Miller: Gardy wants more pop off the bench....

[righty8383]

Chris Colabello would be my choice for sure. limited in his fielding options. But I would love to see him get a shot.

[Rick Niedermann]

Jeff Clement should be thrilled to hear Gardy say that. PH-1B-Emergency Catcher with Long Ball Power.

[twinsnorth49]

http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smileys-and-emoticons/praying/smileys-praying-929024.gifI believe, I believe, I believe....

[70charger]

What's wrong with poop jokes?

 

They're pretty ****ty.

[snepp]

They're pretty ****ty.

 

Well that stinks.

[CDog]

I believe it's when Morneau was shelved for a couple weeks at the beginning of May that brought that along...

 

Yes, that's WHEN Butera came up, but it doesn't solve the riddle of why (or more importantly why he stayed from then on). Morneau returned, and Butera stayed. Not to mention, there isn't even a direct link since they don't play the same position (the obvious indirect link is the primary catcher also plays 1B). At any rate, this question got stuck in my craw, so I decided to look at box scores to see if I could shed some light on what underlying difference in the lineup made it OK to start the season with no Butera, but made him stay once he got there. Bear with me...

 

The first fairly interesting observation I made, was that Doumit never DH'd in the first 20 games of the season. And Mauer only did four times. Morneau was DH'ing essentially every day.

 

Parmelee made the team out of Spring Training as the starting 1B. He started there 18 of the first 28 games. The general situation was Parmelee at 1B, Morneau DH'ing, Mauer catching. Doumit got an occasional start in RF, and otherwise would Catch while Mauer played 1B. After Game 22, Morneau went out for a couple of weeks. It seems like Mauer may have been banged up, but not fully injured as he caught Game 21, had 22 off, and then DH'd four games in a row.

 

Butera debuted in Game 25. From Game 29 to 36, Parmelee only got three starts at 1B, and with Morneau out that meant Mauer was playing half 1B and half C, while BUTERA caught the other half the time and Doumit DH'd. In Game 37, Doumit caught and tweaked his calf, remember? So he only DH'd from then until Game 49. Game 37 was also Morneau's return, but now he had been made the 1B instead of the DH (they were heading to interleague play AND Parmelee was sent down because he started out pretty awful).

 

What's this all mean? Well, as near as I can tell, the difference between pre-Butera, and when Morneau got back is that Morneau moved back to 1B making Doumit the frequent DH. When Doumit wasn't DH'ing after this point, it was often Mauer. It seems like MAYBE "they" felt OK with just two catchers when they had someone else DH'ing most of the time, but when the DH role was filled primarily by one of the two catchers, "they" felt there should be a third on the roster. To me, all this means it's likely there will be a third catcher if Doumit is the presumed first option at DH.

[ThePuck]

Yes, that's WHEN Butera came up, but it doesn't solve the riddle of why (or more importantly why he stayed from then on). Morneau returned, and Butera stayed. Not to mention, there isn't even a direct link since they don't play the same position (the obvious indirect link is the primary catcher also plays 1B).

 

I believe it has everything to do with the indirect link...Gardy wanted Butera on the team the whole time, Ryan worded his statements well during ST when he'd say things like that's going to be Gardy's call; however, it seemed he was roundaboutly saying, yeah, not such a good idea. So when Morny needed those 15 or so days off, bam....that's what Gardy needed. Funny thing is though, Mauer didn't even play much 1B when Morny was out during that time, but still...

 

Just my opinion

 

Here's Gardy's reasoning: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120501&content_id=30092206&notebook_id=30092214&vkey=notebook_min&c_id=min

[CDog]

I believe it has everything to do with the indirect link...Gardy wanted Butera on the team the whole time, Ryan worded his statements well during ST when he'd say things like that's going to be Gardy's call; however, it seemed he was roundaboutly saying, yeah, not such a good idea. So when Morny needed those 15 or so days off, bam....that's what Gardy needed. Funny thing is though, Mauer didn't even play much 1B when Morny was out during that time, but still...

 

Just my opinion

 

Here's Gardy's reasoning: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120501&content_id=30092206&notebook_id=30092214&vkey=notebook_min&c_id=min

 

Did Gardy get Mauer to go along with pretending the foul tip hit his knee and then keep him from catching for a week while Mauer went paitiently along with it? Who doctored the footage to make it look the ball hit just above the shin guard? Just wondering how deep this conspiracy theory goes. (That was meant to be funny before you, or anyone else, gets all upset about it.)

