POLL: Is it time to cut ties with Derek Falvey and Thad Levine?

[cHawk]

DISCLAIMER: I am not taking any shots against the intelligence, character, or competence of either Derek Falvey or Thad Levine

I’ve heard some talk about how this team needs a change in FO. Is this talk for real? If it’s not then I apologize.

TBH I don’t really have an opinion on this. They’ve done good things and bad things, and I can’t really see if there’s a major difference.

[Dodecahedron]

My answer would have to be, "I don't know."

 

[cHawk]

Just now, Dodecahedron said:

My answer would have to be, "I don't know."

 

I quite frankly don’t either

[SanoMustGo]

I think what they do from now until the start of next season will determine what happens after.  And thus, their fate.

[In My La Z boy]

While I would love to see someones rear end get smacked for this, we cannot jettison these guys now. We've dug the hole and need to keep digging at this point. Sorry to say.

[Danchat]

You don’t give up on your front office after a single bad year. If 2022 goes the same way, then I would entertain the conversation seriously.

Falvine’s prospects they’ve been drafting are just starting to come up, and through the next 2-4 seasons they will be debuting and seeing how good they are at drafting and developing MLB talent. The pipeline has been mostly purged of Terry Ryan-drafted prospects, and it would be rash to reboot the system now. 

I do have problems with how poorly they handled this off-season and what the heck they have Rocco doing (IMO Baldelli is mostly a puppet executing Falvine’s vision), but for now the goodwill created from the 2019-20 seasons isn’t completely gone for me. But as I said, if this team is uncompetitive again in 2022, everyone’s jobs should be in question.

[Dodecahedron]

10 minutes ago, Danchat said:

You don’t give up on your front office after a single bad year. 

I agree.  The demotion of Bill Smith was crazy.

[mike8791]

Had to check the IDK button.  My knee jerk rx is both should be gone but I have a few reasons to give them more rope:

1. 2020 and part of 2021 was a lost time for the minor leagues, so they've realistically had only about 3 full seasons to develop draft picks.

2.  They have delivered 3 playoff teams in their almost 5 years.  How much of this success is due to their savvy pickups like Odo, Maeda,, Cruz and Pineda is subject to question but still, those were  big contributions to these 3 playoff berths.

3. They have modernized this moribund organization with new coaches, measurement tools, and new age techniques.

4. The last 3 years, incl. this one, has been a roller coaster ride, fraught with ups and downs caused by a juiced ball, Covid shortened season, significant injuries.  We really still do not know what this team is made of.

With that said, the leash should be short.  Give them about 10 more months(an offseason to retool and 2 months into next year's schedule, to see if the team has returned to at least respectability).  But here are the things I think they must accomplish to restore faith in their abilities:

1.  Fire Baldy now.  We need to find out if a new manager,  one who is old school, a stickler for fundamentals, hard work and leadership skills, can set this ship on a right path.  So long as Rocco stays in charge, we do not know how much his ineptitude and lack of leadership is part of the problem.

2.  Ownership and the FO must commit to resigning Buxton and Berrios, the only two players who play at all star levels.  Put simply, there is no way this team can get back in contention next year without them.  Pohlad has to give the go ahead for large salary increases not only for these two, but also in FA.  There are a boatload of all star FA SSs available this offseason.  Open up the pocketbook and sign one.  We have no top SS prospect ready to step in to this critical position.  If Lewis ever develops, he can play OF.

3. Falvine is good at dumping veterans at the trade deadline.  Let's see him take some trade risks this year by trading from our few strengths.  With Garver/Jeffers  we have a surplus at the catching position.  Garver should bring back a near major league ready prospect.  Ditto with Polanco/Arraez.  Expecting Arraez to be a good utility player and still maintain his elite batting skills was a fools errand.  Neither is capable of playing SS.  Trade the one who brings the best prospect(s).  We'll still have an above average 2B for a few years.   Trading Cruz is a must, but doubtful how much top grade talent he could bring.

4. Even assuming Berrios is retained for 2022 and Maeda returns to being a serviceable #3 starter(he is not the ace we saw last year), the Twins need to spend big on a FA starter or resign Pineda.  Without a solid front of the rotation this team will flounder again next year.  If one current Twins prospect progresses enough to fill the #4 spot, that in itself would be a bonus.  Expecting any more is a fool's errand.

