2021 Off-Season Thread

[ashbury]

Also, why did his parents spell Clint with a K? And what is his middle name. I really only want to know that answer if it begins with any of the other 25 letters of the alphabet.

I located that his brother Klein's middle name is Ashton.

https://riceowls.com/sports/football/roster/klein-kubiak/1192

 

Brother Klay's middle name may be Anthony, assuming there aren't many Klay Kubiaks out there.

https://www.mylife.com/klay-kubiak/e69435164147142

 

This site gives "A" as Klint's middle initial, as also with what appears to be a sister Kimberly.

https://www.whitepages.com/name/Gary-Kubiak

 

I'll trust the Rice U website - the other two are speculative but decent leads.

 

My invoice for PI services rendered will be in the mail shortly.

 

[nicksaviking]

Paul Guenther is now a Senior Defensive Assistant.

 

 

Zimmer sure does like to bring in the well-known veteran coaches to be his assistants. It probably does speak quite a bit to Zimmer's respect around the league.

 

I don't think it speaks much to the team's willingness to embrace of innovation and fresh perspectives though.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Paul Guenther is now a Senior Defensive Assistant.

 

 

Zimmer sure does like to bring in the well-known veteran coaches to be his assistants. It probably does speak quite a bit to Zimmer's respect around the league.

 

I don't think it speaks much to the team's willingness to embrace of innovation and fresh perspectives though.

 

Yeah, this doesn't move the needle for me at all.  This team's problem on defense is that for all his chops as a coordinator, it takes a long time for Zimmer to get polished products on his side of the field.

 

Kendricks and Smith are the only two I remember stepping in day one and doing well.  Everyone else takes 2-3 years to just be competent on the field.  Either they aren't picking the right people, or they're way too freaking slow as teachers.  If the guy fits your scheme, you shouldn't need to rework him from the ground up to be a solid player.  I understand good/great may take time, but we had 5-6 rookies last year who didn't even see the field it felt like.

[nicksaviking]

 

Yeah, this doesn't move the needle for me at all.  This team's problem on defense is that for all his chops as a coordinator, it takes a long time for Zimmer to get polished products on his side of the field.

 

Kendricks and Smith are the only two I remember stepping in day one and doing well.  Everyone else takes 2-3 years to just be competent on the field.  Either they aren't picking the right people, or they're way too freaking slow as teachers.  If the guy fits your scheme, you shouldn't need to rework him from the ground up to be a solid player.  I understand good/great may take time, but we had 5-6 rookies last year who didn't even see the field it felt like.

 

That plus the Vikings 29th ranked defense last year was still better than Guenther's 30th ranked Raiders defense.

[Mike Sixel]

 

That plus the Vikings 29th ranked defense last year was still better than Guenther's 30th ranked Raiders defense.

 

Ya, not a fan of this at all.....they really seem to be against anyone with a new idea. 

[nicksaviking]

 

Ya, not a fan of this at all.....they really seem to be against anyone with a new idea. 

 

I'm sure old dogs feel the time it will take to learn new tricks is longer than the time they have remaining.

 

Which, I mean, sure I get from Zimmer's perspective. If you're in danger of losing your job, you'd probably not try to save it by doing things you aren't familiar with and don't know how to operate.

 

But why doesn't Spielman just pull the plug now then? Unless Spielman thinks he is also a dog on a short leash.

[gunnarthor]

 

I agree that Cousins isn't the problem, but I don't think he's a Super Bowl winning QB unless he has an elite team around him. If I had to point to one specific thing that I think will prevent him from being that guy, it's that he's just not very good at managing a 2 minute offense. The best QBs in the league can march the team down the field 80 yards with less than a minute left, but Cousins would need a Hail Mary to do it. 

Ignoring everything else, this just didn't register as correct to me so here were the scoring drives he did with the ball and less than 2 minutes to go.

 

Wk 1 v. GB - 3 plays, 58 yards for a FG to finish the half. (He also led the team on 3 long scoring drives in 4th quarter but that's a different issue)

Wk 5 v. Seattle - 11 play, 57 yrd drive to get FG at the half

Wk 9 v. Det - 6 play, 87 yrd for a TD at the half

Wk 12 v. Carolina - 11 play(!), 41 yrd drive for FG at the half and a 7 play, 75 yrd TD winning drive at the end of the game

Wk 17 v. Det - 6 play, 79 yrd TD drive at the half

 

I really don't think he's the problem. He was awful the first few weeks but still finished a top 10 QB by pretty much every metric. I think people have a perception of him as a "loser" because he has mostly played on crappy teams, he has a bland personality, and he's not overly demonstrative. (Kinda like Mauer). But he's pretty good. The offense always seemed to step up when we ran no-huddle or were pass happy. It bogged down when we got overly run-happy.

