Spend money just to spend money?

[Highabove]

Seriously? Big businesses get huge tax breaks and concessions all the time from cities and states looking to bring them in or have them build in a specific spot. The only thing about the Twins is that they are a very much in the public eye.

 

Really, 350 million dollars in cash (not tax breaks) and an increase in the Sales Tax to pay for it. Please enlighten me on the Businesses who have received the same deal in this area.

[ThePuck]

Ron Gardenhire at the winter carivan today said ...after finishing last 2 years in a row Twins fans deserve better.... ok Terry its up to you to get better players !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

He said the same thing last year, minus the 2 years in a row part

[Shane Wahl]

How is this conversation still going on? It is obvious that the Twins should be spending BOTH more efficiently and spending more overall. And it is equally obvious that Kevin Correia is a ridiculous example of Twins spending.

[BrentMpls]

They needed to do something to energize the fan base, and didn't.

 

Signing Zack Greinke would be a good example of something along those lines.

 

With 2 bad seasons 3 years into a new ballpark, and the Wild showing that some owners in this town are willing to drop the big bucks, you have to show life.

 

After a certain point there wasn't much left to grab, and at that point I do feel like it would be spending just to spend. The real issue here was not acting fast on the big dollar guys available. Yes, you're overpaying. It sucks. But you have to weigh it with everything going on, and 2 years of suck with more to come, and other teams stepping up (Wild, Wolves) it would be nice to see some life from my favorite team in my favorite sport.

 

Right now the most exciting thing going on for the Twins is Target Field hosting the All-Star game next year. You have to have more than that going on for your ballclub.

[glunn]

In the spanish alphabet there are extra letters, extra accsents (punctuations), when i use this symbol ( i am pressing the number nine.

not shifting up , but simply the number nine.once again let me say i apoligise....we are all twins fans

hope we get a good season soon , have a nice day ...

 

I am on your side. Please note that after you type a post, if you see any words that have a red squiggly line under them, such words are generally misspelled -- one exception would be a name that the software does not recognize. If you try to correct the spelling mistakes (using this tool) your posts will be easier to follow. That said, I am glad that we have brother fans in Mexico.

[glunn]

So can we as fans. The problem with that is, the more of us that do that, the more it compounds the problem. Which only limits the success of the franchise long-term. Not spending now or showing a lack of commitment to the team now does have long-term ramifications. This franchise's history with that wasn't that long ago we should forget.

 

If enough fans vote with their wallets, by not attending games, maybe the owners will change their ways.

[old nurse]

Really, 350 million dollars in cash (not tax breaks) and an increase in the Sales Tax to pay for it. Please enlighten me on the Businesses who have received the same deal in this area.

 

761 million to Northwest Airlines to build maintenance facilities up north that they never did.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

Really, 350 million dollars in cash (not tax breaks) and an increase in the Sales Tax to pay for it. Please enlighten me on the Businesses who have received the same deal in this area.

 

Compact Powers in Michigan got $150 million to build Volt batteries (instead of outsourcing). A few years back Target got an insane check to keep their headquarters in MN.

 

Let's not get into subsidies that certain industries get to stay afloat or keep jobs in the USA. For example the top 5 big oil companies get something to the tune of $4 billion annually. Being in Minnesota, we know farmers get subsidized all the time. Make no mistake that tax breaks equal cash.

 

Losing a sports team due to state funding does not do well come re-election time. Nobody wants to be the Governor that lost the Twins...

[SweetOne69]

What other Businesses beg for a large public subsidy to run their operation?

 

Almost all of them.

[Top Gun]

Get over it, you still have to make improvements.Winning is the only answer for the Twins.

[TheLeviathan]

If enough fans vote with their wallets, by not attending games, maybe the owners will change their ways.

One word: Contraction. I think we know how this ownership responds to that. Not to say they contract but they def dont spend out of trouble.

[nicksaviking]

If enough fans vote with their wallets, by not attending games, maybe the owners will change their ways.

 

You would think the Twins would get the message, but it seems to work the oposite way. Last year, fans were fewer meaning revenue decreased which in turn seems to be decreasing payroll.

 

Detroit spends money to put a good product on the field to prove to their fans they are commited to giving them a winning team which in turn increases fan demand. The Twins on the other hand seem to demand fans prove their loyalty to the team in the form of spending money at the stadium (or flat out demanding a stadium) before they'll financially invest in a winning product on the field.

