Mackey: Twins Likely Done Making Significant Moves this Year

[TheLeviathan]

It is not realistic to think it is a bad idea ti sign free agents in hopes to trade them?

 

No, it's not. It's a perfectly good idea to sign players to a deal in hopes that they outperform it and generate trade value. If you don't deal them, you can always keep them ala Burton. This concept is ridiculously simple, I don't understand how you can't grasp it.

 

You still, along with everyone else, have no clue what contacts Ryan had with other free agents and the discussions or offers made. I am sure that you realize by now not everything goes as you would like. You can't make people like you, you can't make people work for you.

 

Well, had I claimed any such thing you might have a point. Perhaps Ryan shouldn't have made such explicit remarks before he had a clue what his contacts would yield. However good a try he gave it this offseason, results matter. Especially given the current payroll.

[darin617]

This has actually been a pretty good offseason. I'll give it a B w/o doing a thorough analysis (could be B+ or B-). My biggest disappointments are that the Twins didn't go out and get the best pitcher that 3/30-3/35 could buy and they didn't try real hard on any of the RP'ers/MI'ers available on 1-2 yr deals. It's always nice to have potential trade chips while making the team a little better.

 

Really? Just because they are looking towards 2014 or2015 to be competitive you still need to try to put a better product on the field. Oh, and don't slash payroll like a madman and then make a couple of minor moves next season and act like that was the plan the whole time.

 

Nothing but greed and overflowing pockets for Twins ownership. I can't wait to buy .79 cent tickets off stubhub and move into any of the empty seats near the dugouts. I guess that must be my Christmas present from Terry Ryan.

[old nurse]

You realize there are ways to sell hope other than how Ryan attempted to right? Ryan is a smart man and a good GM, he didn't have to be as direct about they would do unless he had every intention of making that happen, regardless of cost. Rather than be direct, for instance, about upgrading the rotation or the bullpen being his second biggest priority - he could have sold us vague nuggets about augmenting the roster in more general terms. But to be that direct about what he'd do and then miserably fail to do so while 20+ million sits unspent from last year? Yeah, that's on him.

 

His specificity is why he is accountable and people have good reason to be mad. You missed the analogy completely, in fact, you're playing it out yourself. He said something and you are re-interpreting it to soften criticism on Ryan, but most would agree - the marquee is what it is. His words stand for themselves, stretching to "read between the lines" is little more than a disingenuous spin-job.

 

You added regardless the cost. Where Ryan could be wrong is on the above average cost of players when he made the statement. The brain trust here guessed way off low on the cost of the quality free agents.

Seth Stohs in an early thread

"I think this is a market the Twins are best kind of sitting back and watching for a bit. Once Greinke signs, the next tier will go. Jackson and Sanchez should get decent deals, like over $20M. I'm not sure I see anyone else who would get more than $6M a year... I mean, i think if the Twins were aggressive, like they were with Carroll and Doumit last year, and offered Blanton 2 years and $12M, I think he'd probably sign. Guthrie was released 2 months ago.I'm intrigued by Ervin Santana, and I might go 3 years, $18M with him.

 

There you go... there's my strategy... be aggressive and see if you an have Anibal Sanchez (4 years, $28M), Ervin Santana (3 years, $18M), and Joe Blanton at 1 year, $5M. There's $18M and three pitchers who are likely the top three in the Twins rotation, followed by Diamond and then Deduno for the short-term. If they're not willing to sign those deals quickly, stay in good standing with their agents and offer them the same deal, or 95% of the same deal, in early January."

A little off from what happened. If Ryan had a similar blueprint 50% higher than what Seth predicted, Ryan still wouldn't have been in the running. The brain trust guessed wrong.

[TheLeviathan]

The brain trust guessed wrong.

 

Hence the criticism.

[twinsnorth49]

You realize there are ways to sell hope other than how Ryan attempted to right? Ryan is a smart man and a good GM, he didn't have to be as direct about they would do unless he had every intention of making that happen, regardless of cost. Rather than be direct, for instance, about upgrading the rotation or the bullpen being his second biggest priority - he could have sold us vague nuggets about augmenting the roster in more general terms. But to be that direct about what he'd do and then miserably fail to do so while 20+ million sits unspent from last year? Yeah, that's on him.