 

I think the offense's problems are more on the coaching, rather than the players. This should be a pass-first, fast paced offense that buries teams with a strong running game after we run up the score. Instead, we looked happy to play ball-control, run out the clock football from the start of the game. 

[TheLeviathan]

I don't think the offense is a problem at all other than foolishly paying a boatload for a running back with injury problems and the lack of guards.

 

This team's problem is all the defensive investment isn't yielding a product that matches the investment.  

 

If I could wave a magic wand at the Vikings' thought process I'd change the following things:

 

1. Change your OL evaluation process so you are able to churn out a quality line.  The Packers continually have good linemen without investing major draft capital in it.  They are built with all-pros who are picked in all sorts of rounds: Bakhtiari is the best LT in football (4th round), Corey Linsley (5th round), Elgton Jenkins (2nd Round), and then they've had guys like Taylor, Sitton, etc. who they shuffle in and out as they get overpriced.  We need that kind of drafting and development up front.

 

2. Running backs are replaceable.  Never pay more than the league minimum for a back.  Every other year sink a 4th into a back, sign an UDFA, and roll with it.  Paying cook and spending a 2nd on Mattison is just poor use of resources.

 

3. Get ferocious up front.  You can mask poor CBs with a good front.  I'm done seeing lunchpail DL who "do their job" but can't push a pocket.  Teach someone who can blow **** up to do their job in the run game.  We spend so heavily on DBs and LBs when we need to blow up pockets to create turnovers, sacks, and disruption.  You need D-linemen to do that.  The backend will take care of itself.  You can find a Dantzler every year in the third round, but you can't always find Danielle Hunter.  I'm good with a guy like Pierce for protecting Kendricks, but on third down we need to unleash hell.

 

That's what is holding back our defense.  We prioritize coverage/scheming over just dominating up front.

[Danchat]

 

 

2. Running backs are replaceable.  Never pay more than the league minimum for a back.  Every other year sink a 4th into a back, sign an UDFA, and roll with it.  Paying cook and spending a 2nd on Mattison is just poor use of resources.

 

3. Get ferocious up front.  You can mask poor CBs with a good front.  I'm done seeing lunchpail DL who "do their job" but can't push a pocket.  Teach someone who can blow **** up to do their job in the run game.  We spend so heavily on DBs and LBs when we need to blow up pockets to create turnovers, sacks, and disruption.  You need D-linemen to do that.  The backend will take care of itself.  You can find a Dantzler every year in the third round, but you can't always find Danielle Hunter.  I'm good with a guy like Pierce for protecting Kendricks, but on third down we need to unleash hell.

 

That's what is holding back our defense.  We prioritize coverage/scheming over just dominating up front.

Mattison was the final pick in the 3rd round, taken after Spielman had traded down 4 times. I still don't like the pick since they don't use him and a guy like Boone is just as good, but Spielman at least didn't take him at the top of the 3rd. Perhaps you're having flashbacks of when the Vikings traded up in the 2nd round to get Toby Gerhart? (While AP was in the midst of his prime!)

 

The collapse of the DT spot started when Shamar Stephen was given a 3 year deal to play 3 technique despite having zero ability to rush the passer. And then they ignored the position again in 2020. They completely relied on the development of Jaleel Johnson, Jalyn Holmes, and lesser guys like Watts and Mata'afa and they fall flunked hard. I think the days of spending 3rd/4ths on D-linemen and letting DL coach Andre Patterson coach them up is over - they need to spend high draft picks on them.

 

As for the LBs, re-signing Barr was dumb, but they haven't spent a 1st-3rd on one since Kendricks in 2015 (and he's worth every penny of his extension). They've mostly added Day 3 picks to the LB corps (ironically our best 3rd LB by far was a UDFA).

[TheLeviathan]

 

Mattison was the final pick in the 3rd round, taken after Spielman had traded down 4 times. I still don't like the pick since they don't use him and a guy like Boone is just as good, but Spielman at least didn't take him at the top of the 3rd. Perhaps you're having flashbacks of when the Vikings traded up in the 2nd round to get Toby Gerhart? (While AP was in the midst of his prime!)

