Spend money just to spend money?

[Fire Dan Gladden]

Well said. Among the players the Twins are counting on to fill spots in their rotation, there are two guys coming off elbow scopes, one guy 9 months removed from TJ and one who got booted from an NL rotation on merit last year. Having Gibson and Hendriks prove they belong in Triple-A would be a good problem to have. Because if they're in the majors and show they don't belong, there ain't much to fall back on.

 

I've heard a lot of "Outside of Correia they've had a fine offseason" sentiment. That may be true. But the Correia signing is the crux of this whole thing. That was their marquee multi-year signing (no pun intended) and they went with one of the worst available guys on the market, a pitcher who is not noticeably better than much of what they already had.

 

Look, I truly am not a fan of the Correia signing. I have said many times that I thought it was a gross overpayment. But nobody here seems to be able to answer my question.

 

There has been lot of heat directed at the Twins FO for not acquiring better starting pitching. Can anybody tell me why this is solely the fault of the Twins FO? TR is getting blasted for not signing any one of a half dozen guys. Is it outside the realm of possibility that quality offers were made to some of these guys, but for any one of a hundred reasons they did not sign here?

[drjim]

I'm never against adding pitching depth but the cost is keeping Hendriks in the minors to begin the season and additionally to burn Gibson's innings in the minors. Over the course of the season it makes sense but does have consequences at the start of the year.

 

I never liked the Correia signing but I would still asserte the difference between him and the other pitchers that signed one and two year deals is pretty minimal - certainly not worth the outrage thag has been spilled on this site. McCarthy is better but is much hiher injury risk. The rest are really meh.

[SweetOne69]

At 140 million the twins would still make a profit....

 

First, unless you are their accountant you don't know that.

 

2nd, Forbes disagrees with you. In 2011 they had an operating income of $16M which isn't net profit but let's assume that it is which would mean that they would've been in the red with a payroll of around $128M.

[nicksaviking]

There has been lot of heat directed at the Twins FO for not acquiring better starting pitching. Can anybody tell me why this is solely the fault of the Twins FO? TR is getting blasted for not signing any one of a half dozen guys. Is it outside the realm of possibility that quality offers were made to some of these guys, but for any one of a hundred reasons they did not sign here?

 

Because it was more than a half dozen pitchers. I count 19 free agent pitchers, not including guys who had options picked up, that I prefer over Correia. That doesn't even count injury risk guys who have a glimmer of upside and would likely only require a minor league deal.

[SweetOne69]

2011 payroll? and a claimed profit of 26.6 million dollars?

 

First the $26.6M was operating income not profit and it was for the 2010 season when the Twins still receive profit sharing revenue. The next year the operating income dropped to $16M.

[old nurse]

Look, I truly am not a fan of the Correia signing. I have said many times that I thought it was a gross overpayment. But nobody here seems to be able to answer my question.

 

There has been lot of heat directed at the Twins FO for not acquiring better starting pitching. Can anybody tell me why this is solely the fault of the Twins FO? TR is getting blasted for not signing any one of a half dozen guys. Is it outside the realm of possibility that quality offers were made to some of these guys, but for any one of a hundred reasons they did not sign here?

 

One day i looked back through different sites and found the Twins linked to about a dozen pitchers.

There is no knowledge of actual offers made. counteroffers and ultimately being rejected.

There is no knowledge of offers made and players said no thank you.

There is no knowledge of agents telling the Twins don't even bother me, my client is not coming.

There is a safe assumption that the Twins prefer a two year contract and players want longer.

There is a claim by Doogie that the Twins made only a few offers. Do not even bother to ask who they made offers to.

[Willihammer]

but there should be a logical plan of who it is spent on and where they fit on the roster both this year and in the future.

 

I don't think so many of these guys have earned a spot in the plan yet. What has Hendriks, Correia, Pelfrey, Harden, Blackburn, Dozier, or Parmelee done to earn a roster spot in 2013, much less 2014 or 2015? You don't pencil guys into your plans based on what they did 2 years ago in the NL when they were healthy, what they did in AA, what they did in 2008-2009, or even what their paycheck is. You field the best team you can, certainly until you run out of cash, and you don't stop there if you don't have to, as long as there are better options available.

