2021 Off-Season Thread

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 4/24/2021 at 12:00 AM, TheLeviathan said:

31, 94, 136 and a fifth for 58 and Orlando Brown is a steal for KC. No reason the Vikes couldnt have made this work as a deal trading down from 14 to 27.

Woof.

 

KC>>>>>>>>>>>>>MN FO.

 

Also, that is a lot to give up.....IMO. But, ya, you'd think they could have done something with this and gotten better.......

[TheLeviathan]

I dont think moving down 30 spots and some mid-round picks is a high price at all for a ggood tackle in his prime.

[gunnarthor]

 

  On 4/24/2021 at 3:26 AM, TheLeviathan said:

I dont think moving down 30 spots and some mid-round picks is a high price at all for a ggood tackle in his prime.

Isn't a FA at the end of the season?

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 4/24/2021 at 5:06 AM, gunnarthor said:

Isn't a FA at the end of the season?

 

Yes, but what he wants is a chance to play LT and an extension.  I think both of those would have been doable.

[Danchat]

 

  On 4/24/2021 at 12:00 AM, TheLeviathan said:

31, 94, 136 and a fifth for 58 and Orlando Brown is a steal for KC. No reason the Vikes couldnt have made this work as a deal trading down from 14 to 27.

Woof.

Eh... he doesn't fit the Vikings' zone blocking scheme at all and the Chiefs will need to pay him like a left tackle to keep him past 2021. All for a guy who's started something like 11 games at LT... I'll pass.

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 4/24/2021 at 3:41 PM, Danchat said:

Eh... he doesn't fit the Vikings' zone blocking scheme at all and the Chiefs will need to pay him like a left tackle to keep him past 2021. All for a guy who's started something like 11 games at LT... I'll pass.

 

All true and fair, he also was a ridiculously good pass blocker last year and the Vikings were kicking the tires.  Which implies they do think he could play in their scheme.

[Vanimal46]

The draft capital was cheap to acquire Brown, but KC’s gonna have to pony up $25+ million next year to keep him. Very few teams are stacked like the Ravens who will replace an All-Pro with Ronnie Stanley, another All-Pro coming off injury.

 

The fact that MN didn’t pursue this much at all makes me think we’re locked in to take an OL at 14.

[TheLeviathan]

If the guy is an elite tackle....why do we care how much we have to pay him?

[nicksaviking]

  On 4/25/2021 at 5:24 PM, TheLeviathan said:

If the guy is an elite tackle....why do we care how much we have to pay him?

Because he’s a free agent next year and the Vikings should be rebuilding this year. Go after him next year if he’s worth it.

 

Frankly, with the “all in” decisions the team has made with the Zimmer, Cousins, Theilan, Cook and Barr (2020 decision), I’m surprised they didn’t make this deal and completely sacrifice the opportunity to get this thing back on the rails in the next few years.

[Danchat]

 

  On 4/25/2021 at 7:22 PM, nicksaviking said:

Because he’s a free agent next year and the Vikings should be rebuilding this year. Go after him next year if he’s worth it.

Frankly, with the “all in” decisions the team has made with the Zimmer, Cousins, Theilan, Cook and Barr (2020 decision), I’m surprised they didn’t make this deal and completely sacrifice the opportunity to get this thing back on the rails in the next few years.

They're committed to not spending any money on the O-line - they had the cheapest OL in the NFL last year and are virtually locked in to be the cheapest again. O'Neill will probably get extended, but that's about it.

 

KC will likely franchise tag him if they can't get a deal done, so he won't be hitting the market in 2022.

[TheLeviathan]

  On 4/25/2021 at 7:22 PM, nicksaviking said:

Because he’s a free agent next year and the Vikings should be rebuilding this year. Go after him next year if he’s worth it.

Frankly, with the “all in” decisions the team has made with the Zimmer, Cousins, Theilan, Cook and Barr (2020 decision), I’m surprised they didn’t make this deal and completely sacrifice the opportunity to get this thing back on the rails in the next few years.

