Article: Ben Revere Traded to Philly for RHP Vance Worley & Top Pitching Prospect

[DaveW]

Waited to respond to think a bit: Impossible not to like this trade, but mostly because I don't see much long term value in Ben Revere, and there are potentially superior replacement on the near term horizon. There are, however, significant warts on both returning pitchers. Worley needs to prove he's healthy, and those calling May a "top 100 prospect" are probably going to be disappointed when 2013 lists come out and he's not on them.

 

Still and all, impossible not to like this trade. Revere for Worley was probably fair, so adding May is gravy, and lord knows the Twins need pitching at every level of the organization. May adds to the possibilities, and with a big arm to boot.

 

Good take. No way Mays makes top 100's, my guess is he's in the 150-200 range. Sickels gut reactions was to give him a B- grade, that'd put him in the 9th-12th range for the Twins.

 

MAY is already #58 in scouting book and that is updated throughout the year.

[DaveW]

The big failure in Philly last year was their bad offense and injuries.

 

If you say so, man, but you got me interested if I'd looked at the numbers wrong:

 

Phillies 2011:

runs scored = 713

runs allowed = 529

 

Phillies 2012:

runs scored = 684

runs allowed = 680

 

Looks like a breakdown on defense to me. And if the problem on defense was injuries to starting pitchers, well *we just traded for the guy who replaced those injured starters*. That doesn't fill me with confidence.

 

This trade makes both teams better for 2013. And the Twins much better for 2014+

 

I don't see how this trade makes the Twins any better in 2013, if you assume Hicks isn't going to play because he's not ready. If Hicks is ready, then it's addition by subtraction, but that there's an argument rather than widespread consensus that this is his year (as there was when the Twins dealt Pierzynski) suggests to me that the 'Twins are better next year with this trade' is arguable. Add in the Span trade, and the Twins are clearly not better on offense than they were last year, and offense was about the only thing they did well -- in spots. I won't argue with you about 2014+, because I agree that long-term, restocking the farm system with pitching is a good thing and should, with luck, pay off.

 

I do know the trades have had one concrete impact already -- one season ticket holder I know is not renewing her tickets for next year. So you'll probably have an easier time scoring good seats to watch the 2013 Twins, better or worse.

Have you seen what the Phillies current offense is/was? They traded away one of their above average hitters in Pence last season. Other then that they had exactly two guys that had a OPS+ higher then 100. Their best hitter Ruiz is sure to regress back to earth this year as well. The Phillies needed offense. They still have Hamels+Halladay+Lee. Their SP is fine.

 

Lastly, any fan that gets rid of their season tickets because the Twins traded Ben Revere is probably a fan that would get rid of their season tickets for a million different stupid reasons.

[Riverbrian]

Who knows if we are better in 2013... I'd say yes at this moment because of Worley alone but who knows.

 

I have a different view on things. (everyone says Duh)... Anyway... I have a different view on things... The Starting pitching to me is the big dense heavy object in the Twins Galaxy that everything ends up rotating around. Just sucked in by the gravity of it...

 

I think taking two steps back on offense to gain one step forward on the mound... Is an overall step forward for the team. We still have offensive pieces in place... but if the rotation improves... You got a chance to break out of that orbit and give your team a chance to show what they are made of. Any Offense would be sucked into the black hole of the 2012 rotation.

 

The team has to balance first... even if balance means a lesser offense to get down to the pitching level. (that sentence will be tough for me to explain if you don't get or agree with what I'm saying).

 

I hope Terry Ryan isn't done... I assume he isn't... I think 2013 is better right now as we stand and hope it gets even better.

 

Disclaimer... I'm not making the call for a title... I'm saying I feel a little improvement and a step in the right direction.

[Jim Crikket]

Lastly, any fan that gets rid of their season tickets because the Twins traded Ben Revere is probably a fan that would get rid of their season tickets for a million different stupid reasons.

 

Actually, I'd say that any fan who would drop season tickets because the Twins traded Revere really hadn't been paying enough attention to this point. There have been, and remain, a fair sized list of really legitimate reasons to drop your season tickets for 2013, but this trade shouldn't be anywhere on that list.

