Neal: Deduno firmly in mix for rotation spot

[jokin]

In my opinion the WBC is legit. It brings out some cool energy you do not often get to see during the MLB regular season. The Dominican Republic played with an uber amount of guts and glory and Deduno was definitely one of forefront participants.

 

I have to believe that Deduno is the leader in the mix for one of the last starting rotation spots. If he is not, that just means that the Twin's Organization was not watching.

 

A great hope of mine is that Deduno takes a good amount of his swagger from playing with the DR and brings it to the Twin's clubhouse.

 

Maybe the WBC is the infusion of good juju Deduno needs to spin his career upwards.

 

Fingers crossed

 

If Gardy has his way, he's gonna knock that good juju right out of Deduno's swagger, right quick!

[Lesser Dali]

If Gardy has his way, he's gonna knock that good juju right out of Deduno's swagger, right quick!

 

That thought has definitely crossed my mind.

[DaveW]

If Gardy has his way, he's gonna knock that good juju right out of Deduno's swagger, right quick!

 

Ah yes, another needless shot at Gardy for no reason. /Yawn

[glunn]

Can we all at least agree that Deduno's slider is a superior "out" pitch?

 

I like Hendriks, but unless he develops an "out" pitch (or a Radke level of control), I fear that he is not going to be very successful.

[DaveW]

Now you're arguing just to be arguing. The DR was eliminated in 2009 by the Netherlands in the opening round- the whole country was primed to make amends for that blunder. How did your bet go that year?

 

I'm sure you're aware that the US had won the Gold Medal in hockey before 1980. You probably also knew that our country (yes, it is a mega-country, 315.5 Million, 3rd largest in the world) has won a boatload of medals- in every significant sport- at every international event. The DR, population 10 Million? Not so much.

Yes, I am well versed in US Hockey history, it is also worth nothing that the Russians had completely and utterly DOMINATED International hockey for the 20 years prior to the 1980 Olympics, you clearly have zero idea what you are talking about on this topic...you know what actually, it really isn't worth arguing with you on this topic, or in general. Now to just find that ignore list...

[DaveW]

Can we all at least agree that Deduno's slider is a superior "out" pitch?

 

I like Hendriks, but unless he develops an "out" pitch (or a Radke level of control), I fear that he is not going to be very successful.

 

The problem is an out pitch is only good for you when you can get two strikes on a guy, and if 8 years of professional baseball has taught us DeDuno has struggled with that. Also Hendriks doesn't need "radke" like control to be successful, yeah he doesn't have some great out pitch but he has a general pretty good arsenal to begin with, also he did pretty well in AAA as well last year as a 23 year old (6.9 k/9 isn't elite but not awful either). Sure if he gets a better out pitch or "radke" like control he becomes better, but that places him in the #2 range instead of his current career trajectory of a #3 or #4 starter in the majors.

[Lesser Dali]

Can we all at least agree that Deduno's slider is a superior "out" pitch?

 

I like Hendriks, but unless he develops an "out" pitch (or a Radke level of control), I fear that he is not going to be very successful.

 

I have two horses - their names are Sam and Liam. If I was a cowboy and I needed to go wrangle some renegade cattle, right now Sam is the horse I would choose to ride to execute my objective.

[glunn]

The problem is an out pitch is only good for you when you can get two strikes on a guy, and if 8 years of professional baseball has taught us DeDuno has struggled with that. Also Hendriks doesn't need "radke" like control to be successful, yeah he doesn't have some great out pitch but he has a general pretty good arsenal to begin with, also he did pretty well in AAA as well last year as a 23 year old (6.9 k/9 isn't elite but not awful either). Sure if he gets a better out pitch or "radke" like control he becomes better, but that places him in the #2 range instead of his current career trajectory of a #3 or #4 starter in the majors.

 

Dave, I agree that Deduno has struggled with control during his entire career and that an "out pitch" by itself is not enough. On the other hand, it seems to me that in general the Twins pitching staff lacks outstanding "stuff", and that Deduno's slider could win a lot of games if he can continue to improve his control.

 

As for Hendriks, I agree that 6.9 K/9 at Rochester last season was promising . And I think that he has superior contrl. But Baseball Reference shows only 5.5 K/9 over 108.2 innings in his two years in the majors, and it seemed to me that last season teams were figuring him out. I hope that you are correct that he can be a #3 or #4, but I doubt that this will happen without a significant improvement in at least one of his pitches.

[DaveW]

Hendriks is only 23 years old, DeDuno is 29 years old.

