Game Recap: Twins 7, Mariners 2

[ashbury]

Give Ober a 4-year guaranteed contract with 3 option years like Dobnak, or just go ahead and guarantee all 7?

[chpettit19]

41 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

Sorry to rant, but I think baseball has to come up with another strategy for pitching and I do not mean sticky substances. 

If we want Ober to have less starts bring up another rookie - Duran? and go with a six pitcher rotation.

3 Full blown starters- No/limited inning/pitch counts. If they're getting people out let them go as long as they can.

4 Long guys- 2 pairs. "Starter" gets the first 5, "reliever" gets the last 4. Example: Happ gets first 5 innings, Dobnak gets last 4. Next time through rotation Dobnak gets first 5, Happ gets last 4. (They're just examples of back end guys, I don't want to see either of them really pitch right now)

6 relievers- 3 "go to" guys used in concert with the 3 starters. 3 "mid-reliever" types who come in when 1 of the 4 long guys have a bad game (2nd long guy always comes in in the 6th to allow them to go through their whole warmup routine) and need a reliever. Twins seem to like 13 arms, but could also do 12 and go with 5 relievers.

I'd go every other Starter/Pair/Starter/Pair to allow the 3 big time pen arms to have a day off in between each starter game. Obviously can adjust some with off days, etc.

When a starter gets hurt whoever your best pair guy is gets bumped up to take that spot and you call up your AAA guy to replace him in his pairing.

I'd be interested in the Twins "piggy-backing" young arms the second half of this year. Let them get in the routine of going every 5th/6th day, but limit their innings by having short (4/5 inning) stints. And anything to reduce having to see these bullpen arms in games would make everyone happy I think.

[Vanimal46]

10 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Give Ober a 4-year guaranteed contract with 3 option years like Dobnak, or just go ahead and guarantee all 7?

[ashbury]

2 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Am I stupid, or do I just keep walking into these?

[twinfan]

Ober should have started the 5th inning. Not pitching a pitcher because he hasn't pitched in very many games is dumb. If he hadn't thrown more than 75 pitches in a game then maybe, only maybe, wait until his next start but I agree with those who say he should have pitched one more inning.

[USAFChief]

41 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Give Ober a 4-year guaranteed contract with 3 option years like Dobnak, or just go ahead and guarantee all 7?

Probably too late. Front office should have gotten it done while he was still cheap and farther from free agency.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I’m confident we can get Ober’s fastball up to 100mph if this thread goes a few more pages!

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

4 hours ago, dbminn said:

An annual IP limit is not a good justification to pull Ober after 12 TB in 4 innings. He faced 22 batters and went 5 innings in his previous start.

Agree. Way too easy to get last night’s extra overworked inning back on a future date. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

2 hours ago, prouster said:

First off, I'm glad the Twins won. I'm on the east coast and fell asleep well before it was over, but it was nice to see a lot of quality performances on both sides of the ball.

Regarding Ober, I understand Baldelli's reasons for pulling him. However, I'd like to push back on the idea that it "doesn't matter" whether he got credit for the win last night or not. In the grand scheme of things, sure, of course it doesn't matter. (FWIW, we could also say that it ultimately "doesn't matter" if he threw one more inning.) But I think it probably matters to Ober, which is not something that I think can be dismissed out of hand. He has worked hard and pitched well, and he deserves the official record to reflect that. Just my two cents.

Not only for Ober, but the other pitchers. Guys like to see their teammates succeed and achieve things. It could have been a nicer game ball moment after the game. 

It doesn’t mean much in the grand scheme, no, but it seems punitive for Rocco to withhold that small statistical accomplishment from him. Not a fan of how that went down. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I’m convinced 29 out of 30 MLB managers send Ober out for the fifth. 

[Vanimal46]

33 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I’m convinced 29 out of 30 MLB managers send Ober out for the fifth. 

Could be 28… As @Mike Sixel says, what would Tampa do? They’d probably pull him too. Rocco’s learning from the best ?

[roger]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

3 Full blown starters- No/limited inning/pitch counts. If they're getting people out let them go as long as they can.

4 Long guys- 2 pairs. "Starter" gets the first 5, "reliever" gets the last 4. Example: Happ gets first 5 innings, Dobnak gets last 4. Next time through rotation Dobnak gets first 5, Happ gets last 4. (They're just examples of back end guys, I don't want to see either of them really pitch right now)

6 relievers- 3 "go to" guys used in concert with the 3 starters. 3 "mid-reliever" types who come in when 1 of the 4 long guys have a bad game (2nd long guy always comes in in the 6th to allow them to go through their whole warmup routine) and need a reliever. Twins seem to like 13 arms, but could also do 12 and go with 5 relievers.

