SEA 4, MIN 3: Another Loss in Extra Innings

[SwainZag]

I will agree I hate this extra innings rule.  If you must use this rule, make it the 12th or 13th inning or something, the 10th is way too soon IMO.  For now I hate it though.

 

I don't disagree with management for pinch running Cruz.  I don't think Cruz scores on that passed ball and quite frankly I don't want his 40 year old butt out there trying to score on a passed ball in April.  He is too important in the long run.  

 

4/10 innings the Twins had a runner on 2nd or 3rd to end innings.  0/8 with runners in RISP.  One clutch hit all game and things are different.  

 

A little early to be trashing the bullpen.  How did the M's score on the bullpen today?  Against Colome: Infield single, stolen base, single.  Against Rogers: Bunt single, sac fly.  One ball went out of the infield.  They haven't looked "Championship" caliber, but it's April 10th.  I'm not fretting yet.

[VivaBomboRivera!]

SwainZag,  on 11 April 2021, 12:05 PM said:

 

... 4/10 innings the Twins had a runner on 2nd or 3rd to end innings.  0/8 with runners in RISP.  One clutch hit all game and things are different.  

 

A little early to be trashing the bullpen.  How did the M's score on the bullpen today?  Against Colome: Infield single, stolen base, single.  Against Rogers: Bunt single, sac fly.  One ball went out of the infield.  They haven't looked "Championship" caliber, but it's April 10th.  I'm not fretting yet.

 

This.

 

Way too many guys left on base.

 

The bats have also failed to bring home the second base runner in the 10th three times now.

[D.C Twins]

The current extra inning rules are comically ridiculous.

 

Having a home run hitting contest or a round of cornhole would be no less ridiculous.

 

If they really don't want to have extra innings... fine.... just start having ties and be done with it.

 

The current rules are simply embarrassing and shameful for a multi billion dollar industry.

 

....And yes, this would still be my opinion if the Twins were 3-0 in extra-innings.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Early observations: Twins don't know how to use the extra inning gimmick. Batting Astudillo in that spot, despite his 6-12 was wrong. You needed a guy to simply advance the runner, not swing from the heels and hit pop flies.

His ability to make contact is pretty much his only plus asset. A leadoff  PH appearance in extra innings where the runner on 2nd should, at minimum, be moved over one base is likely the best way to use him. 

[Aerodeliria]

Why Polanco as leadoff? I couldn't care any less about his ST. He really isn't hitting sans the two-run double against the Tigers (which was a very poor pitch). Arraez was fine in leadoff, but then for some reason he's nine?

 

I'm will also mention that there is concern from me about the fielding gaffes, which are now directly tied to two of three losses.

[h2oface]

 

How would that have helped? Cave still pops out and Buxton grounds out, and you lose all the same. Bunting with Tortuga gives Seattle a free out that could have potentially been a hit.

 

It helped the Mariners plenty. I think that was the point. 

[mikelink45]

 

How would that have helped? Cave still pops out and Buxton grounds out, and you lose all the same. Bunting with Tortuga gives Seattle a free out that could have potentially been a hit.

Actually I am talking about Seattle's use of the bunt and they did get on.  I still like it.

[DMN13]

Way too early to judge the bullpen.  While we haven't had 10th inning success, overall the pen has been solid.  Rogers, Colome and Robles look like good late inning pitchers.  If Duffy is as good as he was last year, then this is very solid.  I'd like to see more of Alcala in higher leveraged situations and if he can be an 8th inning type arm, then we have something going.  Still more power arms that may come up later in the year, so relax and let's see what shakes out going forward.

 

With the Polanco, LF, Garver and Sano struggles, it is hard to be consistent scoring, but hopefully there will be improvement with at least a couple of these guys.  If Donaldson comes back healthy for at least a couple weeks, that should help the line up as well.  The extra innings stuff will even out in time, but it is quite a positive to have 5 wins and the only 3 losses are all games tied after 9.....lots of excitement ahead for this team!

[shimrod]

"A couple brain farts and a mis-handled ball and 2 of those 3 loses likely don't happen."

