Twins/MLB Apathy

[wsnydes]

4 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

The NFL is not hurting for attention.  Kids playing the sport as a safety concern is a problem, but not apathy or inattention.

The NFL's constant news cycle is robust evidence of the appetite.

I think the NFL creates that for themselves to keep themselves out there.  It comes across as "needy" to me.  That said, it's still working for them.  Regardless, it's not apathy that they suffer from.  It is a different problem then MLB, no doubt.  But, I know that I'm not the only one that has stopped watching the NFL for the reasons that I stated.

[Dodecahedron]

15 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Heck, the Twins themselves are promoting apathy with stunts like we saw on Saturday. Here’s Reusse:

Twins attendance has been a flop since pandemic restrictions were softened. Still, there might have been 18,000 on Saturday. Traditionally, summer weekends are when families from around the area plan their one or two trips a season to Target Field.

Come Saturday:

They arrive, pay their $12 to park, let the kids make a first run to a concession stand, and then they look at the field and wonder where are the players, getting loose, ready for a ballgame.

Then comes the delay, followed by the announcement there would be no game, and even the kids squint into the sun and ask, “Why not?”

Twins forget their fans with a flimsy excuse for a rainout

 

Thanks for linking to this article.  I was wondering why the game was cancelled as it looked to me that the rain was to the south and east.  

I believe it is umpires who make this decision, so who knows if the Twins pushed for it.  Maybe they did.  If so, that's rubbish.

[wsnydes]

17 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Heck, the Twins themselves are promoting apathy with stunts like we saw on Saturday. Here’s Reusse:

Twins attendance has been a flop since pandemic restrictions were softened. Still, there might have been 18,000 on Saturday. Traditionally, summer weekends are when families from around the area plan their one or two trips a season to Target Field.

Come Saturday:

They arrive, pay their $12 to park, let the kids make a first run to a concession stand, and then they look at the field and wonder where are the players, getting loose, ready for a ballgame.

Then comes the delay, followed by the announcement there would be no game, and even the kids squint into the sun and ask, “Why not?”

Twins forget their fans with a flimsy excuse for a rainout

 

For what it's worth, in Apple Valley, it rained all afternoon and sometimes rather hard.  The storm was moving north, so I can see why they called it.  I cancelled a tee time in Mpls for the same reason.

That said, it annoys me to no end when they do that.  I've driven downtown far too many times to only have to have the game called after sitting there for an hour waiting for it to start.  Now, if it looks like the game will be delayed I'll head downtown later or not at all if it looks like it'll be called.

[wsnydes]

4 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

I believe it is umpires who make this decision, so who knows if the Twins pushed for it.  Maybe they did.  If so, that's rubbish.

My understanding is that the home team makes the call prior to the game starting, but the umps make the call if the game has started.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Just now, wsnydes said:

My understanding is that the home team makes the call prior to the game starting, but the umps make the call if the game has started.

You are correct!

http://mlb.mlb.com/documents/0/4/0/224919040/2017_Official_Baseball_Rules_dbt69t59.pdf

4.04 (3.10) Weather and Field Conditions (a) The home team shall be the sole judge as to whether a game shall not be started because of unsuitable weather conditions or the unfit condition of the playing field, except for the second game of a conventional or split doubleheader.

[Dodecahedron]

3 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

My understanding is that the home team makes the call prior to the game starting, but the umps make the call if the game has started.

Ah, could be.  One has to wonder if both teams must agree.  In the early days of baseball, forfeits happened if one side wasn't ready or willing to play.

[Dodecahedron]

6 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

For what it's worth, in Apple Valley, it rained all afternoon and sometimes rather hard.  The storm was moving north, so I can see why they called it.  I cancelled a tee time in Mpls for the same reason.

That said, it annoys me to no end when they do that.  I've driven downtown far too many times to only have to have the game called after sitting there for an hour waiting for it to start.  Now, if it looks like the game will be delayed I'll head downtown later or not at all if it looks like it'll be called.

On a different note, sometime in the 70s, me and my dad drove down to Met Stadium in the pouring rain to get in to a game that had already started but was on a rain delay.

It was rather obvious the game was going to be called, but we pulled all the way into the stadium parking lot (free parking was a thing back then) and waited.  That was quite a rain, and eventually the game was called.  On the bright side, we were the first ones out of the lot. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

10 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

For what it's worth, in Apple Valley, it rained all afternoon and sometimes rather hard.  The storm was moving north, so I can see why they called it.  I cancelled a tee time in Mpls for the same reason.

That said, it annoys me to no end when they do that.  I've driven downtown far too many times to only have to have the game called after sitting there for an hour waiting for it to start.  Now, if it looks like the game will be delayed I'll head downtown later or not at all if it looks like it'll be called.

