Bollinger: Herrmann Hopes to break camp as 3rd catcher

[Mike Sixel]

A team should play its best players...an increase in backup catcher is small, but that does not mean you should accept bad play just because the impact is small. I mean, what I'd he never reached base, would you sign a guy that hits like he does now, just for some increment? I read here a lot they should not make this change or that change because the increase in outcomes is so small....by that logic you would only endorse adding superstars....but that us not how the world works. Every small improvement helps. Add enough small improvements up, and you have a big improvement.

[stringer bell]

If the club feels they need a third catcher, aren't there better options available at the cost? Drew Butera is a woefully inept hitter. Isn't there someone out there who is a defene-first catcher, but can top .600 in OPS? That is my gripe with the Butera issue--the argument can be made that given the other two catchers and where they play, that the Twins are one of the few teams that can use a third receiver, but if so, can't they do better than Drew Butera?

[snepp]

A team should play its best players...an increase in backup catcher is small, but that does not mean you should accept bad play just because the impact is small. I mean, what I'd he never reached base, would you sign a guy that hits like he does now, just for some increment? I read here a lot they should not make this change or that change because the increase in outcomes is so small....by that logic you would only endorse adding superstars....but that us not how the world works. Every small improvement helps. Add enough small improvements up, and you have a big improvement.

 

The word of the month is, "marginal."

 

Replacing Butera would be a marginal improvement, Marcum and Saunders would be marginal upgrades, getting a middle infielder with a pulse would be marginal, another reliever with a prayer of striking someone out is marginal, attendance improvements would be marginal. So on and so forth.

[TheLeviathan]

Apparently now the count is at least 5 people that have found the same arguments I have "fabricated" and "exaggerated". Strange, must be telepathy. Though, I guess maybe my argument is extreme in the sense that Butera is "extremely" bad at hitting.

 

But whatever, I'm done, Nick can rant away and mislabel me however he wants from here. Butera is a bad hitter, if we have to be strapped with a third catcher (an assumption imbedded in the original article) then I wish we had one that at least brought some versatility and non-historically-awful play to the table.

[Mike Sixel]

Thank you snepp....that's what I tried to type....

[Riverbrian]

Now we're hearing Jeff Clement mentioned -- come on, the dude isn't even a catcher.

 

That seems like a weird requirement. You want your third-string player at the worst offensive position on the field to be a pinch-hitter candidate? How many backup catchers are used as pinch-hitters around the league?

 

For clarification... I'm not here to bury nor praise Drew Butera... I agree that we are attaching too much of the clubs woes on his shoulders. People do that... It is what it is...

 

My point is mainly centered on the need for a 3rd catcher. I understand why Gardenhire requires a 3rd catcher and I accept it... I just don't see the acuteness of that need personally.

 

Gardy requires it and if that's the case... I'm simply saying that I would take Clement over Butera. If those are my two choices and right now they are our two choices... 3 choices if you include Hermann.

 

I'd take Clement because he can reach the seats and that need for some pop off the bench is much more acute in my opinion. I have no problem with Florimon starting at SS if he brings the leather but there will come a time when they are down a run with the bases empty and two outs in the ninth and Florimon or Carroll or Mastro or Castro at the plate. The current Twins don't have a one swing late inning option at this time. It doesn't help much to pinch hit Castro for Florimon. Gardy and I disagree on this issue... We need pop on the bench more than a 3rd catcher. Its just my opinion.

 

Clement could be that guy... A .215 hitter who can park it. At the same time Clement can be catching insurance for the injury to Mauer while Doumit is DH'ing and vice versa.

 

As for... Is Clement a catcher anymore... I don't know... The Pirates had moved him to 1B but he was a catcher for Seattle for 5 years and a Catcher at USC before that. He has more experience at Catcher than anywhere else. He can certainly strap on the tools of ignorance and finish up a game if an injury or ejection happens to Mauer or Doumit. That's all I'm asking for... Can someone just strap the pads on and finish a game so we don't need to carry a third catcher.

 

Seth said that Butera is not a third catcher.... He is the backup... In concept that may be accurate... However... In 2012... Mauer caught 74 games... Doumit caught 59 games and Butera caught 41 games. None of the 3 catchers were call ups to fill in for an injured catcher in 2012. That makes Butera the third catcher... I really can't see it another way and the Twins are the only team that does it.

 

I hope everyone understands that i'm not downplaying the importance of defense at the Catcher position... I think it's extremely important... I believe that Catchers on average are not very good hitters kinda proves that most clubs value defense at catcher over offense. That's why everyone has weaker hitting backup catchers in my opinion. In the end... Most clubs don't carry 3 catchers because it just weakens the offensive options off the bench cuz they are defensive specialists for the most part.

 

I just believe that the third catcher shouldn't play that much so his defensive value to a club is questionable. That third catcher position would serve the club better if he can provide something we are missing... Like power off the bench or at least the ability to play another position.