 

His specificity is why he is accountable and people have good reason to be mad. You missed the analogy completely, in fact, you're playing it out yourself. He said something and you are re-interpreting it to soften criticism on Ryan, but most would agree - the marquee is what it is. His words stand for themselves, stretching to "read between the lines" is little more than a disingenuous spin-job.

 

Yes I do realize that but thanks for taking the time to be a d**k. I was para-phrasing, I think you know that. I'm not talking about the words he used in his interview with John, I'm talking about his most recent words and I'll agree with you that those ones are nothing but a disingenuous spin job. To me, at this point he is spinning what he should of been spinning in November.

 

At some point he changed track or maybe that was the track all along, I'm not going to sit here and pretend to know why but I'm guessing it did change when Meyer was floated for Span and even further when Worley and May came up for Revere.

 

Again, I'm not saying you don't have a right to be upset but we all knew it was a tall order to begin with and once he found himself with three pretty decent arms under the age of 26 it was time to look further ahead. Or not, I don't know but I'm ok with giving him another year, maybe then I'll join the parade.

[twinsnorth49]

Really? Just because they are looking towards 2014 or2015 to be competitive you still need to try to put a better product on the field. Oh, and don't slash payroll like a madman and then make a couple of minor moves next season and act like that was the plan the whole time.

 

Nothing but greed and overflowing pockets for Twins ownership. I can't wait to buy .79 cent tickets off stubhub and move into any of the empty seats near the dugouts. I guess that must be my Christmas present from Terry Ryan.

 

Why would you want to watch?

[kab21]

Really? Just because they are looking towards 2014 or2015 to be competitive you still need to try to put a better product on the field. Oh, and don't slash payroll like a madman and then make a couple of minor moves next season and act like that was the plan the whole time.

 

Really. Before this offseason I was pretty down on 2013/2014/2015 but they made 2 brilliant trades and added 3 good, young arms to the org. It's also looking more likely that the Twins will have to draft a college arm in the draft because there are several of them that are likely the BPA. 2013 doesn't look that great but at least I am more optimistic about the future now and that's why it gets a B. A 'B' means that it could have been better though.

[Nick Nelson]

I think "2 brilliant trades" is a little strong. The Twins got back some good young arms for some good established outfielders. Worley is merely solid and neither of the pitching prospects they received has succeeded above Single-A yet, so I think it's a little soon to make such proclamations.

[old nurse]

Hence the criticism.

 

I view it as an honest mistake, not a repeated one. I really don't expect you to get the difference between them and why it is OK to rip on one and not the other.

[old nurse]

No, it's not. It's a perfectly good idea to sign players to a deal in hopes that they outperform it and generate trade value. If you don't deal them, you can always keep them ala Burton. This concept is ridiculously simple, I don't understand how you can't grasp it.

 

.

 

Did you read about Mark Buehrle's happiness about going to Toronto? I have read all of your comments on this subject. I guess it boils down to I don't want to view a human being as a commodity to be bought and sold. Yes I know people are traded all of the time,and part of the game. I know people are signed and moved. I don't think it was Chicago's intent to move Maholm when they signed him. A deal is too good to pass up. Trade the guy during a career year. They then had to go out and sign a free agent to a larger contract to replace Maholm. They had to give money to Atlanta.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't think it was Chicago's intent to move Maholm when they signed him..

 

That sounds an awful lot like you're making a claim based on something you know nothing about. Hasn't that been your go-to about Ryan? Hell, you just made that argument two posts ago.

 

Teams sign players with full knowledge they can trade them, especially short term deals. Players know it too. Burton is a good example - we signed him to a cheap deal, hoped he would have success and knew we could resign him, trade him, or at worst have one year of better bullpen success. All those options are on the table anytime there is a NTC.

[TheLeviathan]

Again, I'm not saying you don't have a right to be upset but we all knew it was a tall order to begin with and once he found himself with three pretty decent arms under the age of 26 it was time to look further ahead. Or not, I don't know but I'm ok with giving him another year, maybe then I'll join the parade.

 

I'm not calling for his head. Just accountability to what he said.

[twinsnorth49]

I'm not calling for his head. Just accountability to what he said.

