Game Recap: White Sox 8, Twins 5

[insagt1]

I find it interesting that the 'solution' to the Twins 2021 is to start selling off everyone in sight...so we can be competitive in, oh lets see, 3 or 4 or 5 years? thats just not the answer.

Yeah--the 3 game sweep pretty much drove the final nail in the 2021 season, but the answer isn't dismantling the team. Not now anyway. The deadline selloffs don't do much to help the team. Offseason makes more sense when maybe Twins can get legit value for assets they want to dump.

Pitching is priority though. Anyone been checking the recent performances of Robles and Alcala? Over the past 7 games....just a total mess. Over the past 15 games, just about as bad. These two guys are contributing nothing. We know the problems of all the rest too.

[Vanimal46]

Hopefully it’s just a one game blip, but Berrios only had 5 swings and misses on his 89 pitches from LEN III’s report. The day after Maeda had his worst start of the season. 

[D.C Twins]

Miguel "Golden Sombrero" Sano, Nelson "Nitro-boosting-outta-this-clown-car-to-a-contending-club" Cruz and Rocco "Remind-me-where-the-leadership-section-is-in-my-binder" Baldelli all being their best selves in  yet another game!

[Danchat]

I felt like I've heard the phrase "any potential hope that was remaining for a comeback season is gone" once a week for the past month. They've been cooked for quite some time now, so even if they do win some games back against the Royals and Tigers, I don't want to hear about "OMG, we're only 11 games out of 1st place!!"

Now that it's July and we're out of contention, it's time to see what we've got in the high minors / young guys in the majors. Rooker and Cano are getting old, let's see what they've got. Give Gordon as many PAs as he can handle. Find out where Arraez's future position is. Give Charlie Barnes and some of the relievers with an ounce of potential up just to see what they've got. I am sick and tired of the waiver wire relievers like Law, Waddell, Minaya, Columbe. 

[terrydactyls]

Two former GMs were on MLB radio this morning discussing the trade deadline.  Both agreed that, because the Nationals are now in the pennant race and Max Scherzer was not longer going to be traded, that Jose Berrios was now the number one target for any team needing starting pitching.  They both agreed that the price for Berrios would be very high but that several teams in need (and maybe more if Trevor Bauer gets into legal problems) would be in the running for him.  That is very promising for the Twins front office.  If a couple others can be moved for decent returns, 2022 looks interesting and 2023 looks exciting.

[Otto von Ballpark]

3 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Keeping sano on the roster because he’s owed a lot of money is like not selling a lemon of a car you still have payments on, but doesn’t get you to work half the time. Maybe you can save yourself a few bucks and give someone else the headache.

Sure, if you can sell the lemon. I don’t think anyone is buying Sano at the moment though. We’d have to release him and we’d net no savings (even if another team picks him up and pays him league minimum, we’d presumably have to pay league minimum to his replacement on our roster too).

[Otto von Ballpark]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

If I counted correctly, the Twins staff managed seven 1-2-3 innings in the three game Chicago series.

 

Yeesh. 

 

We should have saved them up to pitch an unofficial perfect game as half of a 2021 doubleheader!

[theBOMisthebomb]

Is Taylor Rogers hurt? Is the bullpen usage chart correct that Rogers hasn't pitched since last Friday? Not that it matters in the big picture, I wonder why we couldn't at least work Rogers into the Sox series. 

[Vanimal46]

6 minutes ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

Sure, if you can sell the lemon. I don’t think anyone is buying Sano at the moment though. We’d have to release him and we’d net no savings (even if another team picks him up and pays him league minimum, we’d presumably have to pay league minimum to his replacement on our roster too).

Yep, that’s the thing. I can’t imagine a team willing to pay more than the veteran minimum for him right now. It’s unfortunate he’s not in AAA trying to tweak his swing and find a 2 week hot streak. Being a LH platoon 1B isn’t working for either him or the Twins.
 

People in the know will recognize that trend and wait to see if Falvey and Levine hit their breaking point releasing him. 

[Game7-91]

1 hour ago, insagt1 said:

The deadline selloffs don't do much to help the team. Offseason makes more sense when maybe Twins can get legit value for assets they want to dum

Amen to that.