 

It isn't impossible for DeDuno to suddenly "find it" but it is pretty rare, (Whcih is why I said I would be thrilled if he could be a back end guy for a year or two). Hendriks is still plenty young, there is zero reason why he shouldn't be expected to improve.

 

We can point out Hendriks k/9 in his very short major league career, but it should be noted that in DeDuno's season last year he had a 1.09 k/bb ratio and a 1.544 WHIP that frankly is not going to get it done, and a few innings in the middle of march isn't going to suddenly sell me on the idea that he is a better bet in the future then hendriks.

 

I'm sure his "out pitch" looked a lot better in mid march when players are barely out of spring training then it will in the middle of April and into May once players are back to normal.

[notoriousgod71]

Deduno is at least not an exact clone of every other pitcher we have. I'll go with him. Hendricks just hasn't gotten high caliber hitters out at any point.

[DaveW]

Don't take my word for it, Go check out what the experts say about 2013 in regards to Hendriks vs DeDuno, you know that Bill James guy? I heard he is pretty smart, him and the other top projection guys ALL have Hendriks outperforming DeDuno this year. As Hendriks continues to progress and DeDuno continues to get further away from his "prime years" look for the discrepancy to grow and grow and grow...

[DaveW]

Deduno is at least not an exact clone of every other pitcher we have. I'll go with him. Hendricks just hasn't gotten high caliber hitters out at any point.

Shooter Hunt wasn't a clone either, he was exciting no doubt but he walked to many people. Obviously DeDuno isn't a hunt clone, but it should be noted that strikeouts!!! aren't everything, esp when you are walking a ton of guys to.

 

Hendriks did very well in AAA last year as a 23 year old, I get that he struggled in his cup in the majors last year, but its a little silly so say he hasn't gotten "high caliber hitters" out at any point.

[Lesser Dali]

From my perspective Hendrick's plays out to be a #4 starter. Deduno, although advanced in age, seemingly has more upside as his "stuff" is wicked, whether he can control it or not.

 

In 2013 the Twins have nothing to lose on taking chances. Given the circumstance, I believe Deduno should take presendence over Hendriks. Hendriks will eventually get his day in the sun.

[DaveW]

From my perspective Hendrick's plays out to be a #4 starter. Deduno, although advanced in age, seemingly has more upside as his "stuff" is wicked, whether he can control it or not.

 

In 2013 the Twins have nothing to lose on taking chances. Given the circumstance, I believe Deduno should take presendence over Hendriks. Hendriks will eventually get his day in the sun.

 

This was never about 2013 in a bottle it was about "the future" and that anyone who was more excited about Hendriks future on this club over DeDuno was wrong or whatever the guy said.

 

It's really not worth arguing though at this point as clearly people want to get all crazy over an insanely short sample size, I will take the hundreds upon hundreds of previous regular season innings, along with the experts takes and the fact that 23 year olds progress at a much higher rate then 29 year olds over a "nice story" of less than 20 innings pitched in the middle of march.

 

Also like I said early on in this thread, I really hope DeDuno can become a #4/#5 for this team for a couple years, in reality that most likely won't happen and is the absolute ceiling for him at this point, unless he magically learns at the age of 29 how to get the ball over the plate significantly more and cuts his walk rate in half.

[jokin]

Yes, I am well versed in US Hockey history, it is also worth nothing that the Russians had completely and utterly DOMINATED International hockey for the 20 years prior to the 1980 Olympics, you clearly have zero idea what you are talking about on this topic...you know what actually, it really isn't worth arguing with you on this topic, or in general. Now to just find that ignore list...

 

You keep searching for that ignore button, but apparently never know how to keep it working. Believe it or not, I am well aware that the Russians dominated international hockey for 20 years, so no, it is far from "clear that I have zero idea on the topic." Obviously, it was a big deal to win the Olympics in 1980, with the backdrop of the Cold War. But it wasn't the first time it had happened. And just for your information, only 10.3% of the players in the NHL in 1980 were Americans and the 5 from the team that did make it on American NHL teams were marketed for their Olympic hero status, even the bust, Jim Craig. The percentage of Americans in the NHL has now grown to 23.2%, so the generic good will for hockey that was established by the win in 1980 carried over to greater participative interest. Of course, to that point in time, the US had dominated in most every other significant sport for much of the 20th Century, so the sport became just a bigger piece of the mosaic.