 

If the Twins do sign Marcum, and Marcum tanks, and one of Rich Harden / Pelfrey / Gibson / Hendriks is able to replace him for pennies on the dollar, that is still a win. There is no downside.

[edavis0308]

Why would it be stretching it? Is it so hard to believe that the intention may have been to do as was said initially, but as the winter went on things did not go according to plan? Every beat reporter, every national pundit talked about how the Twins were in play with virtually every starting pitcher on the market. And yes, prices were considerably higher than expected for starting pitching, even the mediocre ones.

 

The Twins promised to add starting pitching which would improve the staff. By my calculations they did that (are you telling me that Worley, Corriea, and potentially Harden are not upgrades over what we had at the end of last year). It may not be perfect: they dramatically overpaid for Corriea and Harden is a risk, but they did improve.

 

I also hoped that they would be able to sign better quality starting pitching. I too believe that a couple of small breaks in their favor and this team could be in the hunt for a playoff spot. To say TR intentionally misled the Twins fans about upgrading the pitching, especially without hard facts to support it, is defamation and not very responsible.

 

As for the TR kool-aid, if you are saying that I believe TR is the right person for the Twins organization due to his strengths in scouting and payroll control, then keep filling my glass. There are very few people that could come into this organization and do the job the way the Pohlads want.

 

They also reported after each free agent signing that the Twins never made a formal offer on, well, any of them. Not even a low ball offer. We have been down this road before. We know what it means when the Twins are "kicking tires" on someone.

[ThePuck]

I seriously wonder if some of the people who post on this site either work for the Pohlads and/or Ryan, are related to the Pohlads and/or Ryan, or are friends with the Pohlads and/or Ryan. I'm not even joking.

[Guest USAFChief]

Every beat reporter, every national pundit talked about how the Twins were in play with virtually every starting pitcher on the market.

 

Huh?

[snepp]

Based off of USA Today, the Twins payroll last year was somewhere around $74 million.

 

Uh, what? They were in the $95-100 million area.

[twinsnorth49]

I don't think so many of these guys have earned a spot in the plan yet. What has Hendriks, Correia, Pelfrey, Harden, Blackburn, Dozier, or Parmelee done to earn a roster spot in 2013, much less 2014 or 2015? You don't pencil guys into your plans based on what they did 2 years ago in the NL when they were healthy, what they did in AA, what they did in 2008-2009, or even what their paycheck is. You field the best team you can, certainly until you run out of cash, and you don't stop there if you don't have to, as long as there are better options available.

 

If the Twins do sign Marcum, and Marcum tanks, and one of Rich Harden / Pelfrey / Gibson / Hendriks is able to replace him for pennies on the dollar, that is still a win. There is no downside.

 

The only one I'll disagree with is Parmelee, the guy bashed an 1,102 OPS in AAA last year, I think he's earned a fair chance to show he can do it with the big club.

[old nurse]

I You don't pencil guys into your plans based on what they did 2 years ago in the NL when they were healthy, what they did in AA, what they did in 2008-2009, or even what their paycheck is.

 

I wish more people would follow this advice in terms of the healthy pitchers they wanted signed.

They ignored the last couple years of service. In looking at what the pitcher potentially brings to the team you need to look pre injury to find the ceiling. What that person's new normal is you have to wait and find out. That is why Pelfrey got a one year deal. Look at Blackburn. He was never the same after the first time bone chips were removed.

[twinsnorth49]

I seriously wonder if some of the people who post on this site either work for the Pohlads and/or Ryan, are related to the Pohlads and/or Ryan, or are friends with the Pohlads and/or Ryan. I'm not even joking.

 

Because they're not entitled to your opinion?

[nokomismod]

In the end, IF a GM can assemble a roster that will entertain fans and keep their interest all season long for $80 million, then there's no reason to just hand that same group of players an extra $20 million just so you can say you have a $100 million payroll.