[CDog]

I believe it has everything to do with the indirect link...Gardy wanted Butera on the team the whole time, Ryan worded his statements well during ST when he'd say things like that's going to be Gardy's call; however, it seemed he was roundaboutly saying, yeah, not such a good idea. So when Morny needed those 15 or so days off, bam....that's what Gardy needed. Funny thing is though, Mauer didn't even play much 1B when Morny was out during that time, but still...

 

Just my opinion

 

Here's Gardy's reasoning: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20120501&content_id=30092206&notebook_id=30092214&vkey=notebook_min&c_id=min

 

As a more serious reply, I don't think it's that funny, nor that true, that Mauer didn't play much 1B with Morneau out. He'd played there 4 of 22 games before Morneau's injury, and 5 of 14 after. Both before and after, Parmelee was the "every day" 1B (until Morneau returned). The position vacated by Morneau was more DH, and that was filled by Mauer initially and then Doumit. When Morneau returned, he came back to 1B instead of DH.

[mcrow]

If by "Pop" they mean some old guy , then Gardy is likely to get what he wants.

[ThePuck]

As a more serious reply, I don't think it's that funny, nor that true, that Mauer didn't play much 1B with Morneau out. He'd played there 4 of 21 games before Morneau's injury, and 4 of 14 after. Both before and after, Parmelee was the "every day" 1B (until Morneau returned). The position vacated by Morneau was more DH, and that was filled by Mauer initially and then Doumit. When Morneau returned, he came back to 1B instead of DH.

 

Funny as in peculiar...He only played 5 games when Morneau took his break in March...which was the time frame I specified in my post.

 

I'm gonna back away from this, because you seem to be getting testy and I'm not overly interested in having it escalate

[Kwak]

As a more serious reply, I don't think it's that funny, nor that true, that Mauer didn't play much 1B with Morneau out. He'd played there 4 of 21 games before Morneau's injury, and 4 of 14 after. Both before and after, Parmelee was the "every day" 1B (until Morneau returned). The position vacated by Morneau was more DH, and that was filled by Mauer initially and then Doumit. When Morneau returned, he came back to 1B instead of DH.

 

If I may be allowed to jump into your conversation let me introduce some other facts and see if they are illuminating to form a conclusion to your discussion concerning Butera, et al. Mauer's injury did heal and Morneau played regularly at 1B with few off-days. Butera played far more than "an emergency catcher". Butera's hitting for the rest of the season was substandard, but he was not demoted to AAA like Parmalee--he stayed with the Twins. Hermann was promoted in September but hit poorly in but a very small sample of ABs (18 I think).

Considering neither Hermann's nor Butera's 2012 season was strong at the MLB level why didn't the Twins sign "competition" for them? Why was Parmalee's poor hitting deemed for banishment but not Butera's? To respond "he needed AAA experience" isn't any more relevant to Parmalee than for Butera. To me, the real answer is derived from "Why was anybody signed to compete with Butera (and Hermann) to be a bench catcher for the Twins?" Those guys are plentiful, cheap, and can easily be dismissed without issue. The answer is easy.

[CDog]

Funny as in peculiar...He only played 5 games when Morneau took his break in March...which was the time frame I specified in my post.

 

I'm gonna back away from this, because you seem to be getting testy and I'm not overly interested in having it escalate

 

Not feeling testy at all (which is why I made the extra point out to indicate that in my first reply). I'm assuming you meant May, not March. My point was that during the games Morneau was out (which corresponded to when Butera first arrived), Mauer basically filled in for him. Up to the point he went out hurt (21 games), Morneau played almost exclusively DH with a few (four) games at 1B sprinkled in. During the 14 games he was out, Mauer started at DH 4 times and 1B 5. The original "starting first baseman" was Parmelee and he continued to be when Morneau was out.

[CDog]

If I may be allowed to jump into your conversation let me introduce some other facts and see if they are illuminating to form a conclusion to your discussion concerning Butera, et al. Mauer's injury did heal and Morneau played regularly at 1B with few off-days. Butera played far more than "an emergency catcher". Butera's hitting for the rest of the season was substandard, but he was not demoted to AAA like Parmalee--he stayed with the Twins. Hermann was promoted in September but hit poorly in but a very small sample of ABs (18 I think).

