Twins/Tigers Players Vote to Postpone Tonight's Game

[Squirrel]

And if anyone actually wants to watch a game and comment on the game and commune with others watching the game ... the game thread is up and running here:

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/40260-double-header-game-thread-twins-tigers-1210pm-cdt-8282020ad/

 

 

EDIT:  oops ... rain delay  

[MMMordabito]

I have a suggestion for the next player/team boycott over police actions and this can apply to all leagues. I work for a company that has a significant sales force. Often the corporate folks will disparage the sales people out in the field - why can't they sell while the sales people would say why can't the corporate folks support us better. We have a ride with the rep option so that both sides can get a better understanding what the other does. My suggestion would be for the next boycott shut down all all games for a day and the players, managers, owners take a shift with a police officer in their area. This way each side will get a better understanding of what the other goes through. It is called building bridges as opposed to lobbing grenades. We have seen enough tweets and speeches on this topic to know it is an issue how about some action.

Thank you for actually suggesting something that can move things forward. All we're hearing are the same cliches: "We need change", "We need to have tough conversations", "Let's throw money at it". We've been hearing those empty statements for years, and nothing gets done. The Phillies, for example, could have used their big bad platform to point to the legislation in Pennsylvania that could completely gut their arbitration process, but, no, it's just the same old "We stand in solidarity". "Look at us, we, like, rescheduled a game. Like, we totally, like, helped those people."

[LVTwinsfan]

And if anyone actually wants to watch a game and comment on the game and commune with others watching the game ... the game thread is up and running here:

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/40260-double-header-game-thread-twins-tigers-1210pm-cdt-8282020ad/

 

 

EDIT: oops ... rain delay

yeah, looks like a triple header tomorrow

[LVTwinsfan]

I don’t really care either way about 1 game. Seriously this season is so screwed up anyway. it’s not really a thing. My wife, however is pissed. She’s a big hockey fan and she swears she won’t watch another game. And Vegas is the #1 seed in the West. I respect her opinion, pro sports is over playing their hand. These people are all elitists in my opinion, most people don’t need them to tell them what they should care about. I know I dont.

[mikelink45]

Why the desire to punish the players - listen to the message - that is what counts. Who do you want to have the money?  The owners?  By not punishing the players the teams can express support and that is essential.

[chpettit19]

 

I don’t really care either way about 1 game. Seriously this season is so screwed up anyway. it’s not really a thing. My wife, however is pissed. She’s a big hockey fan and she swears she won’t watch another game. And Vegas is the #1 seed in the West. I respect her opinion, pro sports is over playing their hand. These people are all elitists in my opinion, most people don’t need them to tell them what they should care about. I know I dont.

Why does the profession of anyone speaking about something that matters to them matter? I have no idea what you do for a living and you don't know what I do, but I don't think you'd say I should keep my opinions to myself because of the career path I've gone down. 

They are aware they'll lose fans over this. Nascar knew they'd lose fans over the confederate flag ban. The idea that they should "shut up and dribble," to steal a now semi-famous response to Lebron, is pretty extreme to me. What does the NHL owe your wife or the Twins owe you? (Don't mean that in an aggressive way as I know is often taken over the internet in these kinds of situations) They are a business that runs how they choose to and at different levels finances and PR are considered. They don't have to play the sports we all love. Just like I don't need to do what I do. They're both jobs that our society has allowed to thrive to different degrees based on how people choose to spend their money. 

Do I think any athlete's opinion is better, more informed, or more important than any of ours simply because they're an athlete? Of course not. And I don't think you'd find a significant portion of society that does think that. They have a more broad reaching platform than we do, though. The vast majority of us have some sort of social media. We have friends and family we see in person. Coworkers. Strangers at the gym. We share our opinions and act in certain ways to spread the information we want spread and make stands for what we feel is worthy of taking stands for. Athletes being able to do that in different ways shouldn't be stopped. People disagreeing with them shouldn't be stopped either. 