 

But that's NOT the case with the Twins. Their $78.5 million team this summer seems unlikely to maintain fan interest, much less support. The result would then be even lower revenues... and, based on the Twins' historical approach, an even lower payroll the following year. The downward spiral would not be broken until either (a) the Twins decide to go against their prior trends and invest more in talent and show some faith in their fans that the resulting improved product would increase fan support; or ( they get lucky and have a season where a bunch of minimum wage players win a lot of games. In which case, the increased revenues might... might... be used to keep some of those players in a Twins uniform beyond their arbitration years.

 

Thank you for stating this point, that I agree with whole heartedly, so eloquently. The Twins are in a very dangerous position of losing the casual fans like they did in ~1993. I am convinced that they need to partly spend their way out of this situation and behave a little bit like the Angels and the Strangers for a change.

 

Sometimes I wonder if TR, views spending little money on payroll as a win win. If the payroll is low, and the team produces, he's a genious. If the payroll is low and the team doesn't produce, well then that's okay because we expected it. It's risky to do what the Angels and Strangers are doing, but don't we as fans deserve a little bit of that too?

[johnnydakota]

Based off of USA Today, the Twins payroll last year was somewhere around $74 million. Add in your claimed profit of $26.6 million (where did that come from by the way?), that would allow them to go up to about $100 million (assuming that the Pohlads would be willing to accept a break even year, which I doubt).

 

Even adding in the $20 million in additional TV revenue, tell me again how they would still make a profit with a $140 million dollar payroll?

2012 payroll of 74 million? where did you get your information? in 2011 the Twins had a payroll of about 113 million.As you said the Pohlads will not accept a break even season ,add in a profit of 26.6 million and an increase in tv revenue of 25 million and where do you sit?

[ThePuck]

Thank you for stating this point, that I agree with whole heartedly, so eloquently. The Twins are in a very dangerous position of losing the casual fans like they did in ~1993. I am convinced that they need to partly spend their way out of this situation and behave a little bit like the Angels and the Strangers for a change.

 

Sometimes I wonder if TR, views spending little money on payroll as a win win. If the payroll is low, and the team produces, he's a genious. If the payroll is low and the team doesn't produce, well then that's okay because we expected it. It's risky to do what the Angels and Strangers are doing, but don't we as fans deserve a little bit of that too?

 

Not only that, but a couple 3 or even 4 year deal right now doesn't hurt us monetarily in the future. 80M payroll for 2013, 20M more off the books by 2014, and another 7M in 2015 (at the latest). By 2015, we're gonna have Mauer and a bunch of pre-arbitration starters with a couple 1st year arbitration starters thrown in there. Payroll will continue to drop.

 

Made no sense to not go and get TWO QUALITY pitchers, maybe a middle IF to improve this club. Doesn't hurt our ability to spend in the future, but does improve our team this year if only slightly and they'd always be a trade chip later.

 

We don't want our team to be a little better this year when there's no downside to making it a little better? I don't get that logic.

[Riverbrian]

I seriously wonder if some of the people who post on this site either work for the Pohlads and/or Ryan, are related to the Pohlads and/or Ryan, or are friends with the Pohlads and/or Ryan. I'm not even joking.

 

To me... It's not about that at all... It's about letting the guy do his job.

 

I have personally disagreed with all GM's on individual moves many many times.

 

I also notice that the posters on this site provide a wide variety of individual opinion on every subject and very rarely do we see a uniform opinion on any topics brought up.

 

So... I believe the odds of any GM being in lock step with everyone is pretty small and because of the impossibility of being in lock step with everyone... I believe the GM gets attacked unfairly.

 

I think Terry Ryan did a great job his first go round and am willing to see what happens in the 2nd go round.

 

I believe that the Twins have many employees beyond Terry Ryan... All of these employees have a full time job to make assessments and recommendations and they have information and direct contact that we don't have. None of us are employed full time to make assessments and recommendations. We do it as a hobby. I will tend to side with those who do it for a living.