[TwinsChupacabra]

The season has been over for a long time.  The dream of 2019 being the baseline of performance expectations is laughably gone. They have a bad ball club. Period.

When you have players that another team wouldn't even take if you paid the salary, says a lot.

Since the season is lost already, seeing what you have and planning for the future should be the primary objective.

It drives me crazy that we are wasting all these at bats (and pitch-innings) on players that won't be with the Twins next year or certainly won't be part of our needed rebuild.  These evaluation at bats are one of the few assets we have left.  We are wasting them on duds like Sano and Simmons. 

I think a new manager is necessary (I could list 50 reasons) for the rebuild too but that is another discussion. 

When Cruz is traded and we immediately lose 30 percent of our offense, perhaps then the readers of this site will see tweaking the roster a little bit is not much of a plan forward.  Like the saying goes, drastic times call for drastic measures.

I would like to see a sense of urgency.  This team is a complete mess.  

I would like my kids to witness at least one playoff win before I die.

  

[bighat]

No mention of Larnach and the Golden Sombrero? Dude struck out 4 straight times and left 5 men on base. Twins struck out 9 times in 5 innings against Rodon (well over half of their outs) - you just can't compete if you're going to strike out so frequently.

I stopped watching a few weeks ago, don't need the emotional torture. I do follow on the MLB GameTracker and even that's too much.

Baldelli look like he'd be fine just hiding under his desk until the season is over. I always liked managers with a little bit of a hot temper and some fire.

Nick Gordon has been playing well and didn't get to start one game this series, barely saw the field.

Eddie Rosario should be feeling pretty happy and smug and I don't blame him one bit.

Undisciplined, untalented, unlikeable and unwatchable. Unbearable.

[bighat]

7 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

Two former GMs were on MLB radio this morning discussing the trade deadline.  Both agreed that, because the Nationals are now in the pennant race and Max Scherzer was not longer going to be traded, that Jose Berrios was now the number one target for any team needing starting pitching.  They both agreed that the price for Berrios would be very high but that several teams in need (and maybe more if Trevor Bauer gets into legal problems) would be in the running for him.  That is very promising for the Twins front office.  If a couple others can be moved for decent returns, 2022 looks interesting and 2023 looks exciting.

Yeah I think he's the #1 arm available right now. He's also the best Twins pitcher developed in recent memory, I can't think of another guy to come out of their farm system in the past 20 years that's been any good. Berrios is All Star material. He could net quite a bit for the Twins.

That said, subtracting Berrios doesn't make me too excited about 2022 and 2023. The Twins are the worst pitching team in baseball, and subtracting Berrios' numbers from the staff would make them historically terrible. I just don't see the Twins bouncing back with literally nothing to build around, pitching wise. I think it's a full rebuild from the ground up if you trade La Makina.

[Otto von Ballpark]

7 hours ago, theBOMisthebomb said:

Is Taylor Rogers hurt? Is the bullpen usage chart correct that Rogers hasn't pitched since last Friday? Not that it matters in the big picture, I wonder why we couldn't at least work Rogers into the Sox series. 

Same reason Robles and Alcala hadn’t pitched since last Friday either — few games (2 rainouts) and lots of big early deficits. (Rogers was warming yesterday even after Alcala put us down 2 runs in 6, but then Robles made the deficit 3+ in the 7th.)

In hindsight, this series unfolded a little like the 2019 ALDS in that regard, where Rogers didn’t appear until late in the final game (and we were still trailing then anyway). That’s generally what happens when you blow games early.

[Taildragger8791]

1 hour ago, bighat said:

Yeah I think he's the #1 arm available right now. He's also the best Twins pitcher developed in recent memory, I can't think of another guy to come out of their farm system in the past 20 years that's been any good. Berrios is All Star material. He could net quite a bit for the Twins.

That said, subtracting Berrios doesn't make me too excited about 2022 and 2023. The Twins are the worst pitching team in baseball, and subtracting Berrios' numbers from the staff would make them historically terrible. I just don't see the Twins bouncing back with literally nothing to build around, pitching wise. I think it's a full rebuild from the ground up if you trade La Makina.