The American way is elitist. We, as a society, judge people off their finances and material possessions more than anything else. You're rich: you're important, have worked harder than everyone else, and are better than. You're poor: you matter on the fringes, are lazy, and less than. Our society doesn't "bail out" the poor because the poor don't matter. We bail out the rich because the rich matter. We're the richest country in the world so we're the best. Trump had our economy in a great place so he was great. Now it's crap so he's crap. America is elitist. 

Athletes having view points that run counter to yours or your wife's doesn't mean they shouldn't speak to them or stand up for them. You disagreeing with them can be handled however you see fit. To turn athletes taking a stand on something into "telling us what we should care about" is on you, not them. They're using their platform the same way you're using Twins Daily as a platform. I don't think it'd be appropriate for anyone to tell you not to tell them what to care about because they disagree with a post on here (on this subject or a bullpen decision or whatever). No athlete owes any of us their performance. They are not here to follow our demands. We all pay each other's salaries in many different ways. It feels more direct with athletes because we pay for a ticket and watch them play, but that's how everything in America works. You pay for certain items and I get paid to make sure you get them. I spend money somewhere and you get paid to make sure I get whatever I paid for. 

[twinbythebay]

 

I don’t really care either way about 1 game. Seriously this season is so screwed up anyway. it’s not really a thing. My wife, however is pissed. She’s a big hockey fan and she swears she won’t watch another game. And Vegas is the #1 seed in the West. I respect her opinion, pro sports is over playing their hand. These people are all elitists in my opinion, most people don’t need them to tell them what they should care about. I know I dont.

Here's the thing... You don't have to listen to these athletes' opinions at all if you don't want to! If you disagree with kneeling during the nation, maybe wait until the game starts before tuning in. If you don't want to hear the players' opinions on any politics, then maybe don't read or watch what they have to say. Everybody is entitled to their opinions, athletes included, and nobody is forcing you to consider or even listen to their opinions.

[T_J]

I've read/skimmed through six pages of comments and WHOOOOO! Here are my $0.02:

 

1. I think we're confusing "consequences" with "punishment"

 

2. Just because someone's actions aren't receiving the consequences you want doesn't mean their actions aren't legitimate

There is zero confusion with me on what consequences means. My point is the that the choice not to play is completely empty. It self serving and virtue singling.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

There is zero confusion with me on what consequences means. My point is the that the choice not to play is completely empty. It self serving and virtue singling.

We keep running in circles about this but why is bringing awareness to something empty? Why is that worth nothing in your eyes and "virtue signaling"?

 

I'd really like to hear the answer to this because this string of conversation is frustrating me quite a bit. It feels like there's a subset of posters who feel any gesture that doesn't fit within their predetermined guidelines of what it means to oppose something is deemed "worthless" and "empty".

[T_J]

Those who should initiate the first step towards a resolution....are not.

 

It surprises me that the mayors, city councils, the police, protester leaders, BLM, Civil Rights leaders, Governors, the local business owners, etc.....in other words - all the stake holders.....have not tried to initiate any talks. It's a national issue...how about the President?? Disappointing.

 

The least it would do is expose the violent participants on both sides. Simple requests for discussion....and a little "beer summit" as Obama called them.....would raise some unity and civility...for awhile. We could at least see who comes to the table.....and hear some specific solutions.

 

Taking a day off from baseball is a nice nod to the cause.....but nothing more. Not that it has to stop there.

 

By contrast --- We are currently in talks with the Taliban for God Sake!!!! Why not engage in "peace talks" with our own citizens??

 

What is wrong with us?

My opinion on whats wrong with us...

 

In the beginning we had actual enemies. We had the British. After them it became the Spanish/Mexico. We fought ourselves when those threats dimmed. We picked back up to fight the Spanish again for really selective reasons. We found another threat to unite us in Germany twice. We had the commies after for decades to keep us in fear. We moved on to fear from the middle east.