I would be quite happy to start a rebuild with a high end, 24 year old tackle and still pick in the first round.

[nicksaviking]

 

  On 4/25/2021 at 10:52 PM, TheLeviathan said:

I would be quite happy to start a rebuild with a high end, 24 year old tackle and still pick in the first round.

 

You have him for one year. How is that a rebuild?

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 4/26/2021 at 2:40 PM, nicksaviking said:

You have him for one year. How is that a rebuild?

 

Did I miss a ban on resigning players?  He would get a large extension to play LT for us.  I'm perfectly fine paying an all-pro level tackle, at 24 years old, a fat extension to be on our team for quite some time.

 

I can't think of anytime that would be a bad thing for a franchise to do.

[Vanimal46]

Thursday is the big day! The draft IMO is the best reality TV we have in America. Lots of steam about teams calling Detroit and Carolina to move up in the draft. Including our Vikings. I think if Sewell isn’t selected by the Bengals, the Vikings should move up to #7 or #8 and get him.

 

If we stick at 14 I still like the same names... If one of Darrisaw, Slater, Vera-Tucker, or Jaycee Horn is there I’m happy.

[nicksaviking]

 

  On 4/26/2021 at 3:10 PM, TheLeviathan said:

Did I miss a ban on resigning players?  He would get a large extension to play LT for us.  I'm perfectly fine paying an all-pro level tackle, at 24 years old, a fat extension to be on our team for quite some time.

 

I can't think of anytime that would be a bad thing for a franchise to do.

 

An extension isn't a given. He wanted out of Baltimore so he could get paid, there's no reason to think another team couldn't offer him a better deal than the Vikings who continually put themselves in terrible financial situations. And if the Vikings end up cleaning house next year, why would any would-be free agent want to stick around to help clean up the mess left behind?

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 4/26/2021 at 5:19 PM, nicksaviking said:

An extension isn't a given. He wanted out of Baltimore so he could get paid, there's no reason to think another team couldn't offer him a better deal than the Vikings who continually put themselves in terrible financial situations. And if the Vikings end up cleaning house next year, why would any would-be free agent want to stick around to help clean up the mess left behind?

 

That's not entirely true.  He wanted out of Baltimore because he wanted to play LT, not RT.  So if we play him at LT and pay him like an all-pro LT....there's no reason not to expect him to resign.  But you can have that conversation with his agent prior to the trade too.

 

I'll just repeat, especially given we all seem to think offensive line has been a persistent issue: moving down 13 spots and giving up some mid-round picks plus a hefty extension should scare away no one if we're talking about a 24 year old, all-pro level left tackle.  I don't care what stage of the process we're in.  Hell, most rebuilding teams start with a QB and a LT. 

 

I don't understand why anyone would prefer to pay MORE in draft capital to get an unproven lineman for this team.

[Mike Sixel]

I am looking forward to this for some unspeakable reason. Like, I have no idea why.....

[nicksaviking]

 

  On 4/26/2021 at 7:09 PM, Mike Sixel said:

I am looking forward to this for some unspeakable reason. Like, I have no idea why.....

 

Yeah, as much as I'd like a trade up for a QB I know it's not happening. I don't trust this front office to pick OL and an edge rusher is only moderately exciting.

 

But yeah, me too. I'm way more invested than I was last year.

[DocBauer]

IMO, the Vikings knew/know last year and now they are in a re-tool mode with enough talent to still compete. Because of that, even with the salary cap potentially jumping as high as $200M-ish in 2022, the team didn't want to give up too much $ and too many draft choices for 1 player, even a good one, with holes to fill and a need for additional depth and future starters at different areas. In other words, they may need to re-work Hunter, Smith isn't getting younger, Barr may be gone, Peterson and Alexander are signed to 1yr deals, etc.

