2021 Off-Season Thread

[Danchat]

As of right now, here are the favorites to be taken at #14:

 

T/G Alijah Vera-Tucker

T Christian Darrisaw

DE Kwity Paye

DE Jaelen Phillips

 

Guys who could be options if they slide down:
 

T/G Rashawn Slater

LB Micah Parsons

WR DeVonta Smith

WR Jaylen Waddle

 

I'm conflicted over what position to prioritize... OL and DE are the clear needs and there are guys worth the 14th pick available. But will they go BPA and possibly leave a gaping hole open? Can we trust them to find a starting lineman in the 2nd/3rd round?

 

I'm tempted to say they should go for a LT at #14, but the best long-term move for the O-line is probably to fire Dennison and reboot the philosophy on that position. But then Kirk probably gets killed in 2021... but that may be inevitable. 

[DocBauer]

  On 4/12/2021 at 5:50 PM, TheLeviathan said:

I think there is a good chance several of the elite OTs, WRs, and CBs is sitting there at 14.  If so, it puts us in a really good spot to trade back and pick up a 2nd round pick.  

 

There are some nice tackles and guards to pick from in the 2nd and 3rd round.  I'm growing more and more partial to taking a pass rusher and spending the next two picks on OL.  (Someone like Eichenberg, Walker Little, Jackson Carman, Brady Christensen, James Hudson - they all fit our scheme and are good talents)

This! Totally on board with a trade down if the 1st round plays out as it SEEMS likely to do at this point.

 

I don't like the idea of passing on a great player at 14, but overall, this draft appears to be as deep as last year despite fluctuations by position. It may be in the Vikes best interest to trade down, if possible, to garner an additional selection. My question woukd be, would you still trade down X number of spots if you could only get a 3rd third round pick? I'd still be tempted as I think their greatest priorities...interior OL, S, and some talented WR and DT for the staff to develop...could bring in a nice harvest in the 3rd and 4th rounds.

 

Mock drafts and draft analysis would say there are about 4 1st round DE talents that should be available from 14-24 with talent and projection. There are also some very interesting options in the 3-4 round areas that could play with development time under Patterson. Seems to be a very good S class and WR depth seems every bit as good as 2020. DT depth is shallow on top, but has mid round fliers that could develop.

 

Meaning what? Trade down if you can, grab the best DE you can, grab TWO G ASAP, and snag a S and WR. Period. That's 5 of 8 picks in the first 4 rounds you have. Don't get cute and start trading up for someone unless you are 100% convinced you get a difference maker! Use those remaining 3 picks to address athletic projects/possibilities at CB, QB and LB. If you just feel you HAVE to have more picks because you believe the draft is deep enough you can do more, then use your 2 5th round and 6th round pick to do so. But bring in a RB, WR who can contribute on ST as well as on offense, potentially. Maybe a TE to compete with Dillon at TE. Another S to develop wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

Trade down for a 2nd round pick if you can. Settle for yet another 3rd round pick if you don't have to drop TOO FAR. There is still real potential value there. And just don't get cute and reach. Draft for need where you need it. Because it sure seems that where we need it most is deep in this draft.

[DocBauer]

I deliberately "touched" on the OL last post about the draft to address it more directly here.

 

There is a black hole problem here that goes way beyond Spielman's selections. Indeed, it may be a problem that is beyond Spielman's responsibility, even though he is supposed to be "the man in charge". But even a GM can't always wear the crown of responsibility if those in charge under him drop the ball.

 

It's been pointed out recently on another Vikings site tbat NOBODY has drafted an OL in the first 2 rounds in the past 3yrs except the Vikings; O'Neil, Bradburry and Cleveland. So it's not as if Spielman has just ignored the OL. Samia, to best of my knowledge, was 1st team BIG12, and I want to say 2nd or 3rd team All America. Udo was a tall, long, athletic, powerful but rough small school OT that looked so good his rookie season the Vikings didn't dare expose him to waivers to keep him on a practice squad they kept him on the standard roster. He played a good game as a starter in the final, meaningless, game in 2019. There was NO rookie camp or OTA or pre-season in 2020. So to say Udo got screwed for developmental time in 2020 would be an understatement. (We can argue this with Samia if you want to).