5.  Bring the rooks up now,  particularly for the bullpen.  Now is the time to see what they have, even if they're rushed a bit.  Moran and Cano are two we need to see.  If these two flop, then the FO must sign at least two closer-types for next year.And bring up the best rotation arm in the next 30 days.  We have a few highly touted guys in Duran, Balazovic, Winder.  Let at least one compete with Ober by midseason to see if we have a keeper.  The result will dictate how agressive this team should be in the offseason.

[Rosterman]

I was not overjoyed with the free agent signings, although they did seem to plug holes and when looking at the bigger picture, the team looked competitive, if you were banking on a return to 2019 numbers for the offense and a trust that the staff could continue to make bullpen arms shine. I was a bit disappointed in the offense during spring training, but saw lower numbers across the teams.

 

Both are still dealing with a need to love certain assets from the prev2021 will be a major setback. But it is also a timerm? Is it just money? If it isn't, then why can't the team overpay, so to speak, to keep own developed players.

 

2021 is a MAJOR setback. But it is also an opportunity. To see what one has. Maybe push the development envelope a tad more. We don't need to see Dollar Store purchases on the roster. Really don't. And if we continue to tank, you just have to stop dragging out the mush because you purchased it and you would rather look like you are enjoying filling the bowl with it instead of just dumping the stuff and going with a more promising breakfast.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

Way too early (ok, by a year) to know much of anything. so I said "no".

that said, if none of the pitchers currently in the minors are good in the majors next year, I'd change to "yes". 

[jaimedude]

It is very much time for "new leadership" and to cut ties with Falvey and Lavine before they do any more damage to the twins baseball club. I was a very vocal critic of the last regime as having gone stale and being out of touch with the modern game. I would take Tery Ryan and his scouts back in a heart beat. last years draft and Falvey and Lavine picking Sabato sp the college DH convinced me that nothing had changed as far as prioritizing pitching and bullpen arms. By the amount of former Twins that Falvey and Lavine have cast off and cut as far as bullpen arms go and how they are doing tells me that it was a mistake to bring those two in to lead the Twins now and in to the future. Them just cutting ties on Eddie Rosario who had been a core player a key catalyst and then the bullpen arms and starting pitchers they have signed this year in Shoemaker, Happ, and Columme say it it time to clean house and move on. Shoemaker if I have to watch another game where he pitches I'm not watching or going to any more games this season. I had the misfortune of attending in person starts by both JA Happ and Matt Shoemaker. At least Happ battles, shows some emotion and tries. Shoemaker could just as well be a dis-interested lump on a log and he pitches like a dis-interested teammate with zero emotion. 

[jaimedude]

I voted I don't know but based on how fall the team has fallen I think this is more on Falvey and Lavine and their decision making than it is Rocco Baldelli. He didn't sign the pitchers to the bullpen who have failed the team miserably, Falvey and Lavine signed Robles, Shoemaker, Happ, Collume, who have all been abject failures. I don't want them running this season's draft, even if it puts the organization in scramble mode to replace them. 

[In My La Z boy]

1 hour ago, mike8791 said:

Had to check the IDK button.  My knee jerk rx is both should be gone but I have a few reasons to give them more rope:

1. 2020 and part of 2021 was a lost time for the minor leagues, so they've realistically had only about 3 full seasons to develop draft picks.

2.  They have delivered 3 playoff teams in their almost 5 years.  How much of this success is due to their savvy pickups like Odo, Maeda,, Cruz and Pineda is subject to question but still, those were  big contributions to these 3 playoff berths.

3. They have modernized this moribund organization with new coaches, measurement tools, and new age techniques.

4. The last 3 years, incl. this one, has been a roller coaster ride, fraught with ups and downs caused by a juiced ball, Covid shortened season, significant injuries.  We really still do not know what this team is made of.

With that said, the leash should be short.  Give them about 10 more months(an offseason to retool and 2 months into next year's schedule, to see if the team has returned to at least respectability).  But here are the things I think they must accomplish to restore faith in their abilities:

1.  Fire Baldy now.  We need to find out if a new manager,  one who is old school, a stickler for fundamentals, hard work and leadership skills, can set this ship on a right path.  So long as Rocco stays in charge, we do not know how much his ineptitude and lack of leadership is part of the problem.