On Saturday, you can probably justify the postponement, but it sounds like the Twins handled it poorly.

First pitch was scheduled for 1:10 but no players came out for pre-game stretching etc. which suggests the teams already knew about the delay. However, they still went ahead with the national anthem at the usual time (with no players present), and no public delay announcement was made until 1:18 -- 8 minutes after scheduled first pitch. And that's just about the delay, not the postponement. If they knew at 12:30 that they weren't starting on time, they should have announced it then -- it doesn't help everyone, but maybe some folks don't rush to get there by 1, or others hold off on sitting down for a meal at the stadium.

FWIW, in a departure from normal rainout policy, fans can exchange Saturday tickets for any other game, and also get tickets for the Sep. 14 makeup. Not sure if this is in recognition of the delay announcement mistakes noted above, or the more general suspicion of the "phantom" postponement, or some combination thereof:

 

[TheLeviathan]

39 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

I think the NFL creates that for themselves to keep themselves out there.  It comes across as "needy" to me.  That said, it's still working for them.  Regardless, it's not apathy that they suffer from.  It is a different problem then MLB, no doubt.  But, I know that I'm not the only one that has stopped watching the NFL for the reasons that I stated.

Yeah...you are part of a segment that is doing that.  I apologize, didnt mean to imply anything other than that the scale of the apathy problems are simply not comparable.

[Vanimal46]

23 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

Just be happy you have a grandson playing!  Participation in all youths sports are down, but baseball has a real crisis.  

Some of us were talking about this three years ago though.

I could copy and paste what I typed 3 years ago in regards to the marketing problems in baseball. There’s a lot of fun, young players in the game that we know very little about. 
 

In recent years MLB Network has tried making the draft a bigger deal but it’s still not close to the giant event NFL and NBA has. There’s also little to no effort to showcase minor league talent.  Per usual, baseball is only thinking of grabbing the short term cash instead of investing in the growth of the game. 

[wsnydes]

1 minute ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

On Saturday, you can probably justify the postponement, but it sounds like the Twins handled it poorly.

First pitch was scheduled for 1:10 but no players came out for pre-game stretching etc. which suggests the teams already knew about the delay. However, they still went ahead with the national anthem at the usual time (with no players present), and no public delay announcement was made until 1:18 -- 8 minutes after scheduled first pitch. And that's just about the delay, not the postponement. If they knew at 12:30 that they weren't starting on time, they should have announced it then -- it doesn't help everyone, but maybe some folks don't rush to get there by 1, or others hold off on sitting down for a meal at the stadium.

FWIW, in a departure from normal rainout policy, fans can exchange Saturday tickets for any other game, and also get tickets for the Sep. 14 makeup. Not sure if this is in recognition of the delay announcement mistakes noted above, or the more general suspicion of the "phantom" postponement, or some combination thereof:

 

This is actually a fairly common occurrence, in my experience.  They don't always do the anthem, but they'll let everyone in knowing that there will be a delay (usually when it's already raining), announce the delay around when first pitch is slated, and let people buy concessions and whatnot for about an hour and then postpone it at that point.  It's ridiculous and why I simply quit going downtown if I think the game will be called.  I'm right most of the time, but I have missed a few games that ended up getting played.  I've actually been complaining about this very thing for almost the entire existence of Target Field.  I'm glad to see people are catching on to this clear money grab.

[wsnydes]

5 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Yeah...you are part of a segment that is doing that.  I apologize, didnt mean to imply anything other than that the scale of the apathy problems are simply not comparable.

No worries, I see where you're coming from.  My initial point probably could have been a bit clearer.  Your comment allowed me to further clarify.

[Vanimal46]

Ways to combat apathy, and grow the game for the future:

- Build Urban Youth Academies in every major city in the US. There are players like Aaron Hicks, Dominic Smith, and Hunter Greene who are MLB success stories. 

- MLB donating a bat and ball to every school in the US. 

- Kids under a certain age can come to the ballpark for free. 

- A league wide “Get to Know Em” campaign to showcase the young stars of MLB. 

[wsnydes]

16 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

I could copy and paste what I typed 3 years ago in regards to the marketing problems in baseball. There’s a lot of fun, young players in the game that we know very little about. 
 

In recent years MLB Network has tried making the draft a bigger deal but it’s still not close to the giant event NFL and NBA has. There’s also little to no effort to showcase minor league talent.  Per usual, baseball is only thinking of grabbing the short term cash instead of investing in the growth of the game. 