 

We basically founded and have lived in fear of foreign invasion since the beginning. We've now defeated every that has a legitimate threat to us so now we're turning on ourselves.

 

It's really sad that it seems like we can't get leaders from organizations to sit down and talk things through. Figure out a plan and make things better. Long and off topic...

[LVTwinsfan]

We keep running in circles about this but why is bringing awareness to something empty? Why is that worth nothing in your eyes and "virtue signaling"?

 

I'd really like to hear the answer to this because this string of conversation is frustrating me quite a bit. It feels like there's a subset of posters who feel any gesture that doesn't fit within their predetermined guidelines of what it means to oppose something is deemed "worthless" and "empty".

Is there anyone who is not aware? A poster pointed this out to me a little bit ago. Maybe they just did it for themselves, and that’s okay too.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Is there anyone who is not aware? A poster pointed this out to me a little bit ago. Maybe they just did it for themselves, and that’s okay too.

Awareness isn’t only about knowing something exists. It’s about people using their platforms, whether that be the dinner table or millions of Twitter followers, to say “I believe in this thing and this is why I believe in it.” Athletes across the country have been doing this in a myriad of ways for the past 48 hours.

 

Setting parameters on how people speak out and in what form is not productive and only detracts from the conversation at hand.

[shortround81]

 

There is zero confusion with me on what consequences means. My point is the that the choice not to play is completely empty. It self serving and virtue singling.

 

Yeah, I'd like to hear an answer too.

 

At the risk of putting words into your mouth:

 

Is it because sitting out a game didn't eradicate racism, so it's an empty gesture?

 

A majority to 100% of the team thought, "Hey, if I raise my hand and agree on sitting this game out, that will show fans how 'woke' I am?"? 

 

Is that what you're saying?

[chpettit19]

 

There is zero confusion with me on what consequences means. My point is the that the choice not to play is completely empty. It self serving and virtue singling.

If the point of them not playing is to create conversation they have already succeeded as we are all here talking about it. The idea that they need to have some sort of negative impact on their own lives to help create change is nonsensical. If they canceled the season and donated their paychecks for the next 7 seasons to social causes would that make you feel better? Would that make anyone suddenly say "oh man, they're right! Now I see that police brutality is a problem and there are inequalities in our country. I will also join the fight to fix these problems."? The answer is no. It wouldn't. Is their postponing 1 game some great, grand gesture of self sacrifice? Of course not. Does that mean it's not effective and incredibly meaningful to many of them? No. Do 100% of players agree with the idea that police brutality, inequalities, etc. are a problem that the postponement is supposed to highlight and further conversation about? No. Were there likely dissenting voices in every clubhouse in baseball? Yes. Did they have conversations and agree that postponing wasn't some terrible tragedy worth stopping once they saw how important it was to their teammates? Apparently. 

The idea that there needs to be negative consequences (thus the differentiation between consequence and punishment) to make this action meaningful is misguided. The consequences of their actions are people are talking about it. The conversation has been progressed and people who wouldn't have shared their opinions with others now have. There were no punishments for the players. And I don't see how that makes any difference as it wouldn't have effected the consequences in any meaningful way.

[TFRazor]

 

The idea that they should "shut up and dribble," to steal a now semi-famous response to Lebron, is pretty extreme to me.

 

He was pretty quick to "shut up and dribble" when China told him too. In the end, as always, money talks. Someone like Lebron can say things like he's scared to walk the streets of America, but the minute someone starts talking about human rights elsewhere, he then has a problem holding to the same values. It's the hypocrisy of people like Lebron or Kaepernick that tend to cause people to view their statements as suspect.
 

[chpettit19]

 

He was pretty quick to "shut up and dribble" when China told him too.
 

No he wasn't. He spoke on China and was pretty roundly destroyed for it. Providing a prime example that people don't take athlete's opinions as some earth shattering piece of knowledge.

[TFRazor]

 

No he wasn't. He spoke on China and was pretty roundly destroyed for it. Providing a prime example that people don't take athlete's opinions as some earth shattering piece of knowledge.