2.  Ownership and the FO must commit to resigning Buxton and Berrios, the only two players who play at all star levels.  Put simply, there is no way this team can get back in contention next year without them.  Pohlad has to give the go ahead for large salary increases not only for these two, but also in FA.  There are a boatload of all star FA SSs available this offseason.  Open up the pocketbook and sign one.  We have no top SS prospect ready to step in to this critical position.  If Lewis ever develops, he can play OF.

3. Falvine is good at dumping veterans at the trade deadline.  Let's see him take some trade risks this year by trading from our few strengths.  With Garver/Jeffers  we have a surplus at the catching position.  Garver should bring back a near major league ready prospect.  Ditto with Polanco/Arraez.  Expecting Arraez to be a good utility player and still maintain his elite batting skills was a fools errand.  Neither is capable of playing SS.  Trade the one who brings the best prospect(s).  We'll still have an above average 2B for a few years.   Trading Cruz is a must, but doubtful how much top grade talent he could bring.

4. Even assuming Berrios is retained for 2022 and Maeda returns to being a serviceable #3 starter(he is not the ace we saw last year), the Twins need to spend big on a FA starter or resign Pineda.  Without a solid front of the rotation this team will flounder again next year.  If one current Twins prospect progresses enough to fill the #4 spot, that in itself would be a bonus.  Expecting any more is a fool's errand.

5.  Bring the rooks up now,  particularly for the bullpen.  Now is the time to see what they have, even if they're rushed a bit.  Moran and Cano are two we need to see.  If these two flop, then the FO must sign at least two closer-types for next year.And bring up the best rotation arm in the next 30 days.  We have a few highly touted guys in Duran, Balazovic, Winder.  Let at least one compete with Ober by midseason to see if we have a keeper.  The result will dictate how agressive this team should be in the offseason.

If they do get fired, I hope you get an interview. 

[yeahyabetcha]

I voted to fire both.  Not a fan of this brand of analytics, where only home runs matter and defense is an afterthought.  And pitching? I have not been able to figure out what exactly the plan is there.  Not fun to watch this team.

[Mike Sixel]

5 minutes ago, yeahyabetcha said:

I voted to fire both.  Not a fan of this brand of analytics, where only home runs matter and defense is an afterthought.  And pitching? I have not been able to figure out what exactly the plan is there.  Not fun to watch this team.

They literally signed Donaldson and Simmons.... Two players whose value is tied a good bit to their defense. It might not be working as we hoped, but that's part of why they are here. They moved polanco off short for a reason. Why do you think defense doesn't matter to them? 

[theBOMisthebomb]

1 hour ago, Danchat said:

You don’t give up on your front office after a single bad year. If 2022 goes the same way, then I would entertain the conversation seriously.

Falvine’s prospects they’ve been drafting are just starting to come up, and through the next 2-4 seasons they will be debuting and seeing how good they are at drafting and developing MLB talent. The pipeline has been mostly purged of Terry Ryan-drafted prospects, and it would be rash to reboot the system now. 

I do have problems with how poorly they handled this off-season and what the heck they have Rocco doing (IMO Baldelli is mostly a puppet executing Falvine’s vision), but for now the goodwill created from the 2019-20 seasons isn’t completely gone for me. But as I said, if this team is uncompetitive again in 2022, everyone’s jobs should be in question.

Yes, I am in the camp that if the ship is still sinking at trade deadline 2023 then you can start looking at replacing one or both of the Falvine duo. Patience is a virtue and we are in for the long haul with these guys. 

[RickOShea]

When I think of Falvey, I also think of Levine, and vice versa.  I'm not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing.  On one hand, you want a front office working together and 'being on the same page'.  On the other hand, it's good to have multiple view points.  If there is going to be a change it has to come from the Pohlads, and they have  not demonstrated a great sense of urgency in making changes, especially if it might affect the bottom line.  I ask myself this question:

Would the Pohlads  risk $15 million to have a decent  'shot' at making the playoffs?  Or would they rather not risk any revenue for a playoff possibility?

[Greglw3]

2 hours ago, Dodecahedron said:

I agree.  The demotion of Bill Smith was crazy.

Crazy like a Fox. Only great GM in Twins history was Andy McPhail.

[Greglw3]

34 minutes ago, yeahyabetcha said:

I voted to fire both.  Not a fan of this brand of analytics, where only home runs matter and defense is an afterthought.  And pitching? I have not been able to figure out what exactly the plan is there.  Not fun to watch this team.

You make a strong case and sadly, I tend to agree. Accountability fr players and management.

