J.J. Hardy

[Coach J]

As I was reading mlbtraderumors.com, came across a quote from Buck Showalter that I really liked. When asked about the possibility of trading JJ Hardy, Showalter responded "what word is about "overwhelmed?" It just gets me mad thinking about the Twins trading JJ for basically nothing. I hated the trade at the time and really hate it now. My question is what would make the Twins trade him and get such little in return? I realize he didn't have a great year, but shortstops that hit for power and have a solid glove still have value. The Twins traded him at his lowest possible value. Money I think had a little to do with it. However, I have got a pretty good hunch Gardy was the one pushing hard for them to trade him. He doesn't like middle infielders that can't run or obviously ones that can hit for power lol. But seriously, I don't think anyone could have won with the product on the field the last two years. But I do think Gardy has quite a bit of say on most of the roster decisions. He is directly responsible for giving Alexi Casilla 15 chances at a starting gig. Anyone who thinks you can lose two good up the middle defenders like Hudson and Hardy and replace them with Alexi Casilla and Nishioka and not have a setback in wins should be examined. Anyways, just thought I would vent a little on that subject:mad: Thoughts?

[Chance]

My thought is that Hudson got us a great draft pick (Travis Harrison) and I think most if not all twins fans were pretty excited about Nishi until he didn't work out. It's easy to say now that it was a mistake but it was popular at the time, sometimes it just doesn't work out (seems more often as a twins fan). I wish we would have kept Hardy but he probably wouldn't have put up those numbers here because the twins didn't want him pulling the ball all time.

[one_eyed_jack]

My thought is that it's now 2013, and high time to stop whining about moves made in 2010 that didn't work out.

 

At this point you might as well be complaining about Bruno-for-Herr.

[twinsnorth49]

I agree, I wish we never had to trade Santana, I wish we would have kept Dickey, I wish, I wish, I wish................nope, not working.

[luke829]

Hindsight, alwasy 20/20.

[Brandon]

Everyone was upset about trading Hardy. I think we were even more upset at that then the Corriea signing. Cause both obviously meant punting the next season. But the Hardy trade was a long time ago and we have moved on. I think we were more curious than excited about Nishioka when we signed him. We were excited in that we actually signed a Japenese player but when we saw that signing also meant the end of Hardy being here I think that tempered any excitement that signing could have and changed it to I hope he doesn't suck which he did.

 

At this point I am hopeful the Twins still sign a pitcher or Johnson or Sanchez or a backup OF or even Inge. Someone they can flip for a monorleaguer later.

[Kwak]

After 2010 it was well known that Mauer would be a free agent and that the Twins had to be truly aggressive in their offer so as to re-sign Mauer. It was also known that much of the bullpen's contracts would also have to be renegotiated--but that Nathan's injury prevented any trade. The Pohlads weren't going to expand the payroll to "make everybody happy"--so some "had to go". Hardy was one of them. I think the rest of BB realized the Twins were in "salary dump mode" and took advantage. Why Hardy? I think he was in Gardenhire's doghouse because trading him for such a dubious return and then spending so much to acquire Nishioka (whose photograph is next to 'dubious' in the dictionary) confirms it wasn't just for salary reduction--there was "something else" going on.

[snepp]

Hindsight, alwasy 20/20.

 

There was no hindsight required to see that the Hardy trade was pure **** right from day one.

[Riverbrian]

The Trade was Terrible... No Doubt about it...

 

Sometimes you're the Louisville Slugger and Sometimes you're the ball...

 

Sometimes it all comes together.

 

Bill Smith has been removed from the OM position.

[Celebrity Weddings!]

After 2010 it was well known that Mauer would be a free agent and that the Twins had to be truly aggressive in their offer so as to re-sign Mauer

 

Mauer signed his extension in March of 2010.

[Boom Boom]

Nishioka didn't have anything to do with the Hardy trade. The plan was always to have T-Nish play second. Hardy was traded because Gardy didn't like him.