Agreed on the marketing issues.  I do think that focusing on the draft is probably a poor idea though.  It takes too long for the vast majority of those guys to get to the big leagues, if they get there at all.  That isn't the case with the NFL or NBA.  That's not to say that they should ignore it though.  It still creates visibility, which is obviously good.  But, I do think that showcasing the minor leagues is a really good idea.  And with the young talent that's come up in the majors the last few years, those teams should be showcased more instead of every single NYY/BOS tilt.  Expand the fan base, don't pander to the relative few that are already in it.  Few outside of the NY or Boston area care about seeing the Yankees and/or Red Sox for the 400th time.  Show me Toronto.  Show me Atlanta.  Show San Diego.  Show me Washington.

[Otto von Ballpark]

27 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

- MLB donating a bat and ball to every school in the US. 

You'd need helmets and more importantly supervision, more than a bat and a ball, to make this a meaningful gesture. And that supervision element is almost impossible to achieve in a school setting (I'm sure most schools would decline the offer of a bat ). Hence why MLB and its teams support youth baseball through equipment donations and building youth ballfields, where there is already volunteer supervision in place.

Youth baseball is never going to be as popular or accessible as it was decades ago, or as much as some other youth sports, but that's more about how the world has changed than any mistake baseball has made.

[TheLeviathan]

42 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

 

- Kids under a certain age can come to the ballpark for free.

The school idea would have problems with play space and supervision.  I pitched and we used a wiffle bat and tennis balls but most kids didnt own a glove.

 

But this idea is key.  Families should be the priority of ballparks but instead it feels catered to kid-free folks: beer drinking 25 year olds or beer drinking 55 year olds with a lot of disposable income.  Ballparks are simply not kid friendly.  That said....kids don't care and don't want to be there.

[Mike Sixel]

You want people to know who the players are? Put their damn names on their jerseys. FFS. If you do happen to see a game in a bar, how the heck do you know who anyone is? /rant

[Mike Sixel]

I clearly spend a TON of time here, and I never watch baseball on tv. So. Damn. Boring. 

[howeda7]

I am seeing a lot of the same things. I think the biggest factor for the Twins is the terrible start. A lot of people tuned out around May 1st and aren't going to re-engage unless there's a major extended run. The Bally Sports issue is also significant. And frankly there are still some folks reluctant to go downtown Minneapolis.

If I were the Twins, I'd be looking to give away free tickets and gets butts in seats any way I can. They seem to have ticked off a lot of people with how Saturday's game was handled. They should have given everyone a free ticket to any other game AND honored those tickets for the make-up.

Longer-term, MLB has to do something about pace of play. I still watch almost every game, but on DVR and watch the whole game in less than an hour. On the rare occasion I have no choice but to watch live, I find it very difficult to stay engaged. There's no way you're going to get anyone under 30 to routinely watch a 3.5 hour game. A pitch clock is obvious. But maybe 7 inning games are necessary too, even though the purists will be in revolt.

Finally, the Twins need to find a way out of this Bally Sports contract if they can. 30% + of homes have no cable/streaming in MSP. Now add the cut off from the streaming services and half your fan base can't watch the games. That can't work. They need to get back to having games on regular over the air TV at least once a week. It can't go on long-term that it's easier to watch the Saints on TV than it is the Twins.

[Mike Sixel]

I think pace of play is clearly an issue....both the length of games, and the amount of time during the game nothing is happening. 
Football hides that with lots of replays, and cutting out to other games. Baseball revels in the fact it is slower....which, great if you want that, but I'm guessing most non-fans don't. It is like when a car company asked car fans what they loved, and they said loud engines....but then when they tried to sell those cars, they realized NO ONE ELSE likes loud engines.....

Clearly marketing is an issue......and trying to stop celebrations because being happy is disrespectful somehow.....

[In My La Z boy]

Baseball is clearly not helping itself as everyone has enumerated above, but this same problem exists in all other major sports. Viewership way down, youth engagement way down - it is not a baseball issue as much as it is a cultural issue. When us 1960's kids woke up in the morning we couldn't wait to go outside, and we spent the whole day outside. I have 10 grandchildren, and I have to shut off machines and kick them outside. They would rather watch other kids play video games on youtube, than to go outside and play games themselves. And as for me, I enjoyed the games much more when they were just games. Now we have politics that must be injected into the games - we have the billboards, we have the commercials, we have all the causes. The only cause we used to care and talk about was the playoffs and the world series. Moving the all-star game out of Atlanta? What was that all about? And to Denver, for social justice reasons, when Colorado voting laws are more restrictive than the new Georgia law. Why are sports getting sucked into politics? It is killing the NBA. We've got to get out of this and just play ball. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

24 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Families should be the priority of ballparks but instead it feels catered to kid-free folks: beer drinking 25 year olds or beer drinking 55 year olds with a lot of disposable income.  Ballparks are simply not kid friendly.  That said....kids don't care and don't want to be there.