 

One GLARING question about 2020 I would like someone to answer. Desperate for quality guard play, Cleveland...an athletic left side player his whole college career...was out at RG with Dozier at LG? Experience? Experience at what? Letting rushers overwhelm him? I would have put Cleveland on the left side and put the more more limited Dozier on the right side.

 

Personally, I believe the late 2020 choices of Brandel and especially Hinton were very smart. With a year or two of development, each could be a solid player. Especially Hinton. His top 4 testing numbers at the K-State pro day would have put him in the top 5-10% of ALL OL had he been invited to Inianappolis for the combine.

 

There is a MAJOR problem here in regard to development and philosophy! Is it Zimmer? Is it extenuating circumstance? I'm not sure. But somebody better figure it out really quick. Let's examine the past few seasons from an offensive standpoint:

 

1] Norv Turner had a great career and did great work with the Vikings and decided he was done.

 

Since then, the Vikings offense has been run by Shurmer, DeFiippo, Stafanski and Kubiak and memory forgive me, I swear there was someone else temporary. And amidst all of that turnover, there was the addition of Sparano and his sudden, tragic death, followed by fill-ins until Dennison took over. Four straight years of death, promotion and at least 1 dismissal of OF co-ordinator and OL coach.

 

Zimmer is a defense coach who has largely done a great job doing so. He's, for the most part, placed the offense in the hands of someone else. He trusted Norm and believed in him. I think he's been scrambling a bit since then because two of his co-ordinators got head coaching jobs.

 

You can draft all the OL you want to. But you still have to have a system in place, with coaches you trust, to implement tbat system. I remain exited and equally dubious that the younger Kubiak has learned from his father and will also be aggressive and progressive in how to run a modern offense and attack while also being fundamentally sound with a quality ground game.

 

More to the point; does Clint have enough balls to tell Dennison he's wrong or replace him? Despite Dozier..,who MIGHT have value as a reserve...whats on hand and a couple smart draft choices could take this OL from mediocre to at least pretty good with potential. But what Zimmer wants, and has always wanted, was for an OC to take charge.

[nicksaviking]

Well they only switched to Kubiak and Dennison's zone blocking scheme because they couldn't acquire or identify actual usable NFL linemen. I'm more than happy to criticize Zimmer, but everyone knows his skillset is on the other side of the ball; this is 100% on Spielman. If Spielman wants to put the OL responsibility on the HC, then it's Spielman's fault for not getting a HC who knows a thing or two about creating an OL with the required balance of size, strength and speed to play in today's game.

 

This zone blocking stuff should have been a band-aid approach with plans to get someone in ASAP who could help craft an OL made of actual NFL quality players, but just like with the salary situation, they refuse to do things the smart and most effective way because it means taking a temporary step backwards. Because God forbid they got 5-11 instead of 7-9.

[TheLeviathan]

I wouldn't view zone blocking schemes as a bandaid.  Several of the best offensive minds in the game (Shanahan in SF most notably) employ the system because of how effective it is at moving the attack and creating opportunities for play action.

 

I don't know who is to blame for why the team can't identify linemen, but it's a problem.  That's why I pushed back on the idea that the Vikings haven't drafted guys that have started for them - they have (Elflein and Samia to name the two most recent) - the problem is they aren't very good.  But neither are their high picks like Bradbury.  

 

The team is struggling to coach and develop or identify guys who they can coach and develop.  I don't know the diagnosis, but the team's with the best OLs in the league aren't burying every first round pick into their line.  They're the Packers who take guys in rounds 2-7 and keep manufacturing bad asses.  Philly did the same on their run.  Dallas tried and most of those guys are washed up or gone.  New Orleans has done well, but they also have developed a lot of 2/3 round guys to where they are.  That's the path to a better OL - better identification and development for their scheme.  But, make no mistake, good OL play is in a drought that is seriously harming the product on the field right now.  Virtually every team in the league, including pretty much all of last year's playoff field, have OL as a need.

