Fire Rocco? It's not going to happen.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I will reiterate that Rocco has proven nothing since he has been the manager. Yes he has won two division titles but look at the status of the division. The central has been terrible the last 3 years so there is no excuse twins shouldn't be winning that division.

Rocco inherited a pretty good team, but he still had to beat out a pretty good Cleveland team in 2019 and good Cleveland/Chicago clubs in 2020. Not enough to anoint him manager for life of course, but something more than "nothing" I'd say.

 

 

Rocco walked into a clubhouse full of talent and hasn't built upon it or developed anybody.

We never know how much to credit a manager for such things, but Buxton has improved every year under Rocco so far. Cruz somehow improved coming over from Seattle too, and Arraez hasn't skipped a beat. Of course, what Rocco can ultimately get out of C, 1B, 2B (Polanco), and RF in the near future will be a big determinant in his 2021 job performance.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Not sure what your asking. My point is the division has been weak past few years so played into hands of a good twins roster

 

My point is the other teams didn't win the division, even though it was weak....the Twins did. The still had to win the games, and they did. You don't fire a leader for winning their first two seasons, and starting out badly the next.

[Otto von Ballpark]

On Colomé specifically:

 

[Darius]

I’m sorry, but Baldelli is an awful manager. Just watch the games. He’s pulling his best players in late innings, leaving the team in ridiculous defensive alignments. He’s pulling cruising starting pitchers to get into the leagues worst bullpen early in games. He gives guys way too much leash. Players that should be in their prime (Kepler, Garver, Polanco, Sano, etc.) are getting progressively worse. He routinely makes awful challenges early, leaving him with none later in the game when it’s really needed.

 

It wasn’t his excellence that lead to this team winning over the past couple of years. The roster was loaded. You could’ve tied a dog up in the dugout and called it the manager and it would’ve won manager of the year.

 

The playoffs have been an absolute disaster. He should not be given a participation ribbon for making it there with this roster. He should be criticized for the team running it down their leg in epic fashion.

 

He’s accomplished nothing. He’s been a product of the team, not the other way around. I don’t care if he’s a “players manager.” He’s there to win get the team to win baseball games, not make buddies.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I’m sorry, but Baldelli is an awful manager. Just watch the games. He’s pulling his best players in late innings, leaving the team in ridiculous defensive alignments. He’s pulling cruising starting pitchers to get into the leagues worst bullpen early in games. He gives guys way too much leash. Players that should be in their prime (Kepler, Garver, Polanco, Sano, etc.) are getting progressively worse. He routinely makes awful challenges early, leaving him with none later in the game when it’s really needed.

 

It wasn’t his excellence that lead to this team winning over the past couple of years. The roster was loaded. You could’ve tied a dog up in the dugout and called it the manager and it would’ve won manager of the year.

 

The playoffs have been an absolute disaster. He should not be given a participation ribbon for making it there with this roster. He should be criticized for the team running it down their leg in epic fashion.

 

He’s accomplished nothing. He’s been a product of the team, not the other way around. I don’t care if he’s a “players manager.” He’s there to win get the team to win baseball games, not make buddies.

Ah yes, the classic and completely unverifiable “he won in spite of himself” argument.

 

It’s an argument that ignores little things like how the Twins pitching staff over performed expectations by a wide margin in 2019 and 2020.

[Darius]

My point is the other teams didn't win the division, even though it was weak....the Twins did. The still had to win the games, and they did. You don't fire a leader for winning their first two seasons, and starting out badly the next.

What did he win his first two seasons, while they had the easiest schedule in the MLB? They were swatted from the playoffs like a gnat by real winning teams both years. Zero resistance given.

 

I get people are so desperate for success out of this club that they’ll grasp onto anything, but the standards have really bottomed out when we’re talking about Baldelli like he’s some kind of legend.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

but the standards have really bottomed out when we’re talking about Baldelli like he’s some kind of legend.

"Won't get fired this year" is hardly "legend" status.

[Darius]

Ah yes, the classic and completely unverifiable “he won in spite of himself” argument.

Because the inverse is more “verifiable” in some way?

 

If you want to debate this, debate it. Passive aggressive condescension provides nothing.

 

I’m not saying Baldelli won despite Baldelli. I’m saying the team won “despite” Baldelli. You could’ve dropped any manager in here and they would’ve been a good team. Are you trying to say that’s false, and where is your “verifiable” dossier of evidence?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Because the inverse is more “verifiable” in some way?

 

If you want to debate this, debate it. Passive aggressive condescension provides nothing.

 

I’m not saying Baldelli won despite Baldelli. I’m saying the team won “despite” Baldelli. You could’ve dropped any manager in here and they would’ve been a good team. Are you trying to say that’s false, and where is your “verifiable” dossier of evidence?

The verifiable part is the Twins actually won those baseball games.

 

The rest is mostly conjecture.

[Mike Sixel]

 

What did he win his first two seasons, while they had the easiest schedule in the MLB? They were swatted from the playoffs like a gnat by real winning teams both years. Zero resistance given.

I get people are so desperate for success out of this club that they’ll grasp onto anything, but the standards have really bottomed out when we’re talking about Baldelli like he’s some kind of legend.

 

Not one person on this thread is doing that...at least argue against arguments made (or not, up to you).

[Darius]

"Won't get fired this year" is hardly "legend" status.

Granted.

 

Hyperbole aside, I don’t consider getting trounced out of the playoffs two years in a row after winning an awful division “a success,” as many are calling it.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Because the inverse is more “verifiable” in some way?