Is it different at NFL stadiums, or NBA/NHL arenas? Or even MLS? To the extent that this is an issue, it seems to be an issue across all major sports.

[Mike Sixel]

5 minutes ago, In My La Z boy said:

Baseball is clearly not helping itself as everyone has enumerated above, but this same problem exists in all other major sports. Viewership way down, youth engagement way down - it is not a baseball issue as much as it is a cultural issue. When us 1960's kids woke up in the morning we couldn't wait to go outside, and we spent the whole day outside. I have 10 grandchildren, and I have to shut off machines and kick them outside. They would rather watch other kids play video games on youtube, than to go outside and play games themselves. And as for me, I enjoyed the games much more when they were just games. Now we have politics that must be injected into the games - we have the billboards, we have the commercials, we have all the causes. The only cause we used to care and talk about was the playoffs and the world series. Moving the all-star game out of Atlanta? What was that all about? And to Denver, for social justice reasons, when Colorado voting laws are more restrictive than the new Georgia law. Why are sports getting sucked into politics? It is killing the NBA. We've got to get out of this and just play ball. 

So much wrong here. So much......like, so much.

Also, kids not going outside? That is partly how they are raised, and what their parents reinforce.....I'd stop blaming the kids for all the world's problems.....

Also, ya, the NBA isn't getting killed at all. Neither is the NFL. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

Is it different at NFL stadiums, or NBA/NHL arenas? Or even MLS? To the extent that this is an issue, it seems to be an issue across all major sports.

Agreed. The NFL (so far) has been smart to keep most of its games on "free tv"......but yes, IME the experience is the same at most stadiums (the NFL is sooooooo boring in person. I can't believe anyone goes, and that's the sport I watch the most).

[Otto von Ballpark]

15 minutes ago, howeda7 said:

They seem to have ticked off a lot of people with how Saturday's game was handled. They should have given everyone a free ticket to any other game AND honored those tickets for the make-up.

According to the Dave St. Peter tweet I posted upthread, the Twins decided to do just that.

[howeda7]

17 minutes ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

According to the Dave St. Peter tweet I posted upthread, the Twins decided to do just that.

Good. A bit too little too late but better than nothing I suppose.

[TheLeviathan]

23 minutes ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

Is it different at NFL stadiums, or NBA/NHL arenas? Or even MLS? To the extent that this is an issue, it seems to be an issue across all major sports.

No....but if you have a serious problem with fans you cant be like everyone else.

[wsnydes]

27 minutes ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

Is it different at NFL stadiums, or NBA/NHL arenas? Or even MLS? To the extent that this is an issue, it seems to be an issue across all major sports.

True, but if it negatively impacts the fan experience, it'll catch up to you eventually.  And as @TheLeviathan pointed out, if you have a serious problem with fans then you can't be like everyone else.  These venues have become very family unfriendly.  I don't want to subject myself to drunken idiots all of the time, let alone exposing a kid to that.  

[In My La Z boy]

24 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

So much wrong here. So much......like, so much.

Also, kids not going outside? That is partly how they are raised, and what their parents reinforce.....I'd stop blaming the kids for all the world's problems.....

Also, ya, the NBA isn't getting killed at all. Neither is the NFL. 

Wow. Having a bad day? And you blame my children for our grandchildren's love of machines, and every other child's love of machines? I blame the machines. Youth engagement dramatically down - I simply posited an answer. Culture. It's just different now. Take a couple minutes to look up the viewership for the NBA - down 13% this year - playoff ratings down 50% from 6 years ago. NFL similar - people care much less in general about major sports in both public opinion polls, and in viewership. I posited another answer for this - politics. Your response to me was quite correct to score points on this site. Nice work. 

[howeda7]

2 minutes ago, In My La Z boy said:

Wow. Having a bad day? And you blame my children for our grandchildren's love of machines, and every other child's love of machines? I blame the machines. Youth engagement dramatically down - I simply posited an answer. Culture. It's just different now. Take a couple minutes to look up the viewership for the NBA - down 13% this year - playoff ratings down 50% from 6 years ago. NFL similar - people care much less in general about major sports in both public opinion polls, and in viewership. I posited another answer for this - politics. Your response to me was quite correct to score points on this site. Nice work. 

NBA play-off ratings aren't down. They're up like 40% from last year. Last year was down. Everyone tried to blame "politics" but it likely had far more to do with them happening in August/September.