 

He just has to strap the pads on in an emergency. I'm also not here to praise Clement nor bury him... I just choose him over Butera and I'd take a Shoppach or a Fox over Clement.

[glunn]

You? Never.

 

How about - Drew Butera is an awful baseball player who's continued scholarship to the Twins 25 man roster is an embarrassment for the franchise and an insult to paying customers. Someone so terrible at his job, so woefully inept at a major portion of the game, so utterly useless at the plate

 

Nothing extreme about anything of that. Obviously every person involved with the Minnesota Twins organization should be embarrassed and humiliated to have a bad hitter on the roster as the third catcher.

 

You are fabricating opposing arguments and that's how it is. Nobody is saying that it's "wise" to have Butera on the roster, nobody's advocating it here except to say that he's preferrable to Herrmann who needs to be playing regularly in Triple-A. You're regurgitating the same old arguments that have been rehashed many times before, and for what purpose?

 

The presence of a third catcher itself is obnoxious but I’ve come to terms with it. It’s just something Gardy wants with two older, injury-prone players who often fill in at other positions atop the depth chart. I’d love it if people were attacking the idea of a third catcher more (like Chief's recent post) rather than misguidedly attacking Butera constantly. The idea that there’s some meaningful difference in what you’re going to get offensively from a .500 OPS guy and a .600 OPS guy over 150 plate appearances is silly. Neither is giving you any offense, and as far as the Twins are concerned that’s fine. Perfectly fair to call that out as an issue. Lame to continually talk about how horrible Butera is at his job. He does the job just fine -- the problem is that the job exists.

 

I have received a complaint about this thread and am respectfully asking Leviathan and Nick to be a bit more respectful of each other's positions. You are both making good points and the discussion is worthwhile, but it would be even better if you could tone this down a notch in terms of the personal jibes. Arguably, neither of you has crossed the line yet, but you have both come close, and I am merely asking that you keep your passion while toning down the rhetoric just a little bit. I have great respect for both of you and hope that you are not offended by my request.

[one_eyed_jack]

I understand and agree with the goal of maintaining a respectful tone and keeping the overall level of discourse out of the gutter it's fallen into at times, but let's not overcorrect here. If the stuff in this thread is close to crossing the line and arguably even over it, then I think the line is a bit closer to Romper Room than it needs to be.

[Shane Wahl]

You know this is a false dichotomy between Herrmann and Butera. There are likely several better catching options available than Butera.

[Craig Arko]

I understand and agree with the goal of maintaining a respectful tone and keeping the overall level of discourse out of the gutter it's fallen into at times, but let's not overcorrect here. If the stuff in this thread is close to crossing the line and arguably even over it, then I think the line is a bit closer to Romper Room than it needs to be.

 

I suspect it's because some of this stuff carries into thread after thread after... It gets on people's nerves after a while.

[Craig Arko]

You know this is a false dichotomy between Herrmann and Butera. There are likely several better catching options available than Butera.

 

I'm thinking Doumit, especially if Mauer catches a few more games this season.

 

My favorite hope for the bench is only carrying twelve pitchers, and call ups if a guy gets hurt, and not the eternal day to day status.

[Willihammer]

I suspect the whole premise for having Butera on the roster is to carry *only* 12 pitchers, given Butera's history of being able to get one or two starters on track and hold them there during the season. Pavano in 2010 and Liriano in 2012 being the best (only?) examples.

 

I would be surprised if they have Butera and 13 pitchers.

[glunn]

I understand and agree with the goal of maintaining a respectful tone and keeping the overall level of discourse out of the gutter it's fallen into at times, but let's not overcorrect here. If the stuff in this thread is close to crossing the line and arguably even over it, then I think the line is a bit closer to Romper Room than it needs to be.

 

Jack, you are an exemplary member, I value your opinion and agree that we don;t want this to be like Romper Room.

 

Please note that we are trying to maintain a balance here where we can foster passionate debate while minimizing personal attacks and feuding. My post was intended to be both proactive and gentle. As a moderator, I have been given powers to assess infractions, to delete posts and to ban people in order to maintain the balance, BUT I never want it to get to any of that. Leviathan and Nick are both great members and I think that we will all benefit if such great members thoughtfully consider the benefits from giving each other just a bit more respect.

[glunn]

I suspect it's because some of this stuff carries into thread after thread after... It gets on people's nerves after a while.

 

You are correct my friend.

[Physics Guy]

I suspect it's because some of this stuff carries into thread after thread after... It gets on people's nerves after a while.

 

Ya think? AAAA catcher thread redux...

[twinsnorth49]

Funny thing is you're both right. We don't need a 3rd catcher, but if we're forced to accept one, we could do a whole lot better than Butera.

 

I'm exhausted on this one, it's like punching yourself in the face.

[glunn]

Funny thing is your both right. We don't need a 3rd catcher, but if we're forced to accept one, we could do a whole lot better than Butera.

 

I'm exhausted on this one, it's like punching yourself in the face.

 

I think that you have done a great job summarizing this thread.