Twins drop Rochester as AAA affiliate, Pensacola also may be gone

[Nine of twelve]

This is a piece by LEN III lifted from the StarTribune web site.

 

 

https://m.startribune.com/twins-drop-rochester-as-aaa-affiliate-eye-st-paul-as-replacement/573034791/

[IndianaTwin]

If Pensacola ends up with Miami, has there been any speculation where the Twins would go? 

 

Bummer — I was looking forward to going to Pensacola. Still can, but the draw would be less. 

[h2oface]

Loyalty is a thing of the past. I like the Saints being an independent league team.

I vote Sioux Falls.

[Rosterman]

I'm not sure the status of Indy Ball going forward. Will have more oversite as MLB takes over some areas as tryout leagues, or extended leagues. Be interesting to see how this all plays out.

 

The rumble is that Ft. Myers will become Low-A ball, which works well with the training camp. Does that make Cedar Rapids High-A Ball.

 

Gotta see how all the different KEPT teams play out as they look at schedules, travel...and hopefully increased pay for most minor league players. 

 

I look at the Saints, though, and wonder where the players playing there will live. It's not like St. Paul is just a small town in itself, but a major metropolis. 

 

$20 million needs to be paid by someone!

[USAFChief]

Having the AAA team across the river in St Paul has always seemed like a no brainer.

 

Do it.

 

As for fewer minor league teams, this has been a trend for decades.

[rdehring]

Would be thrilled to have the Twins AAA team in St. Paul. Would certainly go to a few games every summer, assuming they have some day games.

 

Expect the Twins will have to contribute part of the entrance fee. Do they end up with a small part of the ownership? No question they would have a substantial travel savings not having players and others flying back and forth to Rochester.

[ashbury]

Having the AAA team across the river in St Paul has always seemed like a no brainer.

 

Do it.

It's a question of money. There is no AAA team in St Paul to switch to. Organized ball requires something like a $20M payment (going from memory, someone else can fact-check) for a franchise to be granted, and the ballpark also has to be upgraded to certain minimums such as seating capacity.

 

The Saints are playing a game of chicken, which they may well win, by wringing some concessions from the team to foot the bill at least partially for these things. If they overplay their hand, somewhere else might still wind up being the destination.

 

Geographically it may be a no-brainer, but some brains are still going to be needed to make it actually come about.

 

[Vanimal46]

Pretty sure Seth Stohs just put his house up for sale and looking for studio apartments in downtown St. Paul. 

[DocBauer]

No offense to Rochester, who by all accounts I've ever read have treated the Twins well and do a great job, it just never felt like a good fit. I mean, didn't they sell something like 2-1 Yankees merchandise vs Red Wings in the pro shop?

 

Sorry to see Pensacola go if true. Seems we just arrived and the park looks great.

 

Assuming St Paul takes over for one location, really interested who becomes the remaining affiliate. Any thoughts or rumors?

[nicksaviking]

 

Loyalty is a thing of the past. I like the Saints being an independent league team.

I vote Sioux Falls.

 

Sioux Falls barely draws 2K fans per game. I don't think they were ever really an option, I'd guess the rumors are just leverage to get the Saints on board.

[lecroy24fan]

 

 the ballpark also has to be upgraded to certain minimums such as seating capacity.

 

 

 

 

Lavelle's article says the seating minimum will be waived because the Saints are a top drawing team.

[Nine of twelve]

 

Lavelle's article says the seating minimum will be waived because the Saints are a top drawing team.

CHS Field was designed to accommodate expansion.

[Nine of twelve]

 

Loyalty is a thing of the past. I like the Saints being an independent league team.

I vote Sioux Falls.

Other than St. Paul, the only city in the 5-state area that could possibly support a AAA team is Des Moines and there is no chance that the Cubs are looking to end their 40-year relationship with that city. Some will claim that Madison could support a AAA team, but this is not a thing. Madison can't even support a Midwest League team. Moreover, if Madison were a viable location the Brewers would be all over it. Proposals for a AAA team anywhere else in the upper midwest are laughable.