 

The collapse of the DT spot started when Shamar Stephen was given a 3 year deal to play 3 technique despite having zero ability to rush the passer. And then they ignored the position again in 2020. They completely relied on the development of Jaleel Johnson, Jalyn Holmes, and lesser guys like Watts and Mata'afa and they fall flunked hard. I think the days of spending 3rd/4ths on D-linemen and letting DL coach Andre Patterson coach them up is over - they need to spend high draft picks on them.

 

As for the LBs, re-signing Barr was dumb, but they haven't spent a 1st-3rd on one since Kendricks in 2015 (and he's worth every penny of his extension). They've mostly added Day 3 picks to the LB corps (ironically our best 3rd LB by far was a UDFA).

 

Mattison was redundant with Boone already here.  And while I can at least get behind that strategy, it becomes less viable when you then hand Cook a contract as well.  Now you invested a 3rd into a redundant backup.

 

Patterson still has some chops with DEs, but he hasn't done much with DTs.  The team needs to put a high pick into that position.  We're too soft up the middle.

 

And linebacker?  Well, investment isn't just draft capital, it's also finances.  Kendricks is a stud and I've loved that choice from day one.  I think it was here that I dismissed the "he's too small" talk a few times.  He's the modern Mike.  But Barr?  You don't take a guy that high and laud his athleticism and then neuter those same tools with your scheme.  Either don't take the guy or don't neuter him.  Worse yet, after the high draft choice, you bank up the Brinks truck and give him a contract you'd expect from a 10 sack a year guy.  But Barr does nothing to create turnovers or impact plays.

[gunnarthor]

Anyone like mock drafts not behind a paywall? CBS mock draft has us taking Azeez Ojulari LB from Georgia. Although maybe they think he's an edge rusher type? He's pretty young, which is good.

 

NFL.com has us picking a WR which isn't crazy if we didn't have a coach who wanted to be run heavy.

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Anyone like mock drafts not behind a paywall? CBS mock draft has us taking Azeez Ojulari LB from Georgia. Although maybe they think he's an edge rusher type? He's pretty young, which is good.

 

NFL.com has us picking a WR which isn't crazy if we didn't have a coach who wanted to be run heavy.

 

If they take a WR, they are insane. Randy Moss couldn't help this team win games, not with this OL and DL......

[Vanimal46]

My spidey senses right now tell me we’re going to move down from 14 to get a 2nd round pick again. If they stay put, it’s because a CB like Patrick Surtain or Caleb Farley falls to that slot. Or they love a DT and reach a bit.

 

I’ve seen Kwity Paye, EDGE from Michigan, mocked to the Vikings quite a bit at 14 on The Draft Network, Dan Jeremiah from NFL Network, PFF, etc. I don’t know if he’s the big playmaking edge player to go after compared to what we usually do... Which is finding mid round edge players and making them useful pieces. They’ve hit 1 HR with Hunter in R3, they’ve had several misses too, and for the most part they’ve found quality rotational pieces.

[nicksaviking]

I don't know what they should do. Spielman has been really good at finding edge rushers and skill position players in the mid rounds; if that's his strong suit I don't want to waste a 1st rounder on someone he can get similarly in the 3rd.

 

But then again, I'd probably vomit if they use a 1st rounder on another DB. If you need to use one of your first two picks on a DB every other year, you are not managing your roster well at all.

 

And he doesn't know an offensive lineman from a Wichita lineman so I'd be uncomfortable with him even making a stab at one early.

[gunnarthor]

I want a massive run-stuffing DL. Not sure there are any in this draft but watching teams run the ball down our throat last year was not fun. I miss the days of the "Williams Wall." That was fun.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I want a massive run-stuffing DL. Not sure there are any in this draft but watching teams run the ball down our throat last year was not fun. I miss the days of the "Williams Wall." That was fun.

 

Good news!  Pierce may well be that guy, he just sat out last year.  But I'm with you on the wall.....even if Pierce is really good he needs a buddy chewing up blocks and destroying pockets with him.

[Mike Sixel]

Good news! Pierce may well be that guy, he just sat out last year. But I'm with you on the wall.....even if Pierce is really good he needs a buddy chewing up blocks and destroying pockets with him.

