One Reliever the Twins Gave Up On Too Soon

[Major League Ready]

9 hours ago, Dman said:

 

I know they can only control so much as players have to perform but I am starting to question the path forward and the analytics leading them there.  They are smart guys and have way more info than I do but somehow they have taken the talent they have and made it mediocre or worse.  The farm while deep with solid talent doesn't look like it has many bonafide star players with Larnach and Kirilloff likely no longer prospects it leaves Lewis who is more wild card than sure thing.  Maybe Miranda and Duran or Balazovic but with their slow starts hard to tell where they are at and Duran is no sure thing as a starter.  I hope they can make some deals and get some higher level talent in the system as I think they are going to need the depth.  If they don't start developing pitching soon IMO they are sunk and their jobs likely lost because they will be going through a lengthily rebuild once again and I don't think the fans or the owner will have the stomach for that.

I am sure they will stick with the plan whatever that is but I hope they can make some deals to turn this team around.

 

 

Agree completely.  Who should they trade that would yield high quality prospects?  The only players I see netting that kind of return are Berrios / Buxton / Polanco / Arraez.  Maybe Kepler if he plays better the rest of the year.  

[old nurse]

18 games is really not much to judge on. Numbers look the same as career average in a lot of respects when he was with the Twins except for 2. His ERA is lower and BABIP is .217. Not to be a downer, but normalization is not kind

After a player has been with a couple of organizations it seems to me pretty ridiculous to criticize the Twins for letting them go once they finally have success. I suppose some pitchers that got away with career WAR of 0 means nothing is better than Coloma, but in the long run, nothing is bullpen filler, not a career bad year.

[twinfan]

Relievers can be good for one year or two and not so good the next year. But Littell was young and could have been protected. The sample size for 2020 was small. Also, the article never mentioned his pitch speed and bats missed which are important. Right now he, and the Giants, are playing over their heads. While it would be nice for both to continue, let's see where they are in mid-August. Hey, the Yankees gave up on Tauchman and he is flourishing with the Giants while the Yanks are starving for a left handed bat.

[jmlease1]

12 hours ago, Mark G said:

To me, it is simple.  They gave up on him because their analytics told them to.  The boy wonders of the 21st century do what their computers tell them to, and there will be times they get burned because of it.  And not only on who they give up on, but who they sign as well.  And not just pitching........oh, don't get me started. 

You're not wrong in that their analytics told them he's not likely to be a player with long-term success. And frankly, the analytics suggest that he's riding a lucky streak right now, which happens to relievers all the time since they don't have tons of innings. But Littell was also a guy who has been passed on by every team when he got pulled from the 40 man. The Twins were interested in bringing him back on a minor league deal; he just chose to go elsewhere as a minor-league free agent: no one gave him a major league deal, not even the Giants.

The Giants took a flyer on him on a minor league make-good deal with no risk. He pitched well enough to make the roster and has played well, but I doubt they're gonna offer him any kind of multi-year extension. We'll see where he is at the end of the year too...

[twinfan]

1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

Agree completely.  Who should they trade that would yield high quality prospects?  The only players I see netting that kind of return are Berrios / Buxton / Polanco / Arraez.  Maybe Kepler if he plays better the rest of the year.  

You don't break up an entire core of the team just because of one bad year/start. I could see trading Kepler and maybe Polanco out of this group but none of the others. 

[Major League Ready]

12 minutes ago, twinfan said:

You don't break up an entire core of the team just because of one bad year/start. I could see trading Kepler and maybe Polanco out of this group but none of the others. 

What did Chicago do?  Tampa traded Snell and lost Morton to free agency and yet they have the best record in baseball.  They have always been willing to part with players approaching free agency while they still have value.  You are welcome to your opinion but IMO you don't trade these players if your only focus is next year.  You trade them if you get the kind of return that makes you better for several years.

[Dman]

1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

Agree completely.  Who should they trade that would yield high quality prospects?  The only players I see netting that kind of return are Berrios / Buxton / Polanco / Arraez.  Maybe Kepler if he plays better the rest of the year.  

That is the sticky wicket it doesn't look like Cruz or Pineda will bring back much more than a top 10 to 20 player in another system so unlikely a player with "star" potential.  It would have to be one of the players you mention which is always scary because the team getting major league talent has a much better idea of what they are getting than the team getting the prospect because you just never know if their talent\potential will translate to MLB.

It is always sad to be the team trading away good talent to receive potential talent but there is a point where you just have to take that leap of faith IMO.  I think now is the time because this team is starting to remind me of the mediocre White Sox we used to beat up on before they started a massive rebuild.  They went for high quality star type players and they seem to be doing OK.  We don't have the talent they had to trade but I think now is the time to jump start the next wave because if they wait for draft comp on Berrios and Buxton it won't line up as well with the young players they have coming up right now.  Adding players closer to ready if they turn out could boost the team up but if the players they choose don't turn out then we really are stuck. 