 

Personally, I trade back, grab the best pass rusher, and then bury my next two picks in the best guys on the OL I can find.  There will be good talents that are long term starters in the NFL in this draft taken later.  

[gunnarthor]

 

  On 4/15/2021 at 2:32 PM, TheLeviathan said:

  They're the Packers who take guys in rounds 2-7 and keep manufacturing bad asses.   

I'm ignoring everything else but this - the Packers have a league-approved holding style that other teams cannot replicate. I suspect that style ends when Rogers retires. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 4/15/2021 at 4:13 PM, gunnarthor said:

I'm ignoring everything else but this - the Packers have a league-approved holding style that other teams cannot replicate. I suspect that style ends when Rogers retires. 

 

Maybe they're really good at coaching it as a subtle trick,

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 4/15/2021 at 2:32 PM, TheLeviathan said:

I wouldn't view zone blocking schemes as a bandaid.  Several of the best offensive minds in the game (Shanahan in SF most notably) employ the system because of how effective it is at moving the attack and creating opportunities for play action.

 

I don't know who is to blame for why the team can't identify linemen, but it's a problem.  That's why I pushed back on the idea that the Vikings haven't drafted guys that have started for them - they have (Elflein and Samia to name the two most recent) - the problem is they aren't very good.  But neither are their high picks like Bradbury.  

 

The team is struggling to coach and develop or identify guys who they can coach and develop.  I don't know the diagnosis, but the team's with the best OLs in the league aren't burying every first round pick into their line.  They're the Packers who take guys in rounds 2-7 and keep manufacturing bad asses.  Philly did the same on their run.  Dallas tried and most of those guys are washed up or gone.  New Orleans has done well, but they also have developed a lot of 2/3 round guys to where they are.  That's the path to a better OL - better identification and development for their scheme.  But, make no mistake, good OL play is in a drought that is seriously harming the product on the field right now.  Virtually every team in the league, including pretty much all of last year's playoff field, have OL as a need.

 

Personally, I trade back, grab the best pass rusher, and then bury my next two picks in the best guys on the OL I can find.  There will be good talents that are long term starters in the NFL in this draft taken later.  

 

Do you really have confidence this staff can make even decent OL starters past round 2? I don't. But, they can make good starting DL, LB, WR, S with those later picks.

 

Step 1 is firing the OL coach, he's not shown 1 ounce of ability to develop players. Step two is to hire a scout that can ID OL talent (not easy). 

[nicksaviking]

 

  On 4/15/2021 at 2:32 PM, TheLeviathan said:

The team is struggling to coach and develop or identify guys who they can coach and develop.  I don't know the diagnosis, but the team's with the best OLs in the league aren't burying every first round pick into their line.  They're the Packers who take guys in rounds 2-7 and keep manufacturing bad asses.  Philly did the same on their run.  Dallas tried and most of those guys are washed up or gone.  New Orleans has done well, but they also have developed a lot of 2/3 round guys to where they are.  

 

There was no franchise in the league better at this than our Vikings. Of all the things they did well, finding starting OL, heck Pro Bowl and HOF OL, in every corner of the draft and free agency was the thing that they were best at. And they did it well for FIFTY years until Spielman took over in 2012.

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 4/15/2021 at 4:48 PM, nicksaviking said:

There was no franchise in the league better at this than our Vikings. Of all the things they did well, finding starting OL, heck Pro Bowl and HOF OL, in every corner of the draft and free agency was the thing that they were best at. And they did it well for FIFTY years until Spielman took over in 2012.

 

While true, I would point out that the OL talent is not what it was even 10 years ago.  We've been on a steady decline for a long time.  

 

The 1998 Vikings today, would be unearthly good relative to the rest of the league.  This isn't an excuse, they have to be better, but part of the problem in identifying better talent is that the talent pool has been hot garbage for a long time now.  And it's true across the league.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 4/15/2021 at 4:30 PM, Mike Sixel said:

Do you really have confidence this staff can make even decent OL starters past round 2? I don't. But, they can make good starting DL, LB, WR, S with those later picks.