 

Now, we can debate all day long which is the right path to take, but I think that's the reasoning for not making the trade.

 

In regard to the draft itself, I still maintain how they view Cleveland has a lot to do with the 1st round. There is a very, very good reason to draft a DE at 1, and there are 5 guys who could project in the 1st round. However, you have one of the best DL coaches around and a number of long, talented, athletic edge guys available later that could be excellent players very soon. And IF the Vikings LIKE Cleveland at LT...the position he was drafted for...there is a LOT of G depth to draft after the 1st round.

 

My HOPE is that the draft will unfold in such a way that the Vikings can trade down a few spots and gain a 2nd rounder...maybe with a later round 2021/2022 pick to sweeten the deal, or maybe even another 3rd rounder without a sweetener. Rumors are the Vikings want to trade down. I think these are factual rumors if the 1st round plays out right.

 

Assuming a trade down happens, the Vikings can go the DE route...you know the names... and pick up a couple really nice G options the next couple of rounds. Assuming they are smart enough to grab a couple good guys that fit their system. And this means they believe in Cleveland at LT.

 

Based on virtually every mock draft and prospect rankings, the Vikings can still grab a top OT even if they trade down a few spots. Leatherwood, from Alabama, is an All American and Lombardi winner who came in to the season as one of the top 2 OL in the entire draft. Suddenly he's a forgotten man, which is crazy to me. I'd even be happy if we stayed at 14 and picked him.

 

Trade down if you can, IMO. This draft is very deep at many positions. Grab the very best OL or DE you can at #1, and then draft best player available by team need from that point on.

 

1st round pick STILL comes down, IMO, to how and where they see Cleveland.

[Vanimal46]

I really don’t think Spielman and Zimmer can afford to get cute. Both should be on the hot seat and lose their jobs if they miss the playoffs again.

 

I read an article I think on PFF? I can’t find the link but the premise of the story is usually there are 1,200 players eligible to draft and sign as UDFA. This year the draft only has a little over 600. The NCAA created a rule for seniors to come back so there will be a class of super seniors hoping to play a normal college season. Next year there will be 1,800 or so eligible players to be drafted. I know Spielman is obsessed with having 10 or more picks every year but this should be the year to opt out for 2022 darts.

[nicksaviking]

 

  On 4/27/2021 at 2:51 AM, Vanimal46 said:

I really don’t think Spielman and Zimmer can afford to get cute. Both should be on the hot seat and lose their jobs if they miss the playoffs again.

I read an article I think on PFF? I can’t find the link but the premise of the story is usually there are 1,200 players eligible to draft and sign as UDFA. This year the draft only has a little over 600. The NCAA created a rule for seniors to come back so there will be a class of super seniors hoping to play a normal college season. Next year there will be 1,800 or so eligible players to be drafted. I know Spielman is obsessed with having 10 or more picks every year but this should be the year to opt out for 2022 darts.

 

Yeah agree. The hot seat part sucks because I don't want them to only think about this year, I want them to make moves for the long term.

 

But honestly, I don't like that Spielman is obsessed with hoarding darts, I'm only interested in where they land. I could care less about Spielman's annual stockpile of 6th and 7th rounders; the odds are that if he didn't draft those guys, they'd be available as UDFA's anyway. I'd rather have 6-7 picks in the first five rounds and none in the last two than 4 picks in the first five rounds and 6 in the last two.

[TheLeviathan]

The draft pool being shallow makes me think he'll be even more likely to hoard this year.  He's said he likes having the 7th rounders as a way of getting an early start on UDFA.

 

I continue to believe our best bet is that the QB frenzy pushes down one of the WR and we leverage that into a trade down.

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 4/27/2021 at 2:55 PM, TheLeviathan said:

The draft pool being shallow makes me think he'll be even more likely to hoard this year.  He's said he likes having the 7th rounders as a way of getting an early start on UDFA.