The deals to get our better players will have to be overpays and at positions we need moving forward.  Maybe that means a three team trade but whatever it takes it would need to make sense for our team moving forward.  There are a fair number of rentals out there and teams generally gravitate toward players that meet their needs for the lowest price.  Most of the high revenue teams seem near the cap so money could be a factor this year as well.  Someone is going to have to really like someone on our team to get a deal done and I am not sure we have anything other than maybe Berrios who would be overly appealing as an overpay.  Here's hoping this FO can work a little magic at the deadline but I wouldn't bank on it.

 

[mikelink45]

Last night we got to see J T Chagois - nice reunion for him.  I see a BP of Pressley, Hendriks, Kintzler , Anderson and Graterol (both on IL) and Littell in my dreams. 

[Dodecahedron]

15 hours ago, Mark G said:

To me, it is simple.  They gave up on him because their analytics told them to.  The boy wonders of the 21st century do what their computers tell them to, and there will be times they get burned because of it.  And not only on who they give up on, but who they sign as well.  And not just pitching........oh, don't get me started. 

Yes.  Kind of sad.  Analytics are a tool, not the entire factory.

[KirbyDome89]

6 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

What did Chicago do?  Tampa traded Snell and lost Morton to free agency and yet they have the best record in baseball.  They have always been willing to part with players approaching free agency while they still have value.  You are welcome to your opinion but IMO you don't trade these players if your only focus is next year.  You trade them if you get the kind of return that makes you better for several years.

I'm not necessarily against making some moves but saying "do what TB would do," when this organization isn't in the same ballpark operationally isn't a surefire path to success. You need to have elite talent evaluation and development to reshuffle the deck and stay competitive. If not, you're the Pirates of the early 2000s. 

[Dodecahedron]

8 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

I'm not necessarily against making some moves but saying "do what TB would do," when this organization isn't in the same ballpark operationally isn't a surefire path to success. You need to have elite talent evaluation and development to reshuffle the deck and stay competitive. If not, you're the Pirates of the early 2000s. 

Yes.  It seems like the Twins had the most success when they tried to be the Twins*, not when they tried to be the As or the Rays.

*Except when "Being the Twins" meant "spend nothing."

[Dman]

9 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

Agree completely.  Who should they trade that would yield high quality prospects?  The only players I see netting that kind of return are Berrios / Buxton / Polanco / Arraez.  Maybe Kepler if he plays better the rest of the year.  

I started to think more about moving Kepler like you mentioned and depending on what they could get in return that might make some sense.  I like Kepler because he plays very good defense in right field and he can fill in at centerfield.  His slugging % is really good as well but then there is Larnach.  Larnach needs a place to play and he can play in right. He is not the at the same level defensively as Kepler but he likely will end up being better offensively.  Kirilloff can handle left and when they want a right handed bat out there they can use Garlick or Rooker if he ever gets a grip on the strike zone.  If they Keep Gordon as a Utility guy instead of Astudillo then they would still have an emergency centerfielder as well.  I would think Keplers versatility, power and  fairly low cost salary would appeal to some clubs but I haven't researched which ones.  It would help get rid of redundancy in the outfield, save on salary and hopefully net a star prospect in return.  Also would help clear a 40 man spot.  Twins might not want to do that but it seems at least viable to me.

At any rate I think they should look at all their players closely and decide if a deal makes sense or not.  Especially with how many player they might need to protect this coming year unless they want to live through another Baddoo scenario.

[Minny505]

On 6/14/2021 at 11:20 AM, chpettit19 said:

Obviously Ortiz leads Twins fans to make these complaints quite often. 

And with good reason. Even put into context, the DFA of David Ortiz is often regarded as the single worst player personnel decision in the history of MLB.

The only move that is even comparable is Babe Ruth being traded by the Red Sox to the Yankees, but as is often pointed out, the Red Sox ownership was at least handsomely compensated for giving up on that player.

The Twins literally get nothing but historical notoriety for being horrible at player evaluation. It doesn't just get brought up by the Twins fanbase, but is the gold standard brought up by talking heads and analysts anytime a team gives up on a player that goes on to have success elsewhere.

It's hard for that wound to heal when it is constantly picked at by both ourselves and others.

[Otto von Ballpark]

FWIW, Littell got the opener start for SF tonight and gave up 4 hits and 2 walks to Arizona without retiring a batter. Charged with 4 runs, and the next reliever stranded both inherited runners.

[ashbury]

On 6/15/2021 at 10:38 PM, spycake said:

FWIW, Littell got the opener start for SF tonight and gave up 4 hits and 2 walks to Arizona without retiring a batter. Charged with 4 runs, and the next reliever stranded both inherited runners.

I have established an account at FriscoGiantsDaily.com to register my views on the Total System Failure that their front office has presided over.