 

It's about letting Terry Ryan and his staff do their jobs.

[ThePuck]

I will tend to side with those who do it for a living.

 

It's about letting Terry Ryan and his staff do their jobs.

 

That's fine, but do you apply that principle across the board? In other words, all politicians, all CEOs, all policemen, all bankers, etc...basically anyone who does something for a living that you don't?

[Riverbrian]

That's fine, but do you apply that principle across the board? In other words, all politicians, all CEOs, all policemen, all bankers, etc...basically anyone who does something for a living that you don't?

 

That's a good question... (thinking)... In most cases yes... Just using your examples...

 

Politicians... I don't trust any of them and stopped caring what they think a long time ago. I think the the process is corrupt and driven by special interest and not the people... But as I say that... I believe that the Politicians know what it takes to be a politician better than I... So Yeah to that... They know what it takes to get re-elected and what it takes to get re-elected is what frustrates me.

 

CEO's... Yeah... They have to consider big picture stuff that we haven't even thought of. They would have to have a better understanding of what it takes to run a major company than I.

 

Policemen... Most yeah... I don't get shot at doing my job.

 

Bankers... ?

 

The point you are trying to make... I assume... Is that there are people that are bad at their jobs.

 

I agree... If you have 30 GM's... Someone is probably the worst of the bunch. Are we saying Terry Ryan is on the bottom rung? I think he did a good job his first go round. He started his 2nd go round in a hole. I think it's too soon to assess his 2nd go round.

 

I'm willing to let him do his job.

[kab21]

As for pitching Dempster' date=' Sanchez and Jackson would have been nice to have to mentor the younger pitcher ,and would have brought a nice package come july....Or next winter[/quote']

 

I agree that the Twins should have signed more players in FA with the hopes of adding talent to the roster and potentially trading them. But you don't sign guys for 52+M or 80+M to trade them a year later.

[old nurse]

Not only that, but a couple 3 or even 4 year deal right now doesn't hurt us monetarily in the future. 80M payroll for 2013, 20M more off the books by 2014, and another 7M in 2015 (at the latest). By 2015, we're gonna have Mauer and a bunch of pre-arbitration starters with a couple 1st year arbitration starters thrown in there. Payroll will continue to drop.

 

Made no sense to not go and get TWO QUALITY pitchers, maybe a middle IF to improve this club. Doesn't hurt our ability to spend in the future, but does improve our team this year if only slightly and they'd always be a trade chip later.

 

We don't want our team to be a little better this year when there's no downside to making it a little better? I don't get that logic.

 

I think the chief argument may be what is deemed a quality pitcher to add for the money. I don't disagree that the Twins needed to add quality pitchers. I don't think many would disagree that adding two pitchers who would be a capable #2 or 3 starters is a bad idea.

Not a maybe on improving the middle infield.

See, we can almost agree.

[Mike Sixel]

How many 90 loss seasons should we give them before we criticize them? The lack of youngish players is actually an indictment of Ryan, not Smith, as it takes 3 to 5 years to first appear in the majors....interestingly, many of the best players in the minors, and diamond, were acquired by Smith...

[drjim]

I don't think so many of these guys have earned a spot in the plan yet. What has Hendriks, Correia, Pelfrey, Harden, Blackburn, Dozier, or Parmelee done to earn a roster spot in 2013, much less 2014 or 2015? You don't pencil guys into your plans based on what they did 2 years ago in the NL when they were healthy, what they did in AA, what they did in 2008-2009, or even what their paycheck is. You field the best team you can, certainly until you run out of cash, and you don't stop there if you don't have to, as long as there are better options available.

 

If the Twins do sign Marcum, and Marcum tanks, and one of Rich Harden / Pelfrey / Gibson / Hendriks is able to replace him for pennies on the dollar, that is still a win. There is no downside.

 

I don't necessarily think Correia or Pelfrey are good but they were signed to be in the starting rotation. The Twins are not going to sign another litcher and bump them to the bullpen (barring injury) for at least a couple of months. That is the reality of the situation.