[SweetOne69]

You would think the Twins would get the message, but it seems to work the oposite way. Last year, fans were fewer meaning revenue decreased which in turn seems to be decreasing payroll.

 

Detroit spends money to put a good product on the field to prove to their fans they are commited to giving them a winning team which in turn increases fan demand. The Twins on the other hand seem to demand fans prove their loyalty to the team in the form of spending money at the stadium (or flat out demanding a stadium) before they'll financially invest in a winning product on the field.

 

Detroit has an ulterior motive. It's owner Mike Ilitch is desperate to get a WS title before he dies. He has won 4 Stanley Cups in the 30 years that he has owned the Red Wings.

[Riverbrian]

Compact Powers in Michigan got $150 million to build Volt batteries (instead of outsourcing). A few years back Target got an insane check to keep their headquarters in MN.

 

Let's not get into subsidies that certain industries get to stay afloat or keep jobs in the USA. For example the top 5 big oil companies get something to the tune of $4 billion annually. Being in Minnesota, we know farmers get subsidized all the time. Make no mistake that tax breaks equal cash.

 

Losing a sports team due to state funding does not do well come re-election time. Nobody wants to be the Governor that lost the Twins...

 

And... If Minnesota doesn't do it... Memphis or Las Vegas will.

 

Not to mention... The Economic impact... Now it's debatable if a "NEW" stadium augmented the revenue for city significantly in comparison to what the dome brought in...

 

However it's pretty clear that the loss of the Minnesota Twins to Las Vegas would have taken dollars out of the community.

 

I've seen estimates of around 100 million per year. Not sure of the accuracy of those estimates but I think we can assume that baseball is a good thing economically.

[nicksaviking]

Detroit has an ulterior motive. It's owner Mike Ilitch is desperate to get a WS title before he dies. He has won 4 Stanley Cups in the 30 years that he has owned the Red Wings.

 

An ulterior motive to making large profits? For shame, this is a business, there should be no imperative to winning a title at obscene profit's expense.

 

The Twins had a elderly owner in the same situation a few years back. All he did was leverage the threat of losing the Twins into a new stadium. He also only needed to pay $125 million for his $545 million ballpark while Illitch pitched in $185 million to his $300 million ballpark.

[CDog]

Detroit spends money to put a good product on the field to prove to their fans they are commited to giving them a winning team which in turn increases fan demand. The Twins on the other hand seem to demand fans prove their loyalty to the team in the form of spending money at the stadium (or flat out demanding a stadium) before they'll financially invest in a winning product on the field.

 

Detroit went over a decade under Illitch without even reaching .500. And finished last only 5 years ago. And won fewer than 70 games 7 times in 9 years including back-to-back years losing 235 (!!!) games.

[Mike Sixel]

Most independent economic studies show stadiums cos governments money, not give them more money....but we are off topic....should the Twins be trying to be better this year, or not?

[nicksaviking]

Detroit went over a decade under Illitch without even reaching .500. And finished last only 5 years ago. And won fewer than 70 games 7 times in 9 years including back-to-back years losing 235 (!!!) games.

 

And since 1998, the Twins have had a higher payroll than Detroit only 4 times. That speaks more about Detroit's past incompetence at putting together a winning team than it does the team's willingness to spend money to improve the product.

[Willihammer]

And... If Minnesota doesn't do it... Memphis or Las Vegas will.

 

The truth behind MLB's threat to move or contract is unknowable, I think. The TC happens to be very comparable to TB and Miami in terms of market size. And if the Florida teams have proven anything, it is that A. a winning club in a new market is not guaranteed to be a payer into revenue sharing, and recently, B. a new stadium in a new market doesn't guarantee the team is a payer into the revenue sharing either. There are going to be new debts, fees, and taxes associated with a new park. So if fans aren't providing to cash to pay those things, then the proper move from ownership's perspective is to tank, as Loria did, and maximize revenue sharing income. It can easily be a swing of 40 million dollars or so, per year.

 

The thing that ultimately drives profit is fan loyalty. That takes years to build, and the Twins had been at it for 40 years when MLB started threatening to contract. So I am dubious that it would be so quick to throw that away for the risk of an even smaller market like Memphis or LV.