[lecroy24fan]

 

CHS Field was designed to accommodate expansion.

Yes but nobody is going to pay for that right now.

[ToddlerHarmon]

 

Yes but nobody is going to pay for that right now.

 

Maybe this is the way out of both boxes. The Saints "give" MiLB $20M, and MiLB "invests" $20M in adding seating capacity to CHS

 

Seriously, I would love to follow Twins prospects from home, the Twins save on costs and improve their coaching access, and I think it gives the Saints long term security that the independent leagues can't provide. I gotta think it happens

 

[IndianaTwin]

If you're looking for nearby and are discounting Des Moines and Omaha because of their long histories with the Cubs and Royals, the best choice after St. Paul may actually be Grand Rapids, Mich. It's the 51st largest metro area in the country, with Lansing (103rd) and Kalamazoo (184th) and popular vacation spots nearby, and several 90-minute Delta flights to MSP per day.

 

It also would be more convenient to the IL, with teams in Indianapolis, Toledo, and Columbus. St. Paul isn't that great of a fit with AAA. Aside from Des Moines and Omaha, they're all long flights to the rest of the PCL or the IL. 

[rdehring]

 

Other than St. Paul, the only city in the 5-state area that could possibly support a AAA team is Des Moines and there is no chance that the Cubs are looking to end their 40-year relationship with that city. Some will claim that Madison could support a AAA team, but this is not a thing. Madison can't even support a Midwest League team. Moreover, if Madison were a viable location the Brewers would be all over it. Proposals for a AAA team anywhere else in the upper midwest are laughable.

As a former minority owner of the Madison Muskies, the A's affiliate back in the early 80's, I can assure you that a AAA team would be a non-starter in Mad City.

[Cap'n Piranha]

I don't think the Twins spend all that much on travel to Rochester; a quick google flights search shows first class tickets to Rochester are $500 to $600 a pop.  It's about half that for coach (which I'm sure players and lower level staff are getting).  That means even if the Twins have 300 round trips from MSP to ROC a year, it's only $150k to $180k a year if every single trip is first class.  For an organization with somewhere around $250M to $300M a year in revenue, that's not a significant amount (it's akin to a person making $60k a year saving $35 to $45 a year).

 

Do the Twins save money?  Sure.  But it's not like doing this allows them to start bidding for Gerrit Cole or anything.  The only real benefit is travel savings, and the ability to more closely monitor players; those actually might be significant advantages.

[nowheresville]

 

If Pensacola ends up with Miami, has there been any speculation where the Twins would go? 

 

To me, this is the interesting question that I haven't seen any sort of even rumors about.

 

AAA seems to be pretty much locked in - it will almost certainly be either St. Paul or Wichita. 

 

AA is the oddball, because it's not like there's really a way to improve the geography. Between the 3 leagues, Eastern, Southern, and Texas, even the closest teams to MN are only marginally closer than Pensacola and usually already have a "local" team, like the Cardinals in Springfield MO or Cleveland in Akron. 

 

There's likely to be some other changes coming - the whole reason Miami is thought to be moving into Pensacola is because their current AA team, jacksonville is rumored to be moving up to AAA. Chattanooga had also been on the contraction list, so presumably there will be another couple cities (probably from the Sally or Carolina Leagues) that will be promoted from A ball to AA but there's no obvious fit for the Twins

. 

[IndianaTwin]

 

To me, this is the interesting question that I haven't seen any sort of even rumors about.

 

AAA seems to be pretty much locked in - it will almost certainly be either St. Paul or Wichita. 

 

AA is the oddball, because it's not like there's really a way to improve the geography. Between the 3 leagues, Eastern, Southern, and Texas, even the closest teams to MN are only marginally closer than Pensacola and usually already have a "local" team, like the Cardinals in Springfield MO or Cleveland in Akron. 