 

I agree with this, but I don't have confidence this team won't continue to lose with brain farts and mistakes. If there's any accountability for poor play it's way, way behind the scenes. What appears to be lack of focus in the field and poor situational awareness both in the field and at the plate are a constant with this team. 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

What exactly should be the strategy with zero outs and a runner on 2nd base? Is it to swing away and hope for  a hit or is it to   advance the runner by a bunt, leaving 2 outs to get him home from 3B, if the bunt is successful?   Or is it to hit the ball to the right side of the infield? What do the statistics show. But wait, there's more. Here is the interesting challenge, Statistics in this situation do not take into account the speed of the runner, at 2B, nor   the batter's ability to bunt, nor the effectiveness of the pitcher to SO the bunter or cause a pop-up from the bunter.  Plus who are the next 2 batters scheduled to hit and is there a pinch hitter available for any of the batters that inning, plus can the pinch hitter play a position in the field, what is the score, plus are we the home team or the visitor, plus who is left in the pen? Is the wind blowing? Is it raining? Has " last call" been  yelled out by Wally the beer man? And the manager has a short time to input all this data, plus more that I have not thought of into the computer.   My point is that there are many variables to be considered quickly, in the heat of battle, and I am very comfortable allowing Rocco to make these decisions, even though, "statistically" about half the time, these extra inning games will result in a Twins loss., 

[TopGunn#22]

The situational hitting of the Twins is pathetic.  Often times when all they need a hitter to do is put the ball in play---they strikeout.  Move a runner over?  Pop out.  This has been painfully obvious in the extra inning games but not exclusively limited to them.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

This team is showing a frightening lack of ability to execute on the basics, such as "hit the ball".

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I’m surprised no one made anything about pulling Cruz. They certainly didn’t bring it up in the radio post-game. I don’t see how we can pull our best hitter from the game right there. Maybe later in the inning or if his run is the winning run.

Get ‘em tomorrow.

The Twins don't make it to extra innings without Cave on the basepaths. We all saw how Cruz runs the other day.

 

Those PAs by Astudillo and Cave were awful. They simply need to get the ball out of the infield and Polanco can advance.

 

You know, like the Mariners did...

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

This team is showing a frightening lack of ability to execute on the basics, such as "hit the ball".

You mean contact? We're tied for the 4th worst (non-pitcher) K rate in baseball so far. But, 129 (non-pitcher) wRC+ is the 4th best too.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

His ability to make contact is pretty much his only plus asset. A leadoff  PH appearance in extra innings where the runner on 2nd should, at minimum, be moved over one base is likely the best way to use him. 

Problem is, Astudillo isn't selective about his contact at all. He swings at everything, so a decent pitcher can pitch to him in a way that's going to prevent him from advancing the runner. Like the playoff game last year -- first pitch swinging, he grounded out to third. And yesterday, he swung at all 3 pitches and popped them all up.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Problem is, Astudillo isn't selective about his contact at all. He swings at everything, so a decent pitcher can pitch to him in a way that's going to prevent him from advancing the runner. Like the playoff game last year -- first pitch swinging, he grounded out to third. And yesterday, he swung at all 3 pitches and popped them all up.

Yep, this is a glaring flaw with Astudillo, one I hoped he would correct (with the caveat it would probably cause his Ks to rise accordingly).

 

I also believe it was the cause of his precipitous offensive decline as 2019 progressed. Pitchers couldn't stop him from making contact but it appears they can stop him from making good contact.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

You mean contact? We're tied for the 4th worst (non-pitcher) K rate in baseball so far. But, 129 (non-pitcher) wRC+ is the 4th best too.

Yeah, I don't really mind the Ks (well not more than my general annoyance at the overall trend in MLB) but there are times when quality contact is so important and this team doesn't seem to be able to flip that switch. Those Cave and Astudillo PAs were painful to watch.

[Major League Ready]

The games they lost were a product of mistakes high school players should not make.

* Colume throwing to 2nd.

* Simmons (gold glove SS) dropping a ball thrown square to his mid section.

* Rogers fumbling a bunt. OK that was a fairly tough play.

The good news is these mistakes are not likely to plaque the team. These guys are not likely to continue to botch routine plays.