[Nick Nelson]

The Twins are a private run organization, allowed to spend their money however they would like. They have never made any bones about the fact they are being run like a business and not like a hobby. That means dollars matter in almost every decision. Very few companies run in the red for extended periods of time. It can't be done.

We all understand that it's a business. I personally think it's bad business to blatantly lie to your customers and to refuse to invest in giving them a better product. Do you really believe they'll be operating in the red if they spend over $80M? I didn't realize Target Field had dropped back down to Metrodome revenues after three years. The notion is especially ridiculous when you consider the TV money that's about to be dropping on them.

[Riverbrian]

The truth behind MLB's threat to move or contract is unknowable, I think. The TC happens to be very comparable to TB and Miami in terms of market size. And if the Florida teams have proven anything, it is that A. a winning club in a new market is not guaranteed to be a payer into revenue sharing, and recently, B. a new stadium in a new market doesn't guarantee the team is a payer into the revenue sharing either. There are going to be new debts, fees, and taxes associated with a new park. So if fans aren't providing to cash to pay those things, then the proper move from ownership's perspective is to tank, as Loria did, and maximize revenue sharing income. It can easily be a swing of 40 million dollars or so, per year.

 

The thing that ultimately drives profit is fan loyalty. That takes years to build, and the Twins had been at it for 40 years when MLB started threatening to contract. So I am dubious that it would be so quick to throw that away for the risk of an even smaller market like Memphis or LV.

 

I do agree... The equity they have built up would be tough to throw away. It's also very difficult to move a team politically inside MLB itself because the entire country has already been divided up. If the Twins wanted to move to Portland... Well... the Portland market has already been claimed by Seattle. The Mariners won't allow it unless Selig steps in and says to the Mariners that it's going to happen. The Owners would most likely band together to support Seattle in that case because they don't want the Royals moving into their territory.

 

As for being comparable to Tampa Bay and Miami... I wouldn't use the DMA Rankings as a guide. It will give you a false impression...

 

That's the Designated Market Area. You have to factor in all the other markets as well. Atlanta, St. Louis and Seattle are regional teams for example. Every team has additional markets to add to the purse. Markets like Orlando... Memphis, Nashville, Charlotte and Raleigh/Durham... Sacremento... Buffalo... Columbus...

 

The Twins have Fargo and Rochester and this is why the Twins are considered a small market team. The actual DMA doesn't provide an accurate picture. Tampa Bay is a low level team mostly because of the stadium and fan support.

 

The Twins had a crappy deal with the dome and very little extra revenue to show for it. If Memphis came a calling with a new stadium and MLB said OK... We will smooth it over with the Cardinals and Braves... Market Size wouldn't have stopped them. The Tennesee Twins could have had Memphis and Nashville together which equal the Twins Cities, plus the rest of Tennesee. Knoxville is bigger than Fargo.

 

All in all... It's complicated. I believe the Stadium was necessary for retaining the team for the long run. Eventually... They would have left. It just may have taken awhile.

[Willihammer]

All in all... It's complicated. I believe the Stadium was necessary for retaining the team for the long run. Eventually... They would have left. It just may have taken awhile.

 

You won't find many cities willing to build a stadium without a pro team already present there. I know it is illegal to do it in LA, which is why the Vikings threat to move there was bogus, incidentally (LA couldn't legally appropriate money to build a park without a team, and the NFL wouldn't sell the team unless there was a park built - and Zigi wouldn't sell the team unless he was paid for its future worth in LA, not its current value in MSP).

 

I suspect that ultimately the MLB, and the NFL, would come around to building their own (scaled down) parks, had the politicians not blinked. At least if you build your own park you can capitalize it, add it to the overall value of the franchise, instead of leasing it from the MBA. Considering the deal that the Twins settled with, whereby they don't own the property but still paid for a majority of it, I just don't buy the threat that MLB would have even contracted, let alone moved.

[Riverbrian]

You won't find many cities willing to build a stadium without a pro team already present there. I know it is illegal to do it in LA, which is why the Vikings threat to move there was bogus, incidentally (LA couldn't legally appropriate money to build a park without a team, and the NFL wouldn't sell the team unless there was a park built - and Zigi wouldn't sell the team unless he was paid for its future worth in LA, not its current value in MSP).

 

I suspect that ultimately the MLB, and the NFL, would come around to building their own (scaled down) parks, had the politicians not blinked. At least if you build your own park you can capitalize it, add it to the overall value of the franchise, instead of leasing it from the MBA. Considering the deal that the Twins settled with, whereby they don't own the property but still paid for a majority of it, I just don't buy the threat that MLB would have even contracted, let alone moved.