 

Fair enough

[kab21]

I think "2 brilliant trades" is a little strong. The Twins got back some good young arms for some good established outfielders. Worley is merely solid and neither of the pitching prospects they received has succeeded above Single-A yet, so I think it's a little soon to make such proclamations.

 

If you take team strengths and weaknesses into account then they were brilliant. Ryan traded exactly what the Twins have a surplus of for exactly what the Twins need the most. I hope that he can make a similar trade of Willingham this season and potentially pick up another nice prospect or two by trading some of the guys like Morneau, Doumit, Perkins or Burton.

 

The main point however is that I now have hope for 2014/2015. That kind of defines a pretty good offseason even if I'm disappointed by their FA moves.

[edavis0308]

Yawn. Can we just open a new thread dedicated at your guys' battle royale?

[twinsnorth49]

Yawn. Can we just open a new thread dedicated at your guys' battle royale?

 

Sorry, I unintentionally used my Jedi mind powers to force you to open this thread and read every post.

[old nurse]

That sounds an awful lot like you're making a claim based on something you know nothing about. Hasn't that been your go-to about Ryan? Hell, you just made that argument two posts ago.

 

Teams sign players with full knowledge they can trade them, especially short term deals. Players know it too. Burton is a good example - we signed him to a cheap deal, hoped he would have success and knew we could resign him, trade him, or at worst have one year of better bullpen success. All those options are on the table anytime there is a NTC.

 

The evidence of the claim was based on as mentioned. I acknowledged that players can be traded at any time. Did not see that Burton or Doumit was traded. Do you supose they were signed then resigned because they are viewed ad valuable contributors to the team rather than a commodity? Ignore what you want. Be as the other poster called you.

[edavis0308]

Sorry, I unintentionally used my Jedi mind powers to force you to open this thread and read every post.

 

Look. Every thread is becoming the same pissing match. Maybe you can use your Jedi mind powers and PM me which ones are free of all this griping so I don't have to sift through it myself.

[ThePuck]

2015 isn't realistic. We're building for 2015 to have a chunk of our prospects come up, but not to be competitive. That's a pipe dream really, especially if it's almost all coming from players currently in the minors. They'll still need time in the majors to take their lumps, get their feet wet and gel as a team. The '87 team took about 5 years and even then, they made some key acquisitions from the outside to help.

 

If the majority of the prospects we have high hopes come up in 2014/2015, and almost all end up being the type of players we're hopign they'll be, we're looking at 2018, 2019 before we're competitive.

[twinsnorth49]

Look. Every thread is becoming the same pissing match. Maybe you can use your Jedi mind powers and PM me which ones are free of all this griping so I don't have to sift through it myself.

 

The fuzzy wuzzy forum isn't open yet, don't hold your breath.

[edavis0308]

The fuzzy wuzzy forum isn't open yet, don't hold your breath.

 

 

I couldnt help but lol at that one. haha.

[twinsnorth49]

I couldnt help but lol at that one. haha.

 

All in good fun.

 

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/drink/trink39.gif

[nicksaviking]

I view it as an honest mistake, not a repeated one. I really don't expect you to get the difference between them and why it is OK to rip on one and not the other.

 

It was a mistake, but it's not as though free agency takes place over the course of 24 hours. It was a miscalculation on the Twins part and they failed to adapt to it even though the Cubs gave every team a huge heads up that free agency was going to head this way when they "overpaid" for Baker and Feldmen. So in the sense that free agent after free agent passed with Ryan expecting them to sign for less money or less years, yes it is a repeated mistake. He's had two months to adjust to original mistake.

[Guest USAFChief]

2015 isn't realistic.

 

Agree 1000%.

 

The same "see no evil" crowd that finds excuses for why the Twins couldn't, or shouldn't, improve their team this winter, is drinking some strong kool-aid when they proclaim the team is "building for a run in 2014/15."

 

If you're planning on making a run based on players currently at A and AA levels, particularly pitching (of which there's no abundance, even with the minor league additions this winter), you better lengthen your timeline by a few years, at best.

 

It's why personally, I hate "playing for the future," and why improving your team now, immediately, is pretty much always the way to go. The old bird in the hand adage and all.