 

I continue to believe our best bet is that the QB frenzy pushes down one of the WR and we leverage that into a trade down.

 

Mind. Boggling. Those players have almost zero chance of being NFL players. Go get early picks. Sigh.

[nicksaviking]

 

  On 4/27/2021 at 2:55 PM, TheLeviathan said:

The draft pool being shallow makes me think he'll be even more likely to hoard this year.  He's said he likes having the 7th rounders as a way of getting an early start on UDFA.

 

 

Well if he traded up and out of the last two rounds all together then he'd get about a four hour head start on calling those UDFAs. He has about 4-6 6th and 7th rounders each year. Just like every other team, his track record with them is poor. About every other year he finds one player who can contribute for a couple of years, but never anyone who is a difference maker. It's not a difficult research project to see how poorly these picks turn out, this should be glaringly obvious to any GM.

 

The Vikings biggest late round highlight under Spielman was Brandon Fusco and that was ten years ago. Maybe he's still chasing that high. Or maybe just like the fans watching the draft and just like the fans playing fantasy football, drafting is fun and it's more fun when you get to make more picks. It should go without saying that having fun shouldn't be his priority though.

[Vanimal46]

This wasn’t the exact link I was thinking of, but this one also has the numbers showing just how shallow 2021 draft is compared to every recent draft we’ve had.

 

https://www.turfshowtimes.com/2021/4/26/22403812/2021-nfl-draft-shallow-pool-rams

 

Every draft prior to this, if a team wanted to trade back into the sixth round this year, they’d have to give up a fifth next year. The general rule has always been that if you want a draft pick now, you have to give up a better draft pick later. But given that this pool is one-third its usual size — and that next year’s draft class pool will be over-loaded with prospects — the 2022 NFL Draft is expected to be remarkably more valuable than this one.

[Vanimal46]

With that being said, be aggressive early. Get your guys and shoot for quality, not quantity. Trade the multiple 4th round picks to get back in the 2nd round. Trade the surplus picks at the end of the draft for 2022 darts. Because next year’s 5th round draft pick could be a 3rd rounder in normal drafts.

[Mike Sixel]

We all know he won't do that. It's not in his nature. Alas.

[nicksaviking]

I really don't like San Francisco, Atlanta and Carolina drafting where they are. They all seem to have enough offensive talent and young and innovative coaches and front offices that if one or two of them hit on a stud young QB, they might be in for a long run of sustained success in the NFC.

 

I'd throw Detroit into the mix but Detroit hasn't shown to be capable to doing anything right.

[Mike Sixel]

  On 4/27/2021 at 4:40 PM, nicksaviking said:

I really don't like San Francisco, Atlanta and Carolina drafting where they are. They all seem to have enough offensive talent and young and innovative coaches and front offices that if one or two of them hit on a stud young QB, they might be in for a long run of sustained success in the NFC.

 

I'd throw Detroit into the mix but Detroit hasn't shown to be capable to doing anything right.

Concur.

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 4/27/2021 at 3:29 PM, nicksaviking said:

Well if he traded up and out of the last two rounds all together then he'd get about a four hour head start on calling those UDFAs. He has about 4-6 6th and 7th rounders each year. Just like every other team, his track record with them is poor. About every other year he finds one player who can contribute for a couple of years, but never anyone who is a difference maker. It's not a difficult research project to see how poorly these picks turn out, this should be glaringly obvious to any GM.

 

The Vikings biggest late round highlight under Spielman was Brandon Fusco and that was ten years ago. Maybe he's still chasing that high. Or maybe just like the fans watching the draft and just like the fans playing fantasy football, drafting is fun and it's more fun when you get to make more picks. It should go without saying that having fun shouldn't be his priority though.

 

I wasn't advocating he was right, simply restating his stance.  That said, he's hit a few times in the late rounds:

 

Diggs, Weatherly, Stephen, John Sullivan.  But not nearly enough to justify his obsession with it.