Oh I must've missed him coming out since and denouncing China's combating the Hong Kong democracy movement, their putting Uighur muslims in concentration camps, and their real lack of any respect for human rights. Could you link me where he's done that? All I remember from that situation was the NBA forcing Morey to apologize. I'm sure it's not because of $$$$ or anything.

[LVTwinsfan]

No he wasn't. He spoke on China and was pretty roundly destroyed for it. Providing a prime example that people don't take athlete's opinions as some earth shattering piece of knowledge.

He spoke on China? What exactly did he say except he wasn’t informed enough to speak on China? Did he get informed and give a real answer? Because I haven’t seen that

[T_J]

We keep running in circles about this but why is bringing awareness to something empty? Why is that worth nothing in your eyes and "virtue signaling"?

 

I'd really like to hear the answer to this because this string of conversation is frustrating me quite a bit. It feels like there's a subset of posters who feel any gesture that doesn't fit within their predetermined guidelines of what it means to oppose something is deemed "worthless" and "empty".

It's not worthless, it has value. Most actions have value. Even the action of inaction has value.

The thing is, to me and through my eyes, their choice not to play is empty because it seems to be only about trying to look good. Nothing about trying to do good.

Side note, philosophically, I don't believe in good or bad.

I'm a guy that wants changes made. I've been trying to stay away from political lines here during this conversation but I'll show some here.

I have been an advocate for demilitorizing for nearly two decades since I left the military. I don't understand why soldiers in war have a more strict rules of engagement than our local police on our own American citizens. I question the constitutionally and our third amendment right to not quarter soldiers with a very military looking unit policing our streets.

That doesn't mean I believe that cops are racist or ill intentioned though. It sure as hell doesn't mean I want them abolished!

 

In the end, I see choosing not to play as mere pageantry. I don't see it as noble. I see it as trying to look good to the public and only that.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Oh I must've missed him coming out since and denouncing China's combating the Hong Kong democracy movement, their putting Uighur muslims in concentration camps, and their real lack of any respect for human rights. Could you link me where he's done that? All I remember from that situation was the NBA forcing Morey to apologize. I'm sure it's not because of $$$$ or anything.

I’m killing this line of conversation now.

 

This has literally nothing to do with what happened last night in Detroit and is rapidly devolving into whataboutism.

 

Move on, everyone.

[T_J]

Yeah, I'd like to hear an answer too.

 

At the risk of putting words into your mouth:

 

Is it because sitting out a game didn't eradicate racism, so it's an empty gesture?

 

A majority to 100% of the team thought, "Hey, if I raise my hand and agree on sitting this game out, that will show fans how 'woke' I am?"?

 

Is that what you're saying?

Basically yeah. It's just trying to show a level of wokeness

[Brock Beauchamp]

NO POLITICS.

 

Next person that brings politics into this thread gets warning points.

[chpettit19]

 

He spoke on China? What exactly did he say except he wasn’t informed enough to speak on China? Did he get informed and give a real answer? Because I haven’t seen that

He said Morey was either misinformed or not very educated on the China and NBA relationship and that his comments could hurt a lot of people not just financially but physically, emotionally, spiritually. And he got absolutely destroyed for it. But, again, I'm not sure what this has to do with the Twins and Tiger's decision yesterday. I used the "shut up and dribble" line in response to the idea that athletes shouldn't speak on things and you guys have chosen to take it as a stand alone statement and discuss Lebron James and China outside the scope of the conversation that is being had right now.

[LVTwinsfan]

He said Morey was either misinformed or not very educated on the China and NBA relationship and that his comments could hurt a lot of people not just financially but physically, emotionally, spiritually. And he got absolutely destroyed for it. But, again, I'm not sure what this has to do with the Twins and Tiger's decision yesterday. I used the "shut up and dribble" line in response to the idea that athletes shouldn't speak on things and you guys have chosen to take it as a stand alone statement and discuss Lebron James and China outside the scope of the conversation that is being had right now.