I'd go every other Starter/Pair/Starter/Pair to allow the 3 big time pen arms to have a day off in between each starter game. Obviously can adjust some with off days, etc.

When a starter gets hurt whoever your best pair guy is gets bumped up to take that spot and you call up your AAA guy to replace him in his pairing.

I'd be interested in the Twins "piggy-backing" young arms the second half of this year. Let them get in the routine of going every 5th/6th day, but limit their innings by having short (4/5 inning) stints. And anything to reduce having to see these bullpen arms in games would make everyone happy I think.

Love this concept and want to see the Twins do something along those lines.  Especially if they are trying to keep Ober, and perhaps others who didn't throw a lot last year, to reduced innings.

[MABB1959]

Game was late but I did enjoy what I saw.   I don't really care about stats except for the basic ones.  I love to watch the game and the players.  I live to see Berrios pitch, Buxton to field and Cruz/Sano to bat.  Sadly most of these guys will be gone by next year and while I would miss them I want the best for them and unfortunately getting traded to a new team with a pennant race chance.  They play the game hard and are so darn good at it.  It's kind of like wanting the best for your kids and letting them go.  I have zero hopes of this team ever amounting to much.  If ever it should have been this year, this is what we have been waiting for since Target Field opened.  Sure we won the Division last year but to me one and done is the same as losing.  Getting to the WS is a winner!  Can anyone on here really way that will ever happen?  We don't rebuild, we find used parts and try to glue something together and it NEVER holds.  I want so much to stop being a broken hearted fan, but I do love the game just not this organization.  It is not small market or TV money.  I don't know what it is!

[FritzDahmus]

4 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

I understand, but I would say that with warmups before the game and at each inning the addition of an inning is less stress than another start.  If they want to have him skip a start I understand, but when your pitcher is doing well and you have a BP that could use a day off I want to use the pitcher.  

Exactly....everyone is acting like Mr. Spreadsheet.

The non-Mr. Spreadsheets among us - are simply asking for an attempt by Ober to get through a 15 pitch 5th inning...with a new 7 run lead....and get a win. Maybe he fails. So what. Pull him at 15 pitches....or maybe live a little....pull him at 20 pitches. My God...how dare we??!!!!!!!

I'll WTF myself......so you won't have to. WTF!!! ?

[Mike Sixel]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

3 Full blown starters- No/limited inning/pitch counts. If they're getting people out let them go as long as they can.

4 Long guys- 2 pairs. "Starter" gets the first 5, "reliever" gets the last 4. Example: Happ gets first 5 innings, Dobnak gets last 4. Next time through rotation Dobnak gets first 5, Happ gets last 4. (They're just examples of back end guys, I don't want to see either of them really pitch right now)

6 relievers- 3 "go to" guys used in concert with the 3 starters. 3 "mid-reliever" types who come in when 1 of the 4 long guys have a bad game (2nd long guy always comes in in the 6th to allow them to go through their whole warmup routine) and need a reliever. Twins seem to like 13 arms, but could also do 12 and go with 5 relievers.

I'd go every other Starter/Pair/Starter/Pair to allow the 3 big time pen arms to have a day off in between each starter game. Obviously can adjust some with off days, etc.

When a starter gets hurt whoever your best pair guy is gets bumped up to take that spot and you call up your AAA guy to replace him in his pairing.

I'd be interested in the Twins "piggy-backing" young arms the second half of this year. Let them get in the routine of going every 5th/6th day, but limit their innings by having short (4/5 inning) stints. And anything to reduce having to see these bullpen arms in games would make everyone happy I think.

Pretty much what I suggested a few years ago.....if you can't develop 5 starters, why try? Why not have 4 guys that throw harder because they throw less pitches, on the same schedule as a starter, that piggy back games?

[NapoleonComplex]

7 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

It's not about stretching him out, it's about keeping him on the mound as long as possible this season. Here are Ober's innings pitched since being drafted. I'm not sure it's possible for the Twins to be too cautious with the guy right now, given how little he has pitched in recent seasons (including zero game innings last year).