 

But you missed the entire point in your original analogy. The tiny DR, with a paltry-poverty-stricken GDP per capita of $9400, has one true passion, one truly national sport, one primary color in its national sporting tableau- and its very first significant victory on the international stage! Baseball is their primary means of expressing themselves on that world stage, and have a rich history of doing just that. Deduno is now a part of it, a tiny nation with very little going for it- and deservedly proud of its conquering heros- can associate their newest baseball hero with the WBC- and the MN Twins.

[jokin]

Ah yes, another needless shot at Gardy for no reason. /Yawn

 

Needless, perhaps. To the point, positively. Sorry for making you too sleepy to find that ignore button.

[DaveW]

From my perspective Hendrick's plays out to be a #4 starter. Deduno, although advanced in age, seemingly has more upside as his "stuff" is wicked, whether he can control it or not.

 

In 2013 the Twins have nothing to lose on taking chances. Given the circumstance, I believe Deduno should take presendence over Hendriks. Hendriks will eventually get his day in the sun.

 

Also to be honest, DeDuno and Hendriks are both going to get plenty of chances this year, especially with Diamond not close to ready and the inevitable DL stint/Suckitude from multiple other rotation members.

 

Honestly its sorta the same thing as someone saying Colabelro (spelling error behind belief) being a better future guy for this team then Parmelee due to a "hot spring" or whatever.

 

In a perfect world both contribute to this team next year, but the reality is everything else suggests that Hendriks is the "horse to bet" on moving forward.

[jokin]

Dave, I agree that Deduno has struggled with control during his entire career and that an "out pitch" by itself is not enough. On the other hand, it seems to me that in general the Twins pitching staff lacks outstanding "stuff", and that Deduno's slider could win a lot of games if he can continue to improve his control.

 

As for Hendriks, I agree that 6.9 K/9 at Rochester last season was promising . And I think that he has superior contrl. But Baseball Reference shows only 5.5 K/9 over 108.2 innings in his two years in the majors, and it seemed to me that last season teams were figuring him out. I hope that you are correct that he can be a #3 or #4, but I doubt that this will happen without a significant improvement in at least one of his pitches.

 

Again, not saying he's the next Greg Maddux, but Maddux was awful his first 2 years. Maddux's K/9 his first 2 seasons was 5.8, but Mr Pinpoint Control had a BB/9 rate of 4.3! (Versus Hendrik's BB/9 of 2.7). Based on his strong minor league success, you gotta think Hendriks will continue to get better at building confidence in more effectively attacking the corners and continuing to develop his secondary stuff.

[glunn]

Again, not saying he's the next Greg Maddux, but Maddux was awful his first 2 years. Maddux's K/9 his first 2 seasons was 5.8, but Mr Pinpoint Control had a BB/9 rate of 4.3! (Versus Hendrik's BB/9 of 2.7). Based on his strong minor league success, you gotta think Hendriks will continue to get better at building confidence in more effectively attacking the corners and continuing to develop his secondary stuff.

 

What you are saying makes a lot of sense to me. I agree that if Hendriks can improve as you have suggested, then Hendriks could be a solid starter. Even if this takes another year or two, it's not as if the Twins have a lot of great alternatives. I am now curious as to what Maddux used as his "out" pitch, or whether he succeeded mainly based on working the corners and keeping the ball down.

[jokin]

What you are saying makes a lot of sense to me. I agree that if Hendriks can improve as you have suggested, then Hendriks could be a solid starter. Even if this takes another year or two, it's not as if the Twins have a lot of great alternatives. I am now curious as to what Maddux used as his "out" pitch, or whether he succeeded mainly based on working the corners and keeping the ball down.

 

I remember watching him coming up to the Cubs in the 80s. When he first came up, I was wondering, how do you waste such a high draft pick on someone with no velocity and not a lot of movement- and in this hitter's park? Then, in year 3 he started having success and the running joke was that he was doing it with mirrors. But what he always had was that ability to put the ball where the catcher set the mitt. And the mitt was usually low and outside, but whereever it was set, Maddux hit it. Umpires grew to love it. His outfielders loved it too, as they could basically take the day off as hitters constantly turned over on barely hittable pitches away or foolishly swung for the fences. It seemed like the Cardinals were the only team that figured Mad Dog out- go with the pitch the other way and settle for the single. Of course, just as he was ready to go on his serious HOF run, the Cubs screwed it up again and lost him to the Braves in FA.

[Riverbrian]

I'm not sure how Deduno looking sharp means that Hendriks is no good but whatever. lol

 

When it comes to Deduno last night... 2 of his 3 walks came in the 5th inning in the rain and a sliding foot strike. I'm not sure who here has pitched in similiar conditions but when your lead foot slides... It messes you up.