 

Besides which, as has been repeatedly pointed out by several posters here--and ignored by the rest--there is no reason signing a pitcher to a 4 or 5 year contract now would negatively impact the team in 2015, or 2016, when all these minimum wage all-stars are populating the roster, no matter how poorly he performs. And he might just still be an asset.

[Winston Smith]

"I Think We're All Bozos on This Bus"

[The Wise One]

Look. Every thread is becoming the same pissing match. Maybe you can use your Jedi mind powers and PM me which ones are free of all this griping so I don't have to sift through it myself.

 

I thought every thread here was dedicated to putting out untenable, unrealistic ideas. If not that then pissing and moaning. No need for facts as all are experts here. The baseball season will start, then there will be some semblance of a discussion of prospects. With, of course, some pissing and moaning. That you complain of people being pissy is rather pot like of you.

[nicksaviking]

Agree 1000%.

 

The same "see no evil" crowd that finds excuses for why the Twins couldn't, or shouldn't, improve their team this winter, is drinking some strong kool-aid when they proclaim the team is "building for a run in 2014/15."

 

If you're planning on making a run based on players currently at A and AA levels, particularly pitching (of which there's no abundance, even with the minor league additions this winter), you better lengthen your timeline by a few years, at best.

 

It's why personally, I hate "playing for the future," and why improving your team now, immediately, is pretty much always the way to go. The old bird in the hand adage and all.

 

Besides which, as has been repeatedly pointed out by several posters here--and ignored by the rest--there is no reason signing a pitcher to a 4 or 5 year contract now would negatively impact the team in 2015, or 2016, when all these minimum wage all-stars are populating the roster, no matter how poorly he performs. And he might just still be an asset.

 

So what your saying is it is unrealistic to expect a 25 man roster made up of 20 pre-arbitration eligible players to win the World Series? Blasphamous.

[TheLeviathan]

The evidence of the claim was based on as mentioned. I acknowledged that players can be traded at any time. Did not see that Burton or Doumit was traded. Do you supose they were signed then resigned because they are viewed ad valuable contributors to the team rather than a commodity? Ignore what you want. Be as the other poster called you.

 

Wait...what? You have ZERO evidence of their intent. Your "evidence" (loose at best to call it that) is more about their decision to deal him. And then you're just connecting dots you think are logical, but are really no evidence at all. They certainly are no different than someone saying "We said we'd do this......we didn't do it....we did this instead....therefore we were never in on any of the big FAs" The argument is the EXACT SAME. Your normally sane, balanced takes are taking a real hit with this near pathological need to defend the FO no matter what.

 

I don't doubt that they were resigned because they were valuable. But I also have no doubt that every short-term deal is negotiated with full knowledge on both sides of the table that a trade is significantly more likely because of the contract length. Again, this isn't that radical or difficult.

[old nurse]

Wait...what? You have ZERO evidence of their intent. Your "evidence" (loose at best to call it that) is more about their decision to deal him. And then you're just connecting dots you think are logical, but are really no evidence at all. They certainly are no different than someone saying "We said we'd do this......we didn't do it....we did this instead....therefore we were never in on any of the big FAs" The argument is the EXACT SAME. Your normally sane, balanced takes are taking a real hit with this near pathological need to defend the FO no matter what.

Pathology is not your forte. It is not defending the front office, it is pointing out the flaws in what you post.

I don't doubt that they were resigned because they were valuable. But I also have no doubt that every short-term deal is negotiated with full knowledge on both sides of the table that a trade is significantly more likely because of the contract length. Again, this isn't that radical or difficult.

Pathology is not your forte. It is not defending the front office, it is pointing out the flaws in what you post

[TheLeviathan]

Pathology is not your forte. It is not defending the front office, it is pointing out the flaws in what you post

 

If it's anything like your "evidence" my flaws can rest easy.

 

I don't think mine is a controversial position at all. I'm not bad-mouthing Ryan's abilities or calling for his head. I'm not calling the offseason a failure. I'm merely suggesting that what Ryan said pre-offseason is not merely fodder for naive souls who wish to believe the best. Many die-hard Twins fans believed his words were a genuine attempt to communicate expectations. His feet should be held to that fire, whatever reason there may be for the failure to live up to them.