Twins really gotta get Berrios to honestly assess whether the can extend him or not. If it’s looking unlikely then the time will never be better to get a haul to help rebuild this team with a new young wave. He’s having a career best season (which is still only a mid-3 ERA) and he’s still young enough and healthy. I’d rather keep him but it would be unbelievably bone-headed to lose him for nothing. This team isn’t competing for a couple more years anyways. Several prospects they need to break in and sort through before they can open another window. 

[AceWrigley]

13 hours ago, PDX Twin said:

According to FanGraphs, his current WAR is -0.2, He's worse than a replacement player! When he comes up with a man on first and less than two outs, I want there to be an "intentional strikeout" so that he won't hit into a DP. Just wave your hand to the umpire and he's out.

I think the most common out come for the Twins this year with runners in scoring position and one out = the strikeout. No runners get moved and now there are two outs. Rally killers.

[Whitey333]

Trades should be happening by the deadline.  However my concern is we can't/ won't get much in return.  Cruz, as good as he has been as a twin, just turned 41. And he is limited to DH. That leaves out trading with half the teams.  Pineada is a decent pitcher but surly not too notch.  These types of players will only bring maybe AA level players in return that may or may not be major league ready for about 2 years.  To get anything you may need to trade Buxton, Berrios, Kepler to get anything meaningful.  But this FO will probably go on the cheap again

[bighat]

30 minutes ago, Whitey333 said:

To get anything you may need to trade Buxton, Berrios, Kepler to get anything meaningful. 

Kepler's been as bad as Sano this year. Maybe even worse, as he's hitting .199 this season with just 6 homers. Kepler's disappearance would be the top concern of the year for Twins fans if this were a normal season. Heck, maybe it should be the top story. Dude's been really, really bad.

Kepler and Sano are staying put. Nobody's going to give up anything for either of 'em, Twins are committed.

 

[terrydactyls]

31 minutes ago, Whitey333 said:

Trades should be happening by the deadline.  However my concern is we can't/ won't get much in return.  Cruz, as good as he has been as a twin, just turned 41. And he is limited to DH. That leaves out trading with half the teams.  Pineada is a decent pitcher but surly not too notch.  These types of players will only bring maybe AA level players in return that may or may not be major league ready for about 2 years.

Two questions.  1.  Are saying to keep Cruz because all he would bring in return is an AA level player?  2.  What does "surly not too notch" mean?

[KFEY93]

14 hours ago, jimbo92107 said:

Oh, I dunno... I suppose the Red Sox might take a flier on Sano.

Dont. You KNOW he will turn into Big Papi 2.0 there. Its the way of the universe. 

[Trov]

I am glad we can finally say the season is a wash.  I said that in May, but some fans still held hope saying if we can just get things together.  We are not the only team playing worse than expected, but we are playing much worse than expected.  Very few players are playing at level we were hoping coming into season.  

Time to shop around see what teams are willing to give up for players we are willing to part with.  I do not feel we need a full tear down, but a big retool is needed.  Here is to hoping some of our young pitchers can come up and be good. 

[mbuehrer68]

I understand the season is over and we need to start thinking of flipping some assets, but why Berrios? He's our only decent starter? What are the odds we flip him for two good starters that can help us in the near future? I don't see us giving up are one good piece for 2. Cruz makes total sense because he's 41 and is a great rental option for a contender. I guess I just don't have the confidence in us flipping Berrios for 2 good starters.

[Mike Sixel]

10 hours ago, theBOMisthebomb said:

Is Taylor Rogers hurt? Is the bullpen usage chart correct that Rogers hasn't pitched since last Friday? Not that it matters in the big picture, I wonder why we couldn't at least work Rogers into the Sox series. 

He can't pitch back to back days .... When would you have put him in, and not been able to use him the next day?

[bighat]

1 hour ago, KFEY93 said:

Dont. You KNOW he will turn into Big Papi 2.0 there. Its the way of the universe. 

And when the Twins trade Buxton or let him walk (whichever comes first) you can be sure he'll play 160 games per year for the next 5 years as soon as he leaves. It's gonna happen.