Considering neither Hermann's nor Butera's 2012 season was strong at the MLB level why didn't the Twins sign "competition" for them? Why was Parmalee's poor hitting deemed for banishment but not Butera's? To respond "he needed AAA experience" isn't any more relevant to Parmalee than for Butera. To me, the real answer is derived from "Why was anybody signed to compete with Butera (and Hermann) to be a bench catcher for the Twins?" Those guys are plentiful, cheap, and can easily be dismissed without issue. The answer is easy.

 

No, this conversation is being held in the Private Section....oh, wait, nevermind....

 

I think your post gets at a lot of things that are different than what I was wondering about in this topic, though. My angle was to take the original post's thought that Gardy wanted more pop, presuming that a good place to do that would be to replace Butera, and then to try and see how likely this was based on what was different at the start of last year (when he wasn't on the 25-man) and the remainder (when he was).

 

Your facts that Butera played more than "emergency" levels is undisputed, but my point was to figure out WHY. I maintain it's because Morneau moved from DH where he started the year to 1B when he returned from injury. This left Mauer and Doumit DH'ing frequently (almost always one or the other), and I believe THAT is the reason Butera was kept and played (I have made no conclusion about whether this is right or wrong, simply that it was "the reason").

 

My guess as to why Parmelee was demoted when he hit poorly and Butera was not: Parmelee had been the STARTING 1B. His replacement became Justin Morneau. Butera was the third-most-frequently used catcher. His replacement was...Hermann?

 

My guess as to why nobody from outside the organization was brought in to possibly be that third catcher instead of the aforementioned group: (This space intentionally left blank)

[ThePuck]

Not feeling testy at all (which is why I made the extra point out to indicate that in my first reply). I'm assuming you meant May, not March. My point was that during the games Morneau was out (which corresponded to when Butera first arrived), Mauer basically filled in for him. Up to the point he went out hurt (21 games), Morneau played almost exclusively DH with a few (four) games at 1B sprinkled in. During the 14 games he was out, Mauer started at DH 5 times and 1B 4. The original "starting first baseman" was Parmelee and he continued to be when Morneau was out.

 

yes, I meant May, and I was specific about what I was saying...you changed the scope. Remember what my original argument was as to why Butera was brought up? Mauer at 1st, Doumit at catcher, Butera up. I said that, but then also pointed out the amount of games Mauer played at first when Morny was out was five. Meaning, I was pretty much saying that although that my original thought process was Butera was brought up to be insurance for catcher so Mauer could play 1B, the fact Mauer only played 5 games at 1B while Morny was out hurts my original argument making it funny (peculiar, not haha)

[CDog]

yes, I meant May, and I was specific about what I was saying...you changed the scope. Remember what my original argument was as to why Butera was brought up? Mauer at 1st, Doumit at catcher, Butera up. I said that, but then also pointed out the amount of games Mauer played at first when Morny was out was five. Meaning, I was pretty much saying that although that my original thought process was Butera was brought up to be insurance for catcher so Mauer could play 1B, the fact Mauer only played 5 games at 1B while Morny was out hurts my original argument making it funny (peculiar, not haha)

 

Now I'm just plain confused.

 

Your first post in this thread, in its entirety, said Butera came up when Morneau went out for a couple of weeks. There was no additional commentary as to why or anything about the Morneau-Mauer-Doumit-Butera chain. From there I wanted to get at what was different, especially when Morneau came back. Since Butera stayed, it didn't seem as simple as Morneau Out = Butera In.

 

In response to my attempt to look at what changed, you replied that Gardenhire wanted Butera all along and used Morneau going out as his excuse. I still don't see how that makes sense, and don't see where you made the arguments that you seem to wonder how I missed. Was it in a different thread? I don't see it here. I apologize if I'm missing it somehow.

 

All of that is outside the topic of the thread, though, and I'll re-state the essence of where I was going to hopefully get us out of the mire here: Butera was kept on the roster after Morneau came back because the DH was almost always Doumit or Mauer. Before Morneau went out, it wasn't necessary because Morneau was the DH (and, therefore, Doumit was not). So if the hope is that there is "more pop off the bench" in place of a third catcher, it seems unlikely to me unless A) someone other than Doumit is the primary DH, or the popper can also fill in at catcher.