[ThePuck]

Nishioka didn't have anything to do with the Hardy trade. The plan was always to have T-Nish play second. Hardy was traded because Gardy didn't like him.

 

Yep, and Gardy wanted Casilla for his shortstop.

[nicksaviking]

I think the animosity was probably overblown seeing as Gardy gets along with most hard working players, and Hardy seems to be that kind of guy but the hitting philosophies of the two (or maybe just Vavra) certainly didn't mesh. The Twins wanted Hardy to hit to all fields while Hardy wanted to get around on everything and drive them to LF.

 

What sucks was, only a year later the Twins must have realized Hardy's preference was the correct one for right-handed hitters at Target Field because they let Willingham and Plouffe have a go at Hardy's approach.

[gunnarthor]

I think we might be getting a bit carried away with this. Hardy was due something like 6m and the team couldn't spend enough to keep Hardy, Thome and Pavano. Hardy was always dinged up a bit - he only started 95 games for us - and asked out of the lineup a lot leaving us with a 24 man bench. His defense was good but dWAR, for instance, showed him declining three years in a row. He wasn't killing it with the bat for us - Alexi Casilla actually had a higher OBP, SLG and OPS+ and was younger. The team decided to go with a MI of Nishi and Casilla. Obviously, that worked out.

 

Everyone in baseball knew that Hardy was available but Baltimore seemed to be the only team interested in him.

[Kwak]

Mauer signed his extension in March of 2010.

 

December 2010,

[FrodaddyG]

December 2010,

Let me google that for you

[John Bonnes]

I think we might be getting a bit carried away with this. Hardy was due something like 6m and the team couldn't spend enough to keep Hardy, Thome and Pavano. Hardy was always dinged up a bit - he only started 95 games for us - and asked out of the lineup a lot leaving us with a 24 man bench. His defense was good but dWAR, for instance, showed him declining three years in a row. He wasn't killing it with the bat for us - Alexi Casilla actually had a higher OBP, SLG and OPS+ and was younger. The team decided to go with a MI of Nishi and Casilla. Obviously, that worked out.

 

Everyone in baseball knew that Hardy was available but Baltimore seemed to be the only team interested in him.

 

Yep, right on. the primary reasons were:

1) Cost-cutting, after signing Nishioka.

2) He was fairly expensive and coming off of a couple of pretty bad years. He was also perceived as fragile.

3) There is a lot of 20/20 hindsight going on. He was not overly valued by anyone, as is seen by what Baltimore nabbed him for.

4) The Twins wanted to add speed.

 

At the time, I think I wrote that this was fair accomopli once they decided to go for Nishioka. They weren't going to pay for both. And I continue to believe that the Nishioka signing was more business-driven than team-driven. They were trying to expand their revenue base into Asia.

[Celebrity Weddings!]

December 2010,

 

Nope. It was March. Unless after your comma you meant to write "was nine months after Mauer signed his extension."

[ThePuck]

I was ecstatic when we traded for him and royally ticked off when he was traded away. No hindsight for me. And Hardy was trade before Nishi signed. And it was Gardy who specifically said he wanted speed.

 

Hardy had an OPS over .800 in the 2nd half and had the best UZR/150 for starting shortstops.

[Celebrity Weddings!]

They were trying to expand their revenue base into Asia.

 

Can you explain further about how this would work? I was under the impression that sales of Twins merchandise were part of the shared revenue pot, though I'm happy to be corrected on that point. Would they be able to get some more money from Japanese stations picking up Twins' broadcasts?

[jokin]

 

 

At the time, I think I wrote that this was fair accomopli once they decided to go for Nishioka. They weren't going to pay for both. And I continue to believe that the Nishioka signing was more business-driven than team-driven. They were trying to expand their revenue base into Asia.

 

And how did that "revenue base expansion" work out again? Still no fingeprints discovered at One Twins Way, they couldn't even identify the Marketing Department stenographer on that deal.