 

I also am not implying that Hendriks or Dozier are the answer but I would rather see them get the chance then another backend stiff or Kelly Johnson. At least for this season.

[Willihammer]

That smells like entitlism to me. Guys making 5/10 can fail as easily as guys making min. wage. Paying them more won't make them perform better.

 

We are talking about a guy who fell out of the Pirates rotation twice last year, and a guy who for all intents and purposes, hasn't thrown a pitch since 2011. Neither have pitched in the AL.

 

Jr said we were done with scholarships. That was supposed to be the lesson of Blackburn.

[old nurse]

That smells like entitlism to me. Guys making 5/10 can fail as easily as guys making min. wage. Paying them more won't make them perform better.

 

We are talking about a guy who fell out of the Pirates rotation twice last year, and a guy who for all intents and purposes, hasn't thrown a pitch since 2011. Neither have pitched in the AL.

 

Jr said we were done with scholarships. That was supposed to be the lesson of Blackburn.

Being done with scholarships meant they would send down well paid players.

[Willihammer]

Seriously, how short are our memories here. Why shouldn't Correia end up like Marquis, and Harden end up like Zumaya?

 

We have solidified exactly two rotation spots - Diamond and Worley. And at that, guys have awfully short track records of success.

 

I'd be fine if Jr's strategy was a lot of small gambles on reclamation projects. But he hasn't really brought in the numbers to make that strategy viable.

 

I'd also be fine with going all in with a small number of high priced, surefire talents, even if that leaves a rotation hole or two at the back end, but he hasn't really done that either. He's sort of split the difference again. I guess we just cross our fingers and hope for better luck this time.

[TheLeviathan]

. McCarthy is better but is much hiher injury risk.

 

Why,in their current state, should the Twins care at all about risk? If anything, they should be taking advantage of the fact that they can and SHOULD be willing to gamble on risk. No one is talking 7 years of payroll-breaking here. We're talking about 3 year deals on a payroll that is only going to shrink further in the coming seasons.

 

I appreciate how savvy Ryan is about good business decisions. But with this much available payroll and this much need, his unwillingness to gamble or take risks at all is a bit disturbing.

[TheLeviathan]

Why would it be stretching it? Is it so hard to believe that the intention may have been to do as was said initially, but as the winter went on things did not go according to plan?

 

Ryan is a smart man, if he's going to pronounce that boldly to the fan-base - he should know he has to deliver. Even if the cost isn't very palatable to him. The Twins promised more than just improvements. Given how awful their talent was last year, the bar you're setting for those promises is incredibly low and was virtually guaranteed to be passed by the signing of any warm body. That isn't what was promised.

 

To say TR intentionally misled the Twins fans about upgrading the pitching, especially without hard facts to support it, is defamation and not very responsible.

 

I'm not sure where you're getting this stuff. I don't know if he was misleading or naive. I'm just not comfortable with either answer. And I'm definitely not comfortable with the spin after the results.

 

and do the job the way the Pohlads want.

 

That may very well be the problem. This is a fanbase that jumps on and off quickly, they are risking turning that jewel in downtown Minneapolis into a ghost-town if this is all the commitment they have to the talent on the field. I'll ask it again - if the Pohlad's don't think this product is worth spending money on.....why in the hell should I? And before you say "Ok...that's your choice" just remember how quickly a few choices like that compound themselves for the health of the franchise.

[old nurse]

Why,in their current state, should the Twins care at all about risk? If anything, they should be taking advantage of the fact that they can and SHOULD be willing to gamble on risk. No one is talking 7 years of payroll-breaking here. We're talking about 3 year deals on a payroll that is only going to shrink further in the coming seasons.

 

I appreciate how savvy Ryan is about good business decisions. But with this much available payroll and this much need, his unwillingness to gamble or take risks at all is a bit disturbing.

 

Why shouldn't the Twins be taking risks? The Twins are owned by people who made over a billion dollars on taking risks. Very calculated ones