How old is Pierce?

[Danchat]

 

How old is Pierce?

He will be 29 this year, but he's only played 4 seasons, so he doesn't have a lot of mileage under his belt. 

[Danchat]

 

I want a massive run-stuffing DL. Not sure there are any in this draft but watching teams run the ball down our throat last year was not fun. I miss the days of the "Williams Wall." That was fun.

We're paying Pierce to be that guy, and they desperately need an interior pass rusher. You can find run-stuffing DTs for cheap in free agency / round 4-5 in the draft. 

[gunnarthor]

 

We're paying Pierce to be that guy, and they desperately need an interior pass rusher. You can find run-stuffing DTs for cheap in free agency / round 4-5 in the draft. 

Good point. For some reason, I thought Pierce was signed on a one year deal and was a FA again.

[Mike Sixel]

He will be 29 this year, but he's only played 4 seasons, so he doesn't have a lot of mileage under his belt.

Thanks, I thought he was older....

[Vanimal46]

 

A broken Carson Wentz is worth a 2022 1st round pick. Come on Vikings, trade Kirk while the iron is hot.

[Mike Sixel]

 

A broken Carson Wentz is worth a 2022 1st round pick. Come on Vikings, trade Kirk while the iron is hot.

 

Great line on Twitter today, that the plane carrying him to Indy was intercepted, and they can't find him....

 

Unreal they got this much. Unreal.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Great line on Twitter today, that the plane carrying him to Indy was intercepted, and they can't find him....

 

Unreal they got this much. Unreal.

 

I have to imagine one of the reasons they got as much as they did is that the picks are pushed back two years.  If the Vikings were even shopping Cousins I can't imagine they take future picks to move him.

 

The price tag is a little more than Washington paid for Alex Smith, so I think it's roughly market value.

[Vanimal46]

I have to imagine one of the reasons they got as much as they did is that the picks are pushed back two years. If the Vikings were even shopping Cousins I can't imagine they take future picks to move him.

 

The price tag is a little more than Washington paid for Alex Smith, so I think it's roughly market value.

Why are you still living in 2020 Levi?

[TheLeviathan]

 

Why are you still living in 2020 Levi?

 

Ha!  Honestly I could see a plausible scenario for how this blows up in each team's face.

 

Colts have a great team, if he can be a really good QB they are a Super Bowl contender.  He could also be complete toast making a ton.

 

I love Hurts....made that love well known.  Two more picks and tons of cap space to build.   But if he busts and Wentz returns to form?  They goofed badly. 

[Danchat]

 

Ha!  Honestly I could see a plausible scenario for how this blows up in each team's face.

 

Colts have a great team, if he can be a really good QB they are a Super Bowl contender.  He could also be complete toast making a ton.

 

I love Hurts....made that love well known.  Two more picks and tons of cap space to build.   But if he busts and Wentz returns to form?  They goofed badly. 

I like the Eagles' side of the trade more as they will have a super cheap QB contract in 2021-23 and will no longer pay a middling QB $30M+ a year. If Hurts develops like I think he will, I think the trade will pan out. Indy is a competent organization, so they might just fix Wentz, but he was so bad last year... he's got to improve in leaps and bounds. That is if he can stay healthy.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I like the Eagles' side of the trade more as they will have a super cheap QB contract in 2021-23 and will no longer pay a middling QB $30M+ a year. If Hurts develops like I think he will, I think the trade will pan out. Indy is a competent organization, so they might just fix Wentz, but he was so bad last year... he's got to improve in leaps and bounds. That is if he can stay healthy.

 

I lean that way too, I just don't think it's crazy lopsided either.  You can't win in the NFL without a QB anymore, Indy got the guy with the most upside on the market.  It's hard to complain about the price in that case.

[Vanimal46]

I don’t see much upside in Wentz anymore. I can envision a scenario where Wentz clearly doesn’t have it, and the Colts are still in the playoff race. Just like last year with a cooked to a crisp Phil Rivers.

[nicksaviking]

The Eagles just seem like a completely dysfunctional organization at the moment. I mean obviously this was the right move, but geez, at the same time it just feels like they are incapable of making the right move and haven't made a single right move in a long time. If that was the Vikings I'd lose my mind that the GM wasn't the first one to go let alone the last one standing.

 

With that on the table, it just seems like the Colts are destined to get the right end of this deal no matter how it looks now.