[ThePuck]

Can you explain further about how this would work? I was under the impression that sales of Twins merchandise were part of the shared revenue pot, though I'm happy to be corrected on that point. Would they be able to get some more money from Japanese stations picking up Twins' broadcasts?

 

Tickets sales, maybe?

[jokin]

Yep, right on. the primary reasons were:

1) Cost-cutting, after signing Nishioka.

2) He was fairly expensive and coming off of a couple of pretty bad years. He was also perceived as fragile.

3) There is a lot of 20/20 hindsight going on. He was not overly valued by anyone, as is seen by what Baltimore nabbed him for.

4) The Twins wanted to add speed.

 

 

 

 

1) Agreed, very short-sighted and panicky cost-cutting.

 

2) The Twins knew exactly what they traded for at the time of the Gomez deal, time has proven that any "perception" of fragility was post-rationalization of the deal on the Twins part. The stats show he had regained much of his hand strength in the 2nd half of 2010. (Hardy publicly criticized the Twins medical staff for extending his injury woes- along with the hitting philosophies).

 

3) No 20/20 hindsight from many Twins fans who castigated all levels of Twins management at the time (and ever since). The Orioles did indeed "nab" Hardy, Smith continually demonstrated vast abilities at having his pocket picked.

 

4) Nishi's lack of fundamentals in the field, combined with his Punch(less)-and-Judy batting style negated any marginal increase in speed.

[John Bonnes]

Can you explain further about how this would work? I was under the impression that sales of Twins merchandise were part of the shared revenue pot, though I'm happy to be corrected on that point. Would they be able to get some more money from Japanese stations picking up Twins' broadcasts?

 

I've been wondering about this myself. My best understanding is that it opens the door to corporate sponsorship from Japanese businesses.

[FrodaddyG]

I've been wondering about this myself. My best understanding is that it opens the door to corporate sponsorship from Japanese businesses.

So essentially, it's a sound byte that really doesn't mean much?

[Guest USAFChief]

1. The "20-20 hindsight" thing is really aggravating. Many...MANY...Twins fans ripped the deal at the time, with good reason. If you weren't one of them, fine. But don't come around now claiming hindsight, just because you couldn't see the Twins getting their pockets picked then.

 

2. I've never understood the "Twins signed Nishioka for marketing reasons" line of thought. Didn't then, don't now. Where was this money going to come from?

 

3. Hardy's second half, when he got healthy and was one of the best SS's in the league, was a primary reason for the Twins very good second half. "Didn't do anything" is wrong, too. He played exceptionally well over the last three months of the season.

 

4. "The Twins couldn't afford him" has no legs either. He wasn't much more expensive than Nishioka, and in any case, relatively cheap for a good shortstop. They could have extended Hardy AND signed Nishioka.

 

It was a foolish, shortsighted move any way you look at it. Any other take then, or now, really has no basis in logic or fact.

[johnnydakota]

Can you explain further about how this would work? I was under the impression that sales of Twins merchandise were part of the shared revenue pot, though I'm happy to be corrected on that point. Would they be able to get some more money from Japanese stations picking up Twins' broadcasts?

 

mlb gameday and broadcasts, in 2011 over 12.5 monthly subscriptions....1 of the money revenues mlb doesnt speak of...or over 2 billion in 2011 divided by 30 teams and a fee to the commisioners office to run mlb

[twinsnorth49]

It was a foolish, shortsighted move any way you look at it. Any other take then, or now, really has no basis in logic or fact.

 

I think most people agree with this, at what point do you move on and stop bitching about it?

[ThePuck]

I think most people agree with this, at what point do you move on and stop bitching about it?

 

This post is about JJ Hardy. If you're adamant about moving on, why did you even go on this thread? What did you think was being talked about?

[twinsnorth49]

This post is about JJ Hardy. If you're adamant about moving on, why did you even go on this thread? What did you think was being talked about?

 

I was hoping it was going to be something new and different, silly me.