[dwintheiser]

 

First, the Twins and Phillies are in vastly different places. The Phils were a .500 team who believe they should be much better than that. Just because they see Worley as expendable doesn't mean he can't be a considerable help to the Twins, who lost a bazillion games the past 2 seasons and would probably be pretty satisfied getting back to .500.

 

Absolutely agree -- the Phillies won over 100 games in 2011 and still have most of those players, so I'm sure they think they're still competitive. On the other hand, it's hard to look at their starting lineup and not see that they're on the clock -- Pence and Mayberry were the only semi-regulars under 30, and Pence turns 30 next year. If they don't pull the trigger real soon, they probably lose their opportunity for another championship before the Halladay/Howard/Rollins era ends. So definitely the Twins and Phillies could value both Worley and Revere differently based on where they're at.

 

I also think the Twins should be at the point where worrying about when they start a player's service time clock just isn't a big factor. I'm not sure Hicks will be ready to play Big League baseball. If he's not, he should go to Rochester. But if an honest evaluation determines that he either IS ready or will benefit more by playing every day in Minn than in Rochester, that's what he should do... regardless of what it means for his service time.

 

The Twins should already know if Hicks is ready for 2013 -- three weeks in spring shouldn't change that evaluation. But if you haven't noticed, the era of 'we're not going to worry about payroll' ended a couple of months after Target Field opened. In that sense, it would be dumb for the Twins to hurry Hicks and get only three good seasons out of five when they could season him and get four good seasons out of six. On the other hand, five good seasons out of five is better than four good seasons out of six, so if the decision has already been made (and you could argue that trading two CFs in a week is a pretty strong indication of a decision), then go for it.

[jokin]

Who knows if we are better in 2013... I'd say yes at this moment because of Worley alone but who knows.

 

I have a different view on things. (everyone says Duh)... Anyway... I have a different view on things... The Starting pitching to me is the big dense heavy object in the Twins Galaxy that everything ends up rotating around. Just sucked in by the gravity of it...

 

I think taking two steps back on offense to gain one step forward on the mound... Is an overall step forward for the team. We still have offensive pieces in place... but if the rotation improves... You got a chance to break out of that orbit and give your team a chance to show what they are made of. Any Offense would be sucked into the black hole of the 2012 rotation.

 

The team has to balance first... even if balance means a lesser offense to get down to the pitching level. (that sentence will be tough for me to explain if you don't get or agree with what I'm saying).

 

I hope Terry Ryan isn't done... I assume he isn't... I think 2013 is better right now as we stand and hope it gets even better.

 

Disclaimer... I'm not making the call for a title... I'm saying I feel a little improvement and a step in the right direction.

 

Reading this post, I'm not clear how adding just Vance Worley/subtracting your lead-off batting CFer w/ no obvous replacement- and- the premeire defensive RF- makes this team better. One additional mid-back-rotation starter stabilizes and balances the team but one day a week

[DAM DC Twins Fans]

A dissenting voice--dont like this trade...

 

Worley is a decent pitcher--maybe a number 3--will be number 2 on Twins--but wont be enough to get us to 500. The other pitcher (May) had an ERA approaching 5 in AA ball. No matter what the official prospect list says--he is not a top prospect...bottom line we didnt get enough for Revere.

 

We now have holes in CF and middle IF--yes maybe Hicks or Benson can fill CF hole, maybe not. With Willingham, Doumit, and/or Parmalee in OF, CF is going to need to be a track star to get all the balls...our pitchers are gonna give up runs. with this OF.

 

2014 and forward may work IF Hicks does the job...

[PseudoSABR]

The distance between Worley and PJ Waters (or whomever he's replacing in the rotation) is greater than the distance between Revere and Mastroianni/Benson/Hicks. Our pitching is that gawdawful.

 

Worley >>>>> Waters ; Revere >> Mastro

 

This trade makes the Twins better in 2013 and beyond.

[PseudoSABR]

No matter what the official prospect list says--he is not a top prospect

Can't argue with that logic.

[jokin]

The distance between Worley and PJ Waters (or whomever he's replacing in the rotation) is greater than the distance between Revere and Mastroianni/Benson/Hicks. Our pitching is that gawdawful.

 

Worley >>>>> Waters ; Revere >> Mastro

 

This trade makes the Twins better in 2013 and beyond.