 

Step 1 is firing the OL coach, he's not shown 1 ounce of ability to develop players. Step two is to hire a scout that can ID OL talent (not easy). 

 

No, I don't have confidence, but I don't have confidence in them drafting OL in pretty much any round.  Nevertheless, they need to.  

 

I do agree they need to consider changes to those groups.  I'd suggest another possibility to look at is our strength and conditioning coach.  We do pretty well as zone blockers creating running creases.  What we suck at is holding up against a bull rush or moving a guy in a short area.

[TheLeviathan]

FWIW....NFL.com ranked Spielman the 6th best drafter in the NFL.

[Mike Sixel]

  On 4/16/2021 at 2:50 AM, TheLeviathan said:

FWIW....NFL.com ranked Spielman the 6th best drafter in the NFL.

They've not made the playoffs more than made it..... Wins and losses seem like a better judge of a GM....

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 4/16/2021 at 4:43 AM, Mike Sixel said:

They've not made the playoffs more than made it..... Wins and losses seem like a better judge of a GM....

 

Yeah, I won't attempt to defend that list, but it does speak to how frequently GMs across the league blunder badly.  Spielman has warts, but my god the bottom of that list....woof.

[Danchat]

For anyone who may be interested, here's my latest mock draft:

(trade-ups indicated by dark blue, trade-down indicated by dark green)

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 4/17/2021 at 1:07 AM, Danchat said:

For anyone who may be interested, here's my latest mock draft:

(trade-ups indicated by dark blue, trade-down indicated by dark green)

 

 

I'd be pretty happy to land Slater.

[Vanimal46]

  On 4/17/2021 at 1:07 AM, Danchat said:

For anyone who may be interested, here's my latest mock draft:

(trade-ups indicated by dark blue, trade-down indicated by dark green)

 

Personally I’ll be shocked if Slater fell out of the top 10. This would be an exciting scenario. Wherever he lands, he’ll be a day 1 starter.

 

I concur that Pitts will be the first playmaker off the board. The scarcity of impact players at TE makes him even more valuable.

 

Bateman to GB makes me sad... I wouldn’t be able to cheer for him!

[TheLeviathan]

 

PFF has a pretty good simulator.  I think this one is plausible in that one of the QBs slipped to 14 and Washington got aggressive to move up.  Vikings walk away with an edge rusher, two small school linemen, a QB project, and a bunch of nice development guys.  Plus two first round picks the following year is never a bad thing.

 

Christianson is a great fit for the OL as a development guy and Dalman could be as well if muscled up.  Johnson could start at safety right away.  Johnson is an excellent slot talent at WR.  I'm a big fan of Herbert as a legit starting running back and with Dalvin's injuries this is a nice place to have depth.

 

Mond isn't a guy I like as much as I was Hurts last year (I was basically running that guy's fan club) but he's an interesting player who I think is more than worth the flyer if we have some extra picks to work with.

[Danchat]

That would be a best case scenario there minus landing a stud OL. Draft position-wise the only guy I don't see being available is LB Jamin Davis, is he's getting buzz as a 1st rounder. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 4/17/2021 at 11:24 PM, Danchat said:

That would be a best case scenario there minus landing a stud OL. Draft position-wise the only guy I don't see being available is LB Jamin Davis, is he's getting buzz as a 1st rounder. 

 

The scouting services seem to be all over the map on him.  I doubt he's an option there either.  For me the big takeaway is that if one of the QBs slip, or the WRs, there is hay to be made in moving down.  A pick in the 50s can land you a starting OL in this draft.

[gunnarthor]

I don't know all the names on that draft but getting Paye, Rudunz, and Christensen while moving down, seems like a pretty good draft to me. I also think someone like Johnson might be a great fit for Zimmer.

[nicksaviking]

 

  On 4/16/2021 at 2:50 AM, TheLeviathan said:

FWIW....NFL.com ranked Spielman the 6th best drafter in the NFL.