 

I am also not on board with blaming the off-season BP moves. Wisler has given up 10 runs in 1 2/3 innings and 3 out of 4 appearances. Romo has pitched in 4 games and given up runs in 3 or the 4 appearances. Clippard is out for six weeks. Obviously, the SSS applies to these guys as well but so far Colume looks like a good swap for Romo and Robles looks like a good swap for Clippard. Letting Wisler go looks like the best move of all. Personally, I would wait another month before I even start to assess what was a good / bad move.

[cHawk]

 

The situational hitting of the Twins is pathetic.  Often times when all they need a hitter to do is put the ball in play---they strikeout.  Move a runner over?  Pop out.  This has been painfully obvious in the extra inning games but not exclusively limited to them.  

 

But what about Innings 1-9? They've done a better job of stringing base hits together this year so far. Even then, it's too early to say that the situational hitting will be "pathetic" all season long. When they've had runners at 2nd and 3rd, they've gotten them in for the most part in Innings 1-9.

 

It obviously has been in the 10th Inning but not "often times" in all innings.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The Twins don't make it to extra innings without Cave on the basepaths. We all saw how Cruz runs the other day.

 

Those PAs by Astudillo and Cave were awful. They simply need to get the ball out of the infield and Polanco can advance.

 

You know, like the Mariners did...

I was hoping someone would point that out

 

It giveth, it taketh away.

 

I would like to see Cruz advance to second base (which he would have, this time) before considering the substitution. The next batter was hit by pitch. But the next batter is just as likely to hit into a ground ball force out at second, completely wasting the substition.

[yeahyabetcha]

Overall, the offense and pitching have both been good. It should be fun to watch. Enjoy the season!

[Doctor Gast]

This new extra innings rule I'd believed favored home field but it didn't help us. I think too many players put too much pressure on themselves in these situations. I think when we come to bat in these situations, we need to look at a runner at 2B as an instant rally and our mind set should is to sustain this given rally and don't let pressure build up.

 

Cruz and Pineda were steady as expected. I really like Baldelli but I have one beef with him. He looks at Dobnak as a reliever when he's not, the mindset and function is totally different. A reliever is to minimize damage, save a game in a low or high leverage conditions and mop up. A starter's mindset is go out and win games. Although they placed him on the roster as a reliever they need to put him in situations where he can go out and be able to win the game. That means using him as a spot starter or all 3 games which we've lost. I don't know if he would've won all 3 games but I like my odds better with a warmed up Dobnak on his game than any basically cold reliever if it goes to the 10th. A reliever is out there basically cold, trying not to lose the game where as Dobnak would be out there already on his game trying to win the game. Let's say we would have won all 3 games with Dobnak, Dobnak would be in his groove and Twins would be flying high.

 

I repeat I'm not guaranteeing that Dobnak would've won all 3 games but I like my odds better. You'd think I'm a Dobnak fanatic by how much I've posted about him lately but really I'm not. I just see him as a weapon that the Twins need to win, especially looking at his skill set and what he's shown this ST.

 

I know many will look at his present stats and say Dobnak is a dog, forget him. I see those stats not as who he is but how he's been used. If he's used properly his stats will reflect who he is, a starter

[mnfireman]

Don't know if I the new extra inning rule or the fact that Baldelli doesn't know how to manage for it....

[mnfireman]

But to be fair, the players have to execute (read: move the runner over)

 

[Joey P]

We are essentially still undefeated. All our losses have essentially been the MLB equivalent of overtime. What I would like to see is move the runner on 2nd base rule to start after the 11th inning. Let the boys play it out for 2 innings, but once you get past the 11th, then things get boring and long, so start adding dome spice with a runner on 2nd. Or maybe, start the 12th with a runner on first, the 13th with a runner on 2nd, and the 14th and beyond with a runner on 3rd. 

[twinfan]

Blame Rogers if you may. Blame the manager for batting Polanco leadoff and pinch hitting Austudillo and not bunting if you may. The fact is that we left 13 men on base and you don't win ballgames leaving 13 men on base- period. 

[IndianaTwin]

 

This new extra innings rule I'd believed favored home field but it didn't help us. I think too many players put too much pressure on themselves in these situations. I think when we come to bat in these situations, we need to look at a runner at 2B as an instant rally and our mind set should is to sustain this given rally and don't let pressure build up.