Sorry, you opened that can of worms. It’s off topic here, let’s be done with it

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

It's not worthless, it has value. Most actions have value. Even the action of inaction has value.
The thing is, to me and through my eyes, their choice not to play is empty because it seems to be only about trying to look good. Nothing about trying to do good.
Side note, philosophically, I don't believe in good or bad.
I'm a guy that wants changes made. I've been trying to stay away from political lines here during this conversation but I'll show some here.
I have been an advocate for demilitorizing for nearly two decades since I left the military. I don't understand why soldiers in war have a more strict rules of engagement than our local police on our own American citizens. I question the constitutionally and our third amendment right to not quarter soldiers with a very military looking unit policing our streets.
That doesn't mean I believe that cops are racist or ill intentioned though. It sure as hell doesn't mean I want them abolished!

In the end, I see choosing not to play as mere pageantry. I don't see it as noble. I see it as trying to look good to the public and only that.

Fair enough. I disagree with several points here but thank you for explaining in more detail.

 

Also, going forward, having the opinion that it is an empty gesture reads differently than declaring it an empty gesture. The statement "I believe it's an empty gesture" is different enough from "It is an empty gesture" to matter in a conversation. One conveys your opinion, the other reads as fact.

[LVTwinsfan]

I’m glad I’m not a moderator here, a thankless task to be sure. Besides I’d have to keep most of my jokes to myself. And let’s face it, some of this stuff can be downright hilarious.

[chpettit19]

 

It's not worthless, it has value. Most actions have value. Even the action of inaction has value.
The thing is, to me and through my eyes, their choice not to play is empty because it seems to be only about trying to look good. Nothing about trying to do good.
Side note, philosophically, I don't believe in good or bad.
I'm a guy that wants changes made. I've been trying to stay away from political lines here during this conversation but I'll show some here.
I have been an advocate for demilitorizing for nearly two decades since I left the military. I don't understand why soldiers in war have a more strict rules of engagement than our local police on our own American citizens. I question the constitutionally and our third amendment right to not quarter soldiers with a very military looking unit policing our streets.
That doesn't mean I believe that cops are racist or ill intentioned though. It sure as hell doesn't mean I want them abolished!

In the end, I see choosing not to play as mere pageantry. I don't see it as noble. I see it as trying to look good to the public and only that.

I think it's a dangerous road to go down when speaking to the intent of these actions. I think it would be absurd to assume 100% of MLB players even care about the American social strife these postponements are meant to bring attention to. My guess would be that many of the foreign players who are only here to play baseball and don't have a great deal of interaction with the general public outside the field don't care about the subject and are standing with their teammates. The American born players, or players who live here year round and are much more versed in the issues, probably had very intense and heartfelt discussions on the subject. At the end of the day everyone involved decided to stand together. Was it an "empty gesture" because of that? I would say no. Was it empty for some of them? Almost a 100% certainty that there were dozens, if not hundreds, of MLB players (not to mention staff, owners, etc) who didn't agree to postpone because they aren't overly interested or invested in these things, or plainly disagree with the stance the postponements take. But to me you don't need 100% die hard, super invested participation to make the action itself not "empty." Not to mention there are already numerous reports of lots of money being donated by lots of individuals and organizations. Probably some "good PR" moves in there, but those actions also aren't "empty" just because some aren't 100% behind it.

[Thebigalguy]

Great decision. My respect for the Twins has grown. I can admire them on and off the field. I think even crusty Bert Blyleven put it right when he said it's time for teamwork in this country, not division. I'm keeping that remark in mind when I vote. 

[LVTwinsfan]

Great decision. My respect for the Twins has grown. I can admire them on and off the field. I think even crusty Bert Blyleven put it right when he said it's time for teamwork in this country, not division. I'm keeping that remark in mind when I vote.

Bert for president

[twinbythebay]

 

Bert for president

His "California Math" policy won't be too popular among teachers...