 

There's likely to be some other changes coming - the whole reason Miami is thought to be moving into Pensacola is because their current AA team, jacksonville is rumored to be moving up to AAA. Chattanooga had also been on the contraction list, so presumably there will be another couple cities (probably from the Sally or Carolina Leagues) that will be promoted from A ball to AA but there's no obvious fit for the Twins

. 

 

It would be a slap in the face to Rochester, which has had AAA for such a long time, but if St. Paul is added as a AAA team, some other city has to lose a team. In addition to the continuity factor, Rochester as the AA team would be a fit geographically as an addition to the Eastern League if another team gets dropped. The Yankees have named that they are moving out of Trenton, for example. 

 

You're right, there's not a good fit geographically, however, given that AA is the Eastern, Southern, and Texas Leagues.

 

Then again, maybe names don't matter -- I'm looking at you, Memphis of the Pacific Coast League.

 

Has any site made a map or list of these rumors and what deals have been committed to for 2021? 

 

 

 

[4twinsJA]

I don't have any inside information, but could see at least AAA moving geographically closer to parent teams. Then playing games in 3 divisions/leagues-east, central, and west. Similar to what MLB did last year. Big changes coming to MiLB.

[nowheresville]

 

Then again, maybe names don't matter -- I'm looking at you, Memphis of the Pacific Coast League.

 

Has any site made a map or list of these rumors and what deals have been committed to for 2021? 

 

Names don't matter, but AAA is an airplane league, where AA is a bus league so geographic proximity matters below AAA. FWIW, It sounds like Memphis, Nashville, Des Moines, (St. Paul?) will no longer be in the PCL starting next year. Either a 3rd league will be created for central teams, or they'll move to the IL and leave only 8 teams who are actually in the west in the PCL. 

 

It's certainly possible that Rochester could get demoted, but it would seem at least somewhat less likely. With Buffalo and Syracuse both still AAA. 

 

There hasn't been any large scale announcement of who is going where - especially in regards to realignment - and general announcements of league changes, like Midwest going HIgh-A while Florida State becomes Low A. 

 

The only team specific announcements/rumors I've seen are:

Yankees leaving Trenton and Charleston for Somerset (previous indie now AA) and Hudson Valley (previously SS-A, now High-A).

Oakland leaving Beloit for Vancouver (previous SS, now High-A). 

Miami leaving Wichita for Jacksonville (previous AA, now AAA) and moving AA to Pensacola. 

Minnesota leaving Rochester for St. Paul or Wichita. 

 

MLB was apparently not happy with how those were being made public and has told teams to keep quiet until they make a larger official announcement that is supposed to come any day now. 

[DocBauer]

I think we all need to let go any misgivings about the loss of certain milb franchises and the "homey" feelings of the "good old days" we might have grown up with. I am NOT being callous, simply, a realist for what is taking place. As I stated in another thread, I can appreciate what MLB is doing and reserve judgement until we see how it all plays out.

 

*Side Note: I am excited about situations such as the Appalachian League becoming a college showcase league with the support of MLB. (Shout out to Ash for providing a great link). I am hopeful other cities will find their niche.

 

From a purely logical standpoint, a lot of what is happening makes sense. Travel, promotions, scouting and even building a fan base that makes more sense regionally can benefit both ML teams and their affiliates.

 

Nowheresville has a recently posted a blog on TD that indicates 10yr contracts will be the way of things for teams and affiliates. This makes tremendous sense for both parties, and could even put the ML franchise on the hook for such things as facility improvements. And I think that would be a good thing.

 

I like the idea of Ft Myers being low A and in the vicinity of the Twins primary ST/milb facility. I'm sure Cactus ML teams would look to do the same. It actually makes a ton of sense!

 

Once upon a time, the American Association used to be the 3rd milb AAA league. If MLB wants to continue to have a milb championship, with all of their logistical re-alignment, they will have to consider keeping just the PLC and IL, OR, expanding to 4 leagues, possibly with crossover games, and keep things even more regional with their AAA championship.