 

There's a lot of hurdles to clear... No doubt about it... As for not many Cities willing... I think quite a few would step up to the plate in some form or fashion but all it takes is one. When you have one... it can be taken for granted... When you don't have one... You have one way to get one... Intice someone to move.

 

Contraction... was a joke... Desperation for leverage in my opinion. Moving that would be hard... but it would have happened over time. Money makes the world go around.

[IdahoPilgrim]

As would I. Heck I'd be shocked if May starts a single MLB game ever. He was a RP prospect with the Phillies. Only when he came here did he become the next Cy Young in the wings.

 

I respectfully disagree. I saw him pitch last year in New Britain, and he was lights out. Granted, one start, but of all the pitchers I saw on that trip (and I saw plenty) he was far and away the best. And AA is not that far from MLB.

[PseudoSABR]

There's a threshold where spending more money no longer translates into enough wins where it's palatable for management/ownership. There's diminishing returns on chasing wins with dollars. I get that. Everyone should get that.

 

Maybe the Twins mismanaged that with Correa, and missed an opportunity to acquire a better asset, that's fair criticism.

 

I think it's also fair that the Twins should be looking to acquire assets at below market costs no matter if it necessarily helps compete or not in 2013, because those affordable assets might become tradeable assets. However, we generally accept that market costs for free agency tend to be overpayments (when compared to extensions and arbitration), and thus, acquiring such tradeable/affordable assets may not be possible. And again, spending the money might neither result in enough wins or in players that could be traded for other players.

 

I have no notion that saving money today will result in money to spend tomorrow, but I also think its reckless to recommend spending money that doesn't result in tangible competitiveness either now or in the future. I do believe that this kind of 'goodwill' from management to ownership MAY make it more palatable for ownership to go over budget when there's a real competitive competitive advantage to be gained. (I'm thinking of Kenny Rodgers here).

 

All this said, it's really hard for me to get too worked about the FO not spending more money.

[SweetOne69]

An ulterior motive to making large profits? For shame, this is a business, there should be no imperative to winning a title at obscene profit's expense.

 

The Twins had a elderly owner in the same situation a few years back. All he did was leverage the threat of losing the Twins into a new stadium. He also only needed to pay $125 million for his $545 million ballpark while Illitch pitched in $185 million to his $300 million ballpark.

 

First, Detroit isn't making a profit. According to Forbes their operating revenue has been in the red the last few years.

 

Second, Carl Pohlad has already won 2 WS titles so he wasn't as desperate as Ilitch. Hopefully at some point Jim wants to create his own legacy and not just bask in Carl's.

 

That being said of course I would like the Twins' to open the purse strings and spend some more money on quality players. I would like the payroll to be around $100M.

[Willihammer]

Teams can run deficits because their franchise equity is appreciating at an insane rate right now. Even the Twins have gained value at over 40% annually since 2002.

 

• MLB Minnesota Twins franchise value 2002-2012 | Statistic

[Willihammer]

I swear, counties and lawmakers across the country would be smart to bring in Boras to negotiate with owners when they come begging for public money. Just landed Soriano a 2/28m.

 

“Everybody else is below even though revenue is up 200 percent and franchise values are up 300, 400 percent. What we’re seeing is not many teams are spending on payrolls despite the fact that their profits are extraordinary. You’d expect teams to have their highest payrolls, but they don’t.”

[TheLeviathan]

I think it's also fair that the Twins should be looking to acquire assets at below market costs no matter if it necessarily helps compete or not in 2013, because those affordable assets might become tradeable assets.

 

Right now, a month before people start reporting, is precisely the time to do that. Marcum and Johnson are likely available for less than what they would have been previously provided you are willing to take a risk.

 

Everyone gets what you've said. There is no debate about magically making this team a contender. The problem is you not only hurt your talent level on the field, you hurt your standing publicly when you boast so loudly and flop so futilely and then pretend as though you've improved 2013 to have competitive games in September. Ownership might want to prioritize fan apathy over diminishing returns.

 

Especially when they're still drawing a profit regardless.

[JASONTYNER]

I think Jason Tyner is available, I wonder if we could coax him out of retirement for an incentive laden deal.....maybe he can pitch for us?