is MORE than they got in 2019 (last All Star game). Your argument doesn't hold up on any level. They gained viewership over the last time they had the game and those 3 stars were all over MLB.com, commercials, emails, social media, everything. I don't like MLB or any other league taking political stances. I think that should be for individual players to do if they choose, but that doesn't mean the moving of the game hurt them at all. And you've proved the point that it didn't by acknowledging that they drew more eyes this year than they did in the past. Weird stance to take here.

[TwinsDr2021]

I seemed to touch a never with saying MLB shouldn't get political, which is funny because I was for them moving the game. but I wasn't naive to think it wouldn't hurt the game. And if people think having the TV attendance go up by 100K  over the last one played, when one was skipped because of Covid and having Ohtani do what he was doing isn't a bad thing for the game, they are crazy.

[Dodecahedron]

2 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I seemed to touch a never with saying MLB shouldn't get political, which is funny because I was for them moving the game. but I wasn't naive to think it wouldn't hurt the game. And if people think having the TV attendance go up by 100K  over the last one played, when one was skipped because of Covid and having Ohtani do what he was doing isn't a bad thing for the game, they are crazy.

Yeah, you know what they say:  Never touch a never.

Don't worry about it, this is an honorable disagreement.

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I seemed to touch a never with saying MLB shouldn't get political, which is funny because I was for them moving the game. but I wasn't naive to think it wouldn't hurt the game. And if people think having the TV attendance go up by 100K  over the last one played, when one was skipped because of Covid and having Ohtani do what he was doing isn't a bad thing for the game, they are crazy.

I just think baseball isn't that popular anymore. What reason do you attribute to the viewership being so low in 2019? I don't remember any dramatic political stance by the league that year. Baseball missing the All Star game last year and playing a shortened season wouldn't bring in more fans, it'd cost them fans. Same concern with a potential loss in games next year with the CBA mess. The dedicated fans that watched in 2019 seem to have mostly all shown up again in 2021. Casual fans didn't miss the game in 2020 the way those of us who really love the game did. Having found other ways to spend their summer nights and new hobbies during the pandemic means they're less likely to come back to the game they were just passively interested in to start with. Any increase in viewership is a win in my book.

[TwinsDr2021]

11 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Others have covered the political comment quite well, so I'll just say that if anyone decided not to watch the game because of where it was played MLB didn't notice. Not 1 bit. So if they were big baseball fans and deprived themselves of the chance to see Vlad Jr go massive big fly and Ohtani throw his 1-2-3 inning because they were making a political statement to MLB it was a pretty idiotic move on their part cuz MLB doesn't even know they exist.

As for the claim no major league team can survive by throwing their starters for only 5 innings here are some numbers to consider. The Tampa Bay Rays are averaging 4.8 innings per start (Twins are at 5.1) and are winning at almost a 60% clip while sporting a 3.50 ERA which is good for 7th in baseball. They seem to be surviving. And have been doing this for years. Top 7 team ERAs at the break: Dodgers, Giants, Padres, Mets, Marlins, Brewers, Rays. Avg Innings/GS for those teams: 5.4, 5.5, 4.6, 4.9, 5.0, 5.3, 4.8. So 3 of the top 7 are throwing more innings per start than the Twins while 4 of the top 7 are actually throwing less. Those teams certainly seem to be surviving while throwing their starters for only 5 innings a game. Some even less than 5 innings.

You are comparing Tampa to the Twins?

Name (games, starts, innings)

Yarbrough - 18 games, 13 starts 96.1

Hill - 18, 18, 91.1

Glasnow - 14-14- 88

McClanahan - 13-13-60

And then basically a bunch of relief pitchers have started, so basically comparing the two is like apples and oranges.

 

 

[chpettit19]

8 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

You are comparing Tampa to the Twins?

Name (games, starts, innings)

Yarbrough - 18 games, 13 starts 96.1

Hill - 18, 18, 91.1

Glasnow - 14-14- 88

McClanahan - 13-13-60

And then basically a bunch of relief pitchers have started, so basically comparing the two is like apples and oranges.

 

 

Says a lot that you picked out just 1 team out of the top 7 that I presented you. Care to comment on the other 6? 3 of which still average fewer IP/GS than the Twins?

Want individual rankings for IP/GS Twins v Rays? Glasnow (6.3), Berrios (6.0), Yarbrough (5.9), Happ (5.1), Hill (5.1), Pineda (5.1), Maeda (4.8), McClanahan (4.6), Shoemaker (4.6). Those are the guys that made the top 131 in baseball in IP/GS. Those are your "real starters" and not relief pitchers starting. My point still stands in every way, shape, and form.

This is how the game is played now. You don't have to like it or agree with it. But your attempt to make it sound like the Twins are doing something outrageous and outside of conventional baseball strategy in 2021 is simply wrong.