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

I voted to retain both. I think they need more time. They did a decent job picking up cheap options last year and this year it did not work out.  That’s what happens when you take chances at the lotto.  I hope they use this opportunity to pick up a few pitching prospects at the deadline.  Combine those with the few in the pipeline and work to develop them.  Poland needs to open up the pocketbook and sign Buxton and Berrios plus one number one or two FA pitcher this off-season.  If we fail next year then start over with new management 

[Greglw3]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

They literally signed Donaldson and Simmons.... Two players whose value is tied a good bit to their defense. It might not be working as we hoped, but that's part of why they are here. They moved polanco off short for a reason. Why do you think defense doesn't matter to them? 

When Polanco’s ankle is healthy, he’s all-star shortstop. He had problems with too many errors, changed his throwing motion and made some spectacular plays in 2019 - great range. 

The beef with Falvey and Levine isn’t really defense, although this may be the worst Twins defense since I started following them as a young boy in 1964. 

The problem is that they leave these gaping holes in the rotation each year and then sit on their hands almost the entire winter, then settle for bargain basement types.

[yeahyabetcha]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

They literally signed Donaldson and Simmons.... Two players whose value is tied a good bit to their defense. It might not be working as we hoped, but that's part of why they are here. They moved polanco off short for a reason. Why do you think defense doesn't matter to them? 

To say “defense doesn’t matter “ was maybe a bit harsh.  But the signing of these two aging players has not worked to help upgrade the defense.  In fact, the eye test and a lot of statistics seem to indicate it has regressed.

[Nine of twelve]

3 hours ago, Dodecahedron said:

I agree.  The demotion of Bill Smith was crazy.

NOT crazy. Bill Smith took over the team after the 2007 season. Four years later the organization had a major league team with a 99-loss season and a minor league system bereft of any hope. He was one of the worst GM's in MLB in the last 50 years.

[Dodecahedron]

12 hours ago, Nine of twelve said:

NOT crazy. Bill Smith took over the team after the 2007 season. Four years later the organization had a major league team with a 99-loss season and a minor league system bereft of any hope. He was one of the worst GM's in MLB in the last 50 years.

Strange.  This sounds exactly like 2021.

[Brock Beauchamp]

7 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

Strange.  This sounds exactly like 2021.

Not really. While the 2021 MiLB farm system's condition is somewhat unknown, it's miles better than it was in 2011. Smith did some good things in his tenure but many of his trades were just awful.

[TheLeviathan]

15 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Way too early (ok, by a year) to know much of anything. so I said "no".

that said, if none of the pitchers currently in the minors are good in the majors next year, I'd change to "yes". 

This is the important crux of it for me.....how do the arms they injected into the system play out?  Early returns on the bats are very promising but I withhold judgement until we see that fast approaching group of arms.

[Dman]

19 minutes ago, Dodecahedron said:

Strange.  This sounds exactly like 2021.

If Smith would have had a 100 win season he probably would have saved his job.  This FO is just two years removed from that feat and one year from a division title.  I don't think your comparison is even close.  I get that this is a horrible year and the FO has a share in that blame but all this talk about getting rid of them on the heels of two good to great seasons seems like a major over reaction to me.  I get that we are a results now society but getting rid of a FO that just delivered back to back division titles seems like crazy town to me. I think given their past accomplishment's they deserve more time.

[Dodecahedron]

4 minutes ago, Dman said:

If Smith would have had a 100 win season he probably would have saved his job.  

We will never know what happened exactly, but we know some facts.

The previous GM was still with the team.  Did he lobby for his job back, or did the owners walk the extra 10ft to his office to ask him to come back?  

The family had been hit by a large estate tax bill by Minnesota.  They felt it was very unfair.  Were they cutting salaries to get back on budget?  Smith made it clear he did not want to do that.

[Dodecahedron]

34 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Not really. While the 2021 MiLB farm system's condition is somewhat unknown, it's miles better than it was in 2011. Smith did some good things in his tenure but many of his trades were just awful.

He overreacted to Nathan's injury and some players were mishandled, yeah.

2011 had an "inadequate" farm system because the organization was looking at having to replace half the MLB team.  Nobody has that type of farm system.  Heck, thanks to Rule 5, it's not possible to have a farm system like that. 

This mirrors 2021.

[Squirrel]

Please stick to the topic ... this is not about Bill Smith but Falvey and Levine. If you want to do an over all compare and contrast, please start a new thread, but stick to the topic that cHawk started.