 

Unfortunately, you have to factor the trade into the totality of all the moves thus far, the loss of Span, plus Revere, is crushing to the top of the lineup and to the OF defense. Again, Worley pitches one in five games, Span and Revere played virtually every day of the week.

[LaBombo]

A dissenting voice--dont like this trade...

 

Worley is a decent pitcher--maybe a number 3--will be number 2 on Twins--but wont be enough to get us to 500. The other pitcher (May) had an ERA approaching 5 in AA ball. No matter what the official prospect list says--he is not a top prospect...bottom line we didnt get enough for Revere.

 

They lost almost 200 games the past two seasons and play in the same division as a defending AL champ whose core players are all in their prime. I could care less about the Twins making it to .500 in 2013, other than how it affects intangibles like signing free agents who want to play for a winner. And give the Twins' inability or reluctance to sign big ticket free agents, I'm not losing any sleep over that.

[PseudoSABR]

The distance between Worley and PJ Waters (or whomever he's replacing in the rotation) is greater than the distance between Revere and Mastroianni/Benson/Hicks. Our pitching is that gawdawful.

 

Worley >>>>> Waters ; Revere >> Mastro

 

This trade makes the Twins better in 2013 and beyond.

 

Unfortunately, you have to factor the trade into the totality of all the moves thus far, the loss of Span, plus Revere, is crushing to the top of the lineup and to the OF defense. Again, Worley pitches one in five games, Span and Revere played virtually every day of the week.

Well if we are factoring the Span trade, we'll have to factor in the remaining moves too, before we can make a determination about our competitiveness in 2013.

 

In short, trading Revere for Worley+ makes the Twins better in 2013, and that seemed to be the current argument.

[Mike Sixel]

Number three pitchers are now just "decent"? And the Twins only surplus, besides money, is outfielders. How would people that do jot like this trade suggest the Twins get better?

[Shane Wahl]

What a steal!!!!!!!!

[LaBombo]

The distance between Worley and PJ Waters (or whomever he's replacing in the rotation) is greater than the distance between Revere and Mastroianni/Benson/Hicks. Our pitching is that gawdawful.

 

Worley >>>>> Waters ; Revere >> Mastro

 

This trade makes the Twins better in 2013 and beyond.

 

Unfortunately, you have to factor the trade into the totality of all the moves thus far, the loss of Span, plus Revere, is crushing to the top of the lineup and to the OF defense. Again, Worley pitches one in five games, Span and Revere played virtually every day of the week.

 

And when he pitches, Worley, like any starter, has about as much power to affect the outcome of the game as the other 9 guys combined. Revere was a fine ballplayer, but any organization that considers the loss of a .330-ish OBP from the top of a lineup "crushing" isn't going anywhere anyway. Given that the Twins entered the offseason with a 2013 rotation with only one certain member, and one with only one year in the majors to boot, it seems to me like they've had their doubts about contending in 2013 before the winter meetings even started.

 

A quick and dirty WAR comparison says Revere/Deduno = Mastro/Worley in 2012, with Mastro playing part time and Worley missing a quarter of the season. I think they have a good chance to equal or exceed what Revere and Deduno might have done/ will do for the Twins in 2013.

[Shane Wahl]

My excitement is palpable.

 

Literally. I think I just crapped myself.

 

I am not going to go through the comments. I will just second this and move on!

[Riverbrian]

Who knows if we are better in 2013... I'd say yes at this moment because of Worley alone but who knows.

 

I have a different view on things. (everyone says Duh)... Anyway... I have a different view on things... The Starting pitching to me is the big dense heavy object in the Twins Galaxy that everything ends up rotating around. Just sucked in by the gravity of it...

 

I think taking two steps back on offense to gain one step forward on the mound... Is an overall step forward for the team. We still have offensive pieces in place... but if the rotation improves... You got a chance to break out of that orbit and give your team a chance to show what they are made of. Any Offense would be sucked into the black hole of the 2012 rotation.

 

The team has to balance first... even if balance means a lesser offense to get down to the pitching level. (that sentence will be tough for me to explain if you don't get or agree with what I'm saying).