Cruz and Pineda were steady as expected. I really like Baldelli but I have one beef with him. He looks at Dobnak as a reliever when he's not, the mindset and function is totally different. A reliever is to minimize damage, save a game in a low or high leverage conditions and mop up. A starter's mindset is go out and win games. Although they placed him on the roster as a reliever they need to put him in situations where he can go out and be able to win the game. That means using him as a spot starter or all 3 games which we've lost. I don't know if he would've won all 3 games but I like my odds better with a warmed up Dobnak on his game than any basically cold reliever if it goes to the 10th. A reliever is out there basically cold, trying not to lose the game where as Dobnak would be out there already on his game trying to win the game. Let's say we would have won all 3 games with Dobnak, Dobnak would be in his groove and Twins would be flying high.

I repeat I'm not guaranteeing that Dobnak would've won all 3 games but I like my odds better. You'd think I'm a Dobnak fanatic by how much I've posted about him lately but really I'm not. I just see him as a weapon that the Twins need to win, especially looking at his skill set and what he's shown this ST.

I know many will look at his present stats and say Dobnak is a dog, forget him. I see those stats not as who he is but how he's been used. If he's used properly his stats will reflect who he is, a starter

 

 

I don't have a problem with how Rocco used the bullpen yesterday. I'm not completely clear on when you're suggesting he should have used Dobnak. First time through, I thought you meant use Dobnak in the 10th. If that's the case, I disagree -- I'd prefer not bringing him in to extra innings, since by definition he will start with runners on base. 

 

But if you are suggesting that Rocco go with him in the 7th, I'll sorta agree with you. In general terms, a tie game with multiple innings available could be a spot for him. In yesterday's case, with a rested bullpen, I'm fine with the approach he took.

 

Rocco also always takes the long view, so I'm guessing he's looking to Shoemaker and Happ today and tomorrow as times he's more likely to need multiple innings from Dobnak. Which does lead me to another preference. I wish they'd align the rotation so that Maeda and Berrios, the two guys most likely to go long, weren't back-to-back. Three days of Pineda-Shoemaker-Happ is the starting combo most likely to tax the bullpen.   

 

[Doctor Gast]

I don't have a problem with how Rocco used the bullpen yesterday. I'm not completely clear on when you're suggesting he should have used Dobnak. First time through, I thought you meant use Dobnak in the 10th. If that's the case, I disagree -- I'd prefer not bringing him in to extra innings, since by definition he will start with runners on base. 

 

But if you are suggesting that Rocco go with him in the 7th, I'll sorta agree with you. In general terms, a tie game with multiple innings available could be a spot for him. In yesterday's case, with a rested bullpen, I'm fine with the approach he took.

 

Rocco also always takes the long view, so I'm guessing he's looking to Shoemaker and Happ today and tomorrow as times he's more likely to need multiple innings from Dobnak. Which does lead me to another preference. I wish they'd align the rotation so that Maeda and Berrios, the two guys most likely to go long, weren't back-to-back. Three days of Pineda-Shoemaker-Happ is the starting combo most likely to tax the bullpen.

 

To clarify, I'd put Dobnak in to relieve any starter in a game where he'd have a chance to win the game, for however long it takes even it takes extra innings. I'd hate to put anyone in extra innings, the way it sits now, especially Dobnak.

[Trov]

One comment I have is I am sick of Dick saying in the three losses all the Twins have done wrong is a few singles and walk.  No, they have failed to score runs under the same situation.  They had runners 1st and 3rd no outs and failed to score in second game.  Sure on defense they have only given up some singles, but on offense they have done nothing.  I hope he quits talking like the rules are against the Twins, they just need to execute when they are hitting.  

[KirbyDome89]

 

Problem is, Astudillo isn't selective about his contact at all. He swings at everything, so a decent pitcher can pitch to him in a way that's going to prevent him from advancing the runner. Like the playoff game last year -- first pitch swinging, he grounded out to third. And yesterday, he swung at all 3 pitches and popped them all up.

I'm not defending Astudillo, or that AB, but if his lone skill isn't even usable in PH situations his place on the roster seems head scratching. I wasn't on the Astudillo train leaving ST but his contact ability and "versatility," were touted as the reason for having him on the active roster. We know about the defensive issues, and now he's a part time PH candidate.