 

I'm not surprised by this, the things he does well, he does really well. He has been excellent, if not the best GM at identifying skill position players. He's also been really good at spotting DBs, LBs and edge players. 

 

But the things he does poorly, he does really poorly. And unfortunately, QB and the OL might be more important than the other position groups all together.

[gunnarthor]

Not really Vikings news but Tomlin gets an extension. 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/31295464/pittsburgh-steelers-give-coach-mike-tomlin-3-year-contract-extension-2024

 

Wish we had kept him instead of Childress ...

 

Tomlin is one of only two coaches to start their career with 14 non-losing seasons. I have no idea who the other is.

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 4/20/2021 at 7:10 PM, gunnarthor said:

Not really Vikings news but Tomlin gets an extension. 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/31295464/pittsburgh-steelers-give-coach-mike-tomlin-3-year-contract-extension-2024

 

Wish we had kept him instead of Childress ...

 

Tomlin is one of only two coaches to start their career with 14 non-losing seasons. I have no idea who the other is.

 

That was an obviously bad decision the moment it was made, alas. I have some quibbles with the Steelers at times.....but he's probably a very good coach (or is it the QB, like in NE?).

[nicksaviking]

  On 4/20/2021 at 7:24 PM, Mike Sixel said:

That was an obviously bad decision the moment it was made, alas. I have some quibbles with the Steelers at times.....but he's probably a very good coach (or is it the QB, like in NE?).

It might have been the QB at one point, I don’t think it is any longer. I thought Roethlisberger was an obvious cut this off season, but I guess it’s hard to get rid of franchise icons.

[DocBauer]

Unfortunately, the elephant in the room is Cleveland and our lack of any opinion from the Vikings. Clearly, he was drafted as another O'Neil; a long and athletic tackle with experience and projection with the idea he would develop for a season or so before taking over LT from Reif. His move to G last year was basically desperation of need. I remain perplexed as to why he didn't play LG, his more natural side, and have the more experienced but limited Dozier play RG. But I am repeating myself and digressing.

 

If they like Cleveland, then isn't he first in line for LT? If so, the pieces begin to fall in place. Not only could the 1st pick be an edge rusher, but there is enough depth to trade out of 14, if possible, to pick up another pick and slide down a few spots and still get a quality edge player. Further, there are a lot of good looking guard options from the 2nd round on.

 

The counter would be that Patterson is a tremendous coach who takes length, athleticism and potential and turns out good and great players.

 

Whether we stay at 14 or trade down comes down, IMO, as to what they really think about Cleveland.

[lecroy24fan]

 

  On 4/20/2021 at 7:10 PM, gunnarthor said:

Not really Vikings news but Tomlin gets an extension. 

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/31295464/pittsburgh-steelers-give-coach-mike-tomlin-3-year-contract-extension-2024

 

Wish we had kept him instead of Childress ...

 

Tomlin is one of only two coaches to start their career with 14 non-losing seasons. I have no idea who the other is.

 

Marty Schottenheimer although the first season was only 8 games of it at 4-4.

[gunnarthor]

 

  On 4/22/2021 at 10:13 PM, lecroy24fan said:

Marty Schottenheimer although the first season was only 8 games of it at 4-4.

Marty. Man, he was a good coach and really snake bit in the playoffs.  A few playoff wins and he probably was a HOF coach. That said, I completely forgot about him and would never have guessed him.

[nicksaviking]

 

  On 4/23/2021 at 4:57 PM, gunnarthor said:

Marty. Man, he was a good coach and really snake bit in the playoffs.  A few playoff wins and he probably was a HOF coach. That said, I completely forgot about him and would never have guessed him.

 

Yeah, it seems crazy to think about now, but the Cleveland Browns were actually a consistently good team when I first started paying attention to the game.

 

That was the Bernie Kosar era, not the Jim Brown era by the way.

 

Marty should be in the HOF at some point. 200 wins and only two losing seasons?  

[TheLeviathan]

31, 94, 136 and a fifth for 58 and Orlando Brown is a steal for KC. No reason the Vikes couldnt have made this work as a deal trading down from 14 to 27.

 

Woof.