[MABB1959]

The only games  I watch now are when Berrios pitches.  I have Dish so can't watch many games on TV.  Watching on my iPad Pro is uncomfortable and the team stinks!   I would watch more if Buxton were back he adds such excitement to a game and a better chance of winning.  All that aside with Twins front office is in a pickle.  I don't think either of the B's want to stay so if we don't trade we don't get anything and if we trade some loyal fans are going to be angry.  If they want to stay they should do everything in their power to keep them.  Berrios is the pitcher we have been waiting for for 10+ years and a guy like him another team would most likely have MN on their no trade list.  Buxton and rightly so is mad about the service time issue.  I think both of these players want to win a pennant or at least be on a team that has a chance.  If I were a player at their caliber I would be in severe depression if this was how I would spend the best years of my career.  Money isn't everything!  So only for B&B's sakes am I hoping for a trade.  

[MABB1959]

5 hours ago, bighat said:

Yeah I think he's the #1 arm available right now. He's also the best Twins pitcher developed in recent memory, I can't think of another guy to come out of their farm system in the past 20 years that's been any good. Berrios is All Star material. He could net quite a bit for the Twins.

That said, subtracting Berrios doesn't make me too excited about 2022 and 2023. The Twins are the worst pitching team in baseball, and subtracting Berrios' numbers from the staff would make them historically terrible. I just don't see the Twins bouncing back with literally nothing to build around, pitching wise. I think it's a full rebuild from the ground up if you trade La Makina.

Berrios and Buxton are the only 2 memorable players they have managed to get here and it took almost 10 years.  What is going on with our first round #1 player Royce something or other.  Either he is not good and they made a huge blunder or they are wasting away his time just so they won't have to pay him sooner than they have to.  This team is a joke and always will be.

[bighat]

1 minute ago, MABB1959 said:

Berrios and Buxton are the only 2 memorable players they have managed to get here and it took almost 10 years.  What is going on with our first round #1 player Royce something or other.  Either he is not good and they made a huge blunder or they are wasting away his time just so they won't have to pay him sooner than they have to.  This team is a joke and always will be.

Royce Lewis slipped on some ice this winter and is out for the entire year. He's good but injured, just like the Twins' best pitching prospect. This organization has real trouble keeping their players healthy, it's an embarrassment.

[RelentlessHooah]

8 hours ago, TwinsChupacabra said:

The season has been over for a long time.  The dream of 2019 being the baseline of performance expectations is laughably gone. They have a bad ball club. Period.

When you have players that another team wouldn't even take if you paid the salary, says a lot.

Since the season is lost already, seeing what you have and planning for the future should be the primary objective.

It drives me crazy that we are wasting all these at bats (and pitch-innings) on players that won't be with the Twins next year or certainly won't be part of our needed rebuild.  These evaluation at bats are one of the few assets we have left.  We are wasting them on duds like Sano and Simmons. 

I think a new manager is necessary (I could list 50 reasons) for the rebuild too but that is another discussion. 

When Cruz is traded and we immediately lose 30 percent of our offense, perhaps then the readers of this site will see tweaking the roster a little bit is not much of a plan forward.  Like the saying goes, drastic times call for drastic measures.

I would like to see a sense of urgency.  This team is a complete mess.  

I would like my kids to witness at least one playoff win before I die.

  

The line you said that scared me the most was this 

 

"When Cruz is traded and we immediately lose 30% of our offense." Imagine Cruz's numbers being swapped with Sano and imagine this teams record. OMG

[Ryan Atkins]

RE: Taylor Rogers

3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

He can't pitch back to back days .... 

Why?

Mariano Rivera pitched back-to-back days 16 times in his final season, he was 43 years old.

In 2008, just to pick another random year in his career, he pitched back-to-back days 21 times.

In fact, it was not uncommon for him to pitch in 3 consecutive games. He also pitched both games of a double header on multiple occasions.

He played for 19 seasons.

[Mike Sixel]

27 minutes ago, Ryan Atkins said:

RE: Taylor Rogers

Why?

Mariano Rivera pitched back-to-back days 16 times in his final season, he was 43 years old.

In 2008, just to pick another random year in his career, he pitched back-to-back days 21 times.

In fact, it was not uncommon for him to pitch in 3 consecutive games. He also pitched both games of a double header on multiple occasions.

He played for 19 seasons.

Because Rogers isn't good at it. No idea why. He just isn't.