If you want to debate this, debate it. Passive aggressive condescension provides nothing.

I’m not saying Baldelli won despite Baldelli. I’m saying the team won “despite” Baldelli. You could’ve dropped any manager in here and they would’ve been a good team. Are you trying to say that’s false, and where is your “verifiable” dossier of evidence?

 

They won. To argue against him having any neutral or positive effect, you need to offer concrete, measurable, verifiable, facts. Otherwise, the outcome kind of points to him doing his job well. The burden of proof is all on the person arguing against the outcomes.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Granted.

Hyperbole aside, I don’t consider getting trounced out of the playoffs two years in a row after winning an awful division “a success,” as many are calling it.

It's enough of a success to not get fired this year.

[Aggies7]

last year doesn't count, it was a total sham. 60 games, exactly half of which were against the tigers, pirates, royals and brewers, who finished a combined 40 some games under .500. and still only won the division because the sox tanked and went 2-8 to finish the year. and an embarrassing two game sweep AT HOME in the playoffs against a team who finished under .500. people keep referencing 2020 as if it helps rocco's case for being the right guy for the job. I think it hurts more than helps, TBH

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

last year doesn't count, it was a total sham. 60 games, exactly half of which were against the tigers, pirates, royals and brewers, who finished a combined 40 some games under .500. and still only won the division because the sox tanked and went 2-8 to finish the year. and an embarrassing two game sweep AT HOME in the playoffs against a team who finished under .500. people keep referencing 2020 as if it helps rocco's case for being the right guy for the job. I think it hurts more than helps, TBH

Nobody is more bent out of shape than me about the last two postseasons but in fairness, the Astros turned around and beat the A's after dispatching the Twins in two games. Then they took the Rays to seven games. They ended their season one win away from the World Series.

 

It was a lousy showing by the Twins and I'm still mad as hell about it but the Astros were very good once the postseason began.

[Platoon]

Rocco won’t be fired, but he should be questioned. He obviously doesn’t have a premiere BP, and some of his big sticks are not so big after all. 
 

At the same time some of his pen decisions defy logic,  There is no doubt that spreadsheet managing is here to stay. But the spreadsheet doesn’t  cover a relief pitcher who is on a seriously bad roll, and maybe needs a breather to work himself back into a place of leverage. 
 

I am also not a fan of his rest schedules, but that criticism is somewhat muted by the lousy health of this squad  at the current time. It’s hard to know who’s resting, or who’s broken, on any given day. 
 

But there are other things that mystify. Pulling Donaldson last week and throwing the IF into chaos was just one. Plus his distaste for "no doubles defense" late in a game is frankly pretty odd. IIRC it’s cost us two games already. Lastly, the fiasco the other night with having to pull Berrios because he forgot that he sent his pitching  coach out earlier that inning was odd at that level of play. It’s possibly a sign he has too much going on in the dugout for him to track. Whether it’s a lack of a bench coach, or his head is buried so  deep into the  green bar, that he is missing the game on the field, which is where it’s actually played, is hard to say. But some his decisions indicate his attention is spread too thin.

[beckmt]

maybe Buxton and Berrios agents need to go to management and tell them they want to win or will be gone after 2022.  This cannot continue if we want to be able to sign decent players without way overpaying to come here.  

[jkcarew]

Not going anywhere.

 

Still he has about the worse management style I can imagine for turning around anything this extreme. Panic and screaming doesn’t help. But he NEVER shows any sense of urgency in his lineup decisions or his in-game management. Beyond passive and conservative.

 

A player or two are going to have to right this ship in the clubhouse, IMO...either that or a player or two will start tearing it apart.

[jkcarew]

 

They won. To argue against him having any neutral or positive effect, you need to offer concrete, measurable, verifiable, facts. Otherwise, the outcome kind of points to him doing his job well. The burden of proof is all on the person arguing against the outcomes.

307 home runs and a historically bad division..and two clean sweeps in the post season.

 

I’m with you in that Rocco’s probably not as bad as he looks this year. Many bleak options in the bullpen and batting order. But, nor do I think he was even close to as good as he looked in 2019. He’s still learning in my opinion, and 2019 didn’t really help him in that regard.

[D.C Twins]

 

On Colomé specifically:

 

Sooooo much for that.... rolled him out down 5-4 in the 8th still very much in the game to hit a batter and walk a bunch...

 

Rocco to Colome was overheard while taking the ball at the mound saying "Colome...why can't I quit you?!?!):

[KirbyDome89]

So Rocco's presence had little to do with the last few seasons but it's a primary reason for the start to this season?

 

Say it with me; scapegoat. 

[howeda7]

 I know he's not going anywhere now, but I have less faith in him than Mollie, Gardy or TK and it's not close. 

[old nurse]

 

The other teams didn't win the Central those two years.....did they have no excuse also?

They were who we thought they were, so no excuses

[USAFChief]

He's certainly having a rough season, but you don't fire a manager for 3 weeks of work.

[twinfan]

Maybe he won't be fired right now but the manager is usually the first to go if a team needs a shocking event to get them going. After losing count of the mound visits, if he wasn't canned or at least strongly disciplined, I guess he will be staying- at least for awhile. A manager is always only as good as his players performances and we stink right now.

[Mike Sixel]

307 home runs and a historically bad division..and two clean sweeps in the post season.

 

I’m with you in that Rocco’s probably not as bad as he looks this year. Many bleak options in the bullpen and batting order. But, nor do I think he was even close to as good as he looked in 2019. He’s still learning in my opinion, and 2019 didn’t really help him in that regard.

Agree with all that