 

And speaking of the American Association...now an independent league...you have to wonder about the future of independent leagues. Especially with the Appy League becoming said college showcase league. St Paul becoming the Twins AAA team makes tons of sense for both parties, especially if the Twins help pay at least part of the $20M price tag. I think they'd be silly not to! How does the St Paul ownership lose anything? Fans won't come out any longer to see baseball simply because they don't like the Twins? Please! Milb baseball is grounded in a cheaper form of family fun and baseball with promotions, fun, giveaways, etc. The level of baseball would only improve, as would interest in seeing potential ML players. (Any sudden rise in cost for a day at the ballpark is a different story). But the independent American Association could be about ready to sucum.

 

And that brings me to an idea easily dismissed by others a few months ago I think should be re-investigated. The Lincoln Nebraska Salt Dogs of the same AA have been a viable franchise with success. They share Hawk's Field at Haymarket Park with the Husker baseball team. It's a beautiful brick-style park that seats 4,500 with an additional 4,000 berm and OF grass fans. There is room for expansion. The stadium has been home for not only the Huskers and the Salt Dogs, but countless concerts and special events, including college baseball regionals. Nebraska as a whole, Omaha and Lincoln, have become a centralized location for college, independent and Olympic sports over the past few decades. And if you don't know that, you aren't paying enough attention, or at least aren't from the area. LOL!

 

Some have argued with me a milb franchise couldn't exist 45 miles away from Omaha and the Royals AAA team. But I'm talking AA, not AAA, in a city that has supported the Salt Dogs in the AA. A city that is sports crazy, in a state that is sports crazy without a single "true" professional franchise. Unless there is some crazy way MLB would be treated differently by the NCAA vs the AA, this could be a tremendous fit for everyone.

 

Now, Wichita is an interesting idea and alternative! As I recall, they have been mostly or exclusively a AA franchise previously. They sit in an odd nomansland geographically between multiple ML franchises. But they fit just as well with the Twins as anyone. Were I the Twins FO/ownership, I'd be VERY interested in them as my new AA affiliate. Especially with a brand new park, as reported.

 

I'm not sure Twins ownership can lose here if they are just willing to invest a bit. Florida takes care of low A, EST, ST, and whatever rookie indoctrination they establish. St Paul is your AAA franchise. Wichita or Lincoln is your AA with Cedar Rapids your high A.

 

Where is the downside?

[Nine of twelve]

 

I'm not sure Twins ownership can lose here if they are just willing to invest a bit. Florida takes care of low A, EST, ST, and whatever rookie indoctrination they establish. St Paul is your AAA franchise. Wichita or Lincoln is your AA with Cedar Rapids your high A.

Where is the downside?

Look at the geographic distribution of the three AA leagues. Wichita could maybe join the Texas league but that would happen only if one of the other franchises is eliminated, and in that unlikely event there are several cities farther south that make more sense. Lincoln is a non-starter. And even if MiLB is realigned to make Wichita available I'm sure the Royals would be all over it.

There just isn't going to be a AA team close to Minnesota. Staying in the Southern League, as close to Ft. Myers as possible, is probably the best the Twins can hope for.

[twinfan]

Wherever they play, I hope they stay in the IL as I always go to see Rochester play when they come to town. My questions about St Paul would be a) Does the rule about not having a minor league team within X number of miles come into play? and Would a St Paul AAA team take attendance away from the Twins as they would be much cheaper? And as for selling merchandise, almost anywhere outside of Minnesota there would be more Yankee, Dodger, etc stuff sold than Twins stuff. Sorry but that's just the facts ma'am.

[Rosterman]

 

Look at the geographic distribution of the three AA leagues. Wichita could maybe join the Texas league but that would happen only if one of the other franchises is eliminated, and in that unlikely event there are several cities farther south that make more sense. Lincoln is a non-starter. And even if MiLB is realigned to make Wichita available I'm sure the Royals would be all over it.

There just isn't going to be a AA team close to Minnesota. Staying in the Southern League, as close to Ft. Myers as possible, is probably the best the Twins can hope for.