Year	Age	AgeDif	Tm	Lg	Lev	Aff	G	GS	IP
2017	21	0.3	Elizabethton	APPY	Rk	MIN	6	4	28.0
2018	22	0.1	Cedar Rapids	MIDW	A	MIN	14	14	75.0
2019	23		3 Teams	3 Lgs	A+-AA-Rk	MIN	14	13	78.2
2019	23	-1.3	Pensacola	SOUL	AA	MIN	4	4	24.0
2019	23	0.1	Fort Myers	FLOR	A+	MIN	8	8	45.2
2019	23	2.7	Twins	GULF	Rk	MIN	2	1	9.0
2021	25	-2.2	St. Paul	AAAE	AAA	MIN	4	4	16.0
2021	25	-3.8	MIN	AL	Maj	MIN	4	4	17.0

 

It makes sense to be cautious with Ober. What I don't understand is why Rocco didn't leave him in until after the 5th. His job as Manager is to also build confidence in our young guys. Being overly cautious could backfire. If he wasn't in complete control against one of the worst teams in baseball, then I get pulling him in the situation. But man ... would have been nice to line him up for his first MLB win. Individual achievements that boost confidence is just as important as being cautious.

[Brock Beauchamp]

5 minutes ago, NapoleonComplex said:

It makes sense to be cautious with Ober. What I don't understand is why Rocco didn't leave him in until after the 5th. His job as Manager is to also build confidence in our young guys. Being overly cautious could backfire. If he wasn't in complete control against one of the worst teams in baseball, then I get pulling him in the situation. But man ... would have been nice to line him up for his first MLB win. Individual achievements that boost confidence is just as important as being cautious.

I probably would have left Ober in but, as I said, the decision to pull him is quite defensible for a few reasons.

As for "getting that first win and boosting confidence", I'm not sure that's a thing anymore. Ober was drafted by and has spent his entire professional career in an organization that has essentially told its players (either directly or indirectly, not sure) the pitcher win is a worthless stat.

So would Ober care about getting a W? I'm skeptical, to say the least.

[NapoleonComplex]

I'd be skeptical about wins 2 through infinity. The first one means something.

[Brock Beauchamp]

3 minutes ago, NapoleonComplex said:

I'd be skeptical about wins 2 through infinity. The first one means something.

I’m not even saying you’re wrong, I’m only saying it should not be assumed Ober cares about a W in this era of baseball and having come through this farm system.

Even if he does care, I’d hope there are plenty of clubhouse conversations happening between him and the coaching staff that explains their reasoning and brings everyone onto the same page. 

[Dman]

56 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I’m not even saying you’re wrong, I’m only saying it should not be assumed Ober cares about a W in this era of baseball and having come through this farm system.

Even if he does care, I’d hope there are plenty of clubhouse conversations happening between him and the coaching staff that explains their reasoning and brings everyone onto the same page. 

I tend to agree with you.  For me as a person I would value that the team cares more about my long term health than a win.  He knew he did his job and contributed to the win.  An official "W" stat doesn't change that.  He pitched well and I am fairly certain that is all he cares about.  He pulled his weight, he did his job,  He controlled what he could control.

Would he have been fine going out for the 5th? I imagine he would have been, but as you said earlier in the thread I have to believe there is a plan in place for how much he gets used this year and he is aware of it.  He has broken down every year of his career so no reason to be a hero in a spot where it isn't required.  Once he and the team feel comfortable with him going longer I am sure there will be plenty of W's in his future.  For now though I imagine he is happy to be doing well at the MLB level.

[Mike Sixel]

I hope they told him ahead of time he was coming out after 4......set expectations with your employees. Always.

I have no idea if that was good or bad, but I doubt it has any long term effect either way.

[KFEY93]

10 hours ago, Old Twins Cap said:

I don't know, you have to wonder if the Twins aren't developing a pathology that basically says:  "You are either injured, or you are going to get injured, and so, we are going to play you in a way that will prevent you from being injured which means we are not going to play you."

It's maddening.

And of course, Baldelli, he spent his entire career dealing with injuries and it eventually ended his playing days early.

Not sure where this ends, but it will never be with a World Series title.

Can we get back to having passion for playing the game?

This 10000x , this! 

[ashbury]

26 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I hope they told him ahead of time he was coming out after 4......set expectations with your employees. Always.

Of course the expectations explicitly set ahead of time might (always) be, "you're done when the skipper says you are done."

I just got done expounding elsewhere about good organizational practices, baseball or otherwise.  But there are some ways that baseball is vastly different from the businesses you and I worked at. You and I are pretty good but not at a level that each and every MLB player is.  Managing a clubhouse of egos to match the talent may mean wide latitude in certain areas and narrow rigidity in others.  I would not presume much about this instance beyond what we see publicly.