 

I'm not saying his control is fixed but to those who keep bringing it up... I'd like to point out that if you didn't know he had control issues and watched him pitch last night for the first time... you wouldnt assume control issues. He was sharp.

 

Control is being accentuated because of his past. Let him put the baggage down. We just might have something here.

[DaveW]

The problem is 15 good innings in March doesn't make up for the 860+ professional innings he has logged which clearly show he has "control" issues.

[Mr. Brooks]

Wow.

The Miracle on Ice is near the top, or at the top of every single list of greatest sports moments in history.

For someone to think that the DR winning the WBC is even close to that level is pretty short sighted, IMO.

[Mike Sixel]

If you are the DR, I'd say this is more important than the miracle on ice.....heck, if you are a lot of the rest of the world it probably is.

[jokin]

Wow.

The Miracle on Ice is near the top, or at the top of every single list of greatest sports moments in history.

For someone to think that the DR winning the WBC is even close to that level is pretty short sighted, IMO.

 

 

Wow. Time to think a little more globally Mr.(Herb?) Brooks? I sincerely doubt that there is even one "someone" in the DR who either, has ever heard of the miracle on ice, or if they did, cares one fig about it.

[Mr. Brooks]

If you are the DR, I'd say this is more important than the miracle on ice.....heck, if you are a lot of the rest of the world it probably is.

 

The DR is supposed to win!

I would equate this with the Dream Team from basketball.

Everyone was happy and excite to see a bunch of great players win when they should have won. But its nowhere near the level of the Miracle on Ice. There is a reason the MOI is still remembered 30+ years later. You can say "Miracle on Ice" to just about anyone on the street, and they will know what you are talking about.

I would be shocked if 30 years from now, people of the DR are still talking about winning the 2013 WBC.

The Miracle on Ice is not just about winning a hockey tournament.

It was about a bunch of rag tag guys who were thrown together, barely had any time to play together, and were not given any chance of winning, beating a powerhouse team who had lived, trained, and played together for years.

It was also political. A huge part of the legend of the MOI is the cold war aspect to it. This WBC win for the DR just doesnt have any of those additional elements.

I'm sure its great for the people of that country. I'm sure they will party and celebrate and be proud. But in the end its a baseball tournament, with no external ramifications, that they should have won, and 30 years from now it will hardly be mentioned, if at all.

[Mr. Brooks]

Wow. Time to think a little more globally Mr.(Herb?) Brooks? I sincerely doubt that there is even one "someone" in the DR who either, has ever heard of the miracle on ice, or if they did, cares one fig about it.

 

Right, this little thing called the Cold War was not global at all. Silly me.

[DaveW]

[jokin]

Right, this little thing called the Cold War was not global at all. Silly me.

 

Oh yeah, the two superpowers blustering at each other and messing around with every little country to gain "influence". Of course, our meddling in the Dominican affairs began way before the actual Cold War. We occupied the country from 1916-1924- the DR citizens had such a soft spot for the US from that naked agression, they began a guerilla war that simmered off and on well throughout much of the 20th Century. Of course, when the initial guerilla war was finally repelled, the US government installed military strongman and former convicted thief, forger and pimp, Rafael Trajillo in as president as the result of a rigged election. At the time the US State Department warned that "Trujillo is a kind of Frankenstein, brought to life by the US Marines" and likely to spawn new insurrections. Through America's maintainence of the control of all customs duties and trade for the country and an amazing ability to "look the other way"- "Trujillo's political corruption, military muscle, torture, murder, nepotism, commercial monopolies and raids on the country's national treasury enabled Trujillo to quiet his opponents and amass a fortune of $800 million." The "beloved" President-for-Life (or as long as the US supported him) Trujillo was finally assassinated in 1961, causing yet more domestic instability, resulting in the next US invasion and occupation of the country in 1965-66, ultimately leading to the installation of another former Trujillo puppet and anti-democratic strongman, Joaquin Balager, who ruthlessly ruled the country into the late 1980s.

 

 

So yeah, I'd say the handful of people of the DR who had any awareness of Olympic hockey (no cable TV on the island in 1980) either didn't care or were less than inclined to wave the American flag and shout "USA" in the streets of Santo Domingo.

[jokin]

I'm sure its great for the people of that country. I'm sure they will party and celebrate and be proud. But in the end its a baseball tournament, with no external ramifications, that they should have won, and 30 years from now it will hardly be mentioned, if at all.

 

And people wonder why the image of "The Ugly American" still regins supreme around the globe. Not too condescending, are we?