Which is why I'm sad to see Pensacola change hands. Low-A and AA teams near each other would work fine. The Twins would still have High-A (Cedar Rapids) and AAA (St. Paul) to shuffle some players in an emergency. Plus players could rehab and play in St. Paul, while still working with Twins staff.

 

I wonder how many players will be in Ft. Myers. There will be NO short-season ball anymore, as I understand (no Elizabethton or even GCL ball, right?). So will the Twins have up to 75 players in the Ft. Myers complex (which also has housing). That would make a max of, saay, 150 players in the system.

 

I am very curious to see how the MLB indy-ball leagues will be operating. And if minor league players had concerns about the lack of pay before, how will pay differ in the new indy leagues. Let alone the "summer camp" collegiate woodball league. Places where players either have to have a second income of sorts, or really good housing prospects for the time they are in play.

[Joey Self]

As Homer Simpson would say: D-oh!

I told my wife when the Twins put the AA team in Pensacola that we should retire there and see if we could get jobs as ushers so we could get into the game free and be able to see much of the action. 

I was kidding.  A little.  We're still at least 4 years from retirement, and probably more than that.  And moving to Florida isn't her idea of a good place to live year round.  

But if the Blue Wahoos aren't associated with the Twins, that attraction would disappear for me.  

 

JcS

[jamisea]

IMHO from a Pensacola perspective, we would be sad to see the Twins leave. We love the Twins and their organization from the players up are all FIRST CLASS.

From my understanding, MLB wants their affiliates realigned in order to get geographically closer to farm teams. So I chuckle about Miami. Geographically, If I need to drive to Miami from Pensacola: 11 hours. If I need to fly there, there are few direct flights.

The closest MLB teams to Pensacola are Atlanta, Tampa Bay, Houston and by 3 miles—the Texas Rangers.

 

The rumor mill is def. working OT in Pensacola though. I have head the Mariners and D-Backs are also interested—neither of which make any geographical sense....

 

[nowheresville]

 

Wichita could maybe join the Texas league but that would happen only if one of the other franchises is eliminated, and in that unlikely event there are several cities farther south that make more sense. Lincoln is a non-starter. 

 

Wichita's joining the Texas League would be alongside San Antonio also being demoted from AAA, growing the Texas League by 2 teams. The two AA teams being eliminated would both seem to come from the Southern League - with Jacksonville being promoted to AAA and then another team being contracted. Chattanooga was on the original contraction list, so that would be my guess. Wichita used to be in the Texas League, prior to it's franchise moving to NW Arkansas, so it's a pretty comfortable fit.

 

Lincoln is a non-starter from a Geography perspective, but it has nothing to do with Omaha having a team. It's just too much of an outlier to be anything other than a AAA team, because AA and below travel by bus. It's the same problem that keeps Duluth, Rochester (MN), Fargo or any other Minnesota city from joining affiliated minor league ball. 

[nowheresville]

 

From my understanding, MLB wants their affiliates realigned in order to get geographically closer to farm teams. So I chuckle about Miami. Geographically, If I need to drive to Miami from Pensacola: 11 hours. If I need to fly there, there are few direct flights.

The closest MLB teams to Pensacola are Atlanta, Tampa Bay, Houston

 

Here's what you have to remember though, Geography is relative. Atlanta is the closest city for almost every city in the Southern League, and obviously not every team can be a Braves affiliate. With the 3 AA Leagues being the Eastern, Southern, and Texas League, there's no close team for a lot of teams - including almost any team on the west coast. Pensacola probably is the closest or at least just about the closest AA team to Miami. 

 

But there's also reducing geography between levels. For both the Twins and Marlins, they previously had low A in Iowa, High A and Double A back down in Florida, and then AAA hundreds of miles away (In Rochester and Wichita respectively). The Marlins will probably now have teams going from Jupiter, to somewhere in the Carolinas, to Pensacola, to Jacksonville. Teams like the White Sox and Dodgers had already been doing that. The White Sox have all their Minor League teams in the Southeast, it's not close to Chicago, but its not expected to change. The Dodgers have had their AA and AAA teams both in Oklahoma, it's not close to California but also not expected to change.