[SanoMustGo]

12 hours ago, bighat said:

Eeeee, let's put on the brakes a bit on Ober. Remember how Smelzer, Thorpe, and Littell started out? Do the names Kohl Stewart Fernando Romero, Stephen Gonsalves ring a bell?

Ober's been OK, but hasn't exactly blown anyone away. Seattle is the worst hitting team in baseball (I think they've been no-hit twice already this season). I think Ober's performance says more about Happ than it does about Ober, unfortunately.

Any small chance the Twins had of ridding themselves of Josh Donaldson has likely disappeared. Enjoy Cruz while you can, he's not long in a Twins uniform.

But hey, a win. Better than a loss any day, no matter how you get one. Go Twins.

Ober did a good job against that Houston lineup too.  He is not going to win a Cy Young, but he could be a decent starting pitcher down the road.   Just because the guys mentioned above didn't turn out doesn't mean Ober won't.  Time will tell.

[SanoMustGo]

14 hours ago, Old Twins Cap said:

I don't know, you have to wonder if the Twins aren't developing a pathology that basically says:  "You are either injured, or you are going to get injured, and so, we are going to play you in a way that will prevent you from being injured which means we are not going to play you."

It's maddening.

And of course, Baldelli, he spent his entire career dealing with injuries and it eventually ended his playing days early.

Not sure where this ends, but it will never be with a World Series title.

Can we get back to having passion for playing the game?

This whole thing about teams dealing with injuries is changing the game.  The size of the contracts has alot to do with it.  The Twins(and other teams obviously) are trying to protect their investments.  They are thinking sacrifice today and think long term.  The problem with this thinking is it becomes a perpetual cycle that never ends for some players(Buxton).  There is a difference between paying injured, and playing with some pain.  If Buxton tells the team he is ready to play, put him out there and find out.  So what if he experiences some soreness, it's ok.

As far as WS titles go, lets get the FO and management to build a damn team that can win a single playoff game first...LOL.  18 playoff losses in a row, and what is the common denominator?

[mikelink45]

Even though I did not use the names you suggest I still have to respond to your warning.  On a site where your readers have a lot of emotions the ability to express them is important.  I am against names that have racial, political, ethnic, and bully connotations I do understand the need to clamp down, but when I read your note about "Mr Spreadsheet" I do not see it hitting that category.  I know there is a lot of angst between stat heads and non-stat heads, but that is part of the beauty of this site.  My gut reaction to your warning is be careful, censorship is a brush that must be wielded with great caution. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, mikelink45 said:

Even though I did not use the names you suggest I still have to respond to your warning.  On a site where your readers have a lot of emotions the ability to express them is important.  I am against names that have racial, political, ethnic, and bully connotations I do understand the need to clamp down, but when I read your note about "Mr Spreadsheet" I do not see it hitting that category.  I know there is a lot of angst between stat heads and non-stat heads, but that is part of the beauty of this site.  My gut reaction to your warning is be careful, censorship is a brush that must be wielded with great caution. 

We usually don't discuss moderation in threads but I'll make a small exception here because your post was thoughtful and we had a previous discussion recently about something else (if you wish to respond to this further, please PM me).

One of our core missions here at Twins Daily is to raise the level of discussion. The world already has Twitter and I think we've all seen what happens to the typical conversation over there. For every decent response, you have to wade through several posts of sewage to find it. We have no interest in participating in that world.

In this specific instance, any salient point about Baldelli can be made without a snarky nickname. If a point is good, make the point and let it stand on its merit. But being intentionally antagonistic without substance is not an arena Twins Daily wishes to participate in and there are literally hundreds of places a poster can go to satisfy that desire. Maybe everyone ignores "Mr Spreadsheet" in this one case (though that's generally unlikely) but it creates a tone where everyone raises their hackles and conversations become about antagonistic posters instead of the subject at hand. And that antagonistic attitude bleeds into the next thread... and the next thread... and the next thread. Pretty soon, that's the tone of the forum itself, just as it's the tone of pretty much everything on Twitter and Facebook.

As for censorship, we're a private entity and we never claimed to be a place for open discussion on every topic nor are we a place that allows all voices equal footing. We're very intentionally attempting to carve out a specific niche, curate both our content and its resulting discussion,  and create a place where people don't want to vomit after reading "the second half of the internet". The banning of pejorative nicknames is just one of many measures we take to reach that goal.