 

I hope Terry Ryan isn't done... I assume he isn't... I think 2013 is better right now as we stand and hope it gets even better.

 

Disclaimer... I'm not making the call for a title... I'm saying I feel a little improvement and a step in the right direction.

 

Reading this post, I'm not clear how adding just Vance Worley/subtracting your lead-off batting CFer w/ no obvous replacement- and- the premeire defensive RF- makes this team better. One additional mid-back-rotation starter stabilizes and balances the team but one day a week

 

Like I said... it would be tough for me to explain.

 

Maybe this way... Let's say the Twins went out and were just given... Tulowitski, Cano, Longoria and Hamilton. Free pick ups for the Twins...

 

It would be easy to say that the Twins would be an improved team. No doubt... Or would they... The Twins are out of balance. Those bats would be explosive but the Pitching just trumps it. We may have increased talent but have little to show for it.

 

On the other side... If the Twins just simply added some arms that can keep the huge numbers off the board. Now you got a ball game and you can start to see what kind of team you have. Even if you lose a couple of players on the offensive side. A pitching staff can give you an opportunity. It's better balance in my opinion.

 

Like I said... It's hard to explain and I'm sure that some dandruff is falling from the head scratching.

 

How bout this way... I know Worley is just one guy... There is more work to be done on the mound but each improvement in the pitching staff is an improvement overall because the Pitching was so far down and you really can't improve until the pitching catches up and it has a lot of catching up to do... Losing offense will not hurt at all because it was going to hurt anyway until the pitching improves.

 

You gotta balance things out to find out what you have on either side.

 

Just theories of mine. I wish I could express this one better.

[Kwak]

I think you posters are missing the major result of the trade: People are excited! They care! Fans are now believing that the Twins are moving toward building a consistent winner--and improving the team for 2013. The off-season isn't over--there will be a free agent pitcher signed who will be an improvement. Right now it's back-and-forth between player-agents and Twins/other teams. Face it they aren't calling the Twins up looking for an offer hoping to get one from the Twins--they are sort of a "last resort" option right now.

Also consider, there are probably three teams that have already pencilled Josh Hamilton in their lineup--at least two of them are wrong! There will be further trade opportunities after the big names sign. Worrying about service time--baloney! The Twins have stated--and demonstrated that they will pay to retain top players. They are well aware that there is still an abundant supply of OF prospects--these guys have to be promoted in order for the younger to also advance--and there is a need put put some sizzle in the lineup! A new arrival--a newly promoted "hot-shot" creates excitement. Promote Hicks, see what he can do--and if he fails, trade him/demote him, and say "Next!". It's past time to be penny wise and pound foolish about constipating the minor leagues. The Twins need to put an exciting product on the field and attract top talent. If every 1st rounder has to spend 5-6 years in the minors, pretty soon no top player will sign and the Twins will have to "pass" on top amateurs in order to find someone who would actually sign with the Twins. UGH!

[Shane Wahl]

May will improve in AA this year and hopefully move to AAA at some point this season.

 

Anyway, Verducci loves it for the Twins. Kevin Millar just started jabbering incoherently about Revere, including that he has a "great arm."

[AllhopeisgoneMNTWINS]

May will improve in AA this year and hopefully move to AAA at some point this season.

 

Anyway, Verducci loves it for the Twins. Kevin Millar just started jabbering incoherently about Revere, including that he has a "great arm."

 

haha wow.....Great arm? Yeah and Kevin Millar was fast....haha

 

Does anybody else ESPN does not report on anything but who they Red Sox or Yanks might go after...like this trade made no news! ESPN's "BREAKING NEWS" - "Yanks offer Youk 1 year 12 million dollar contract"..end of baseball news....god I hate most of ESPN.

[Shane Wahl]

I somehow now have the MLB network and have enjoyed the winter meetings coverage.

[luke829]

I really don't have anything new to contribute, so I'll just go with the flow by agreeing 100%, grat trade.

[Shane Wahl]

Who would have thought that we would be considering who the Twins should sign as a FA fill-in OF this offseason???

[Riverbrian]

Who would have thought that we would be considering who the Twins should sign as a FA fill-in OF this offseason???

 

I'm ready for someone to provide a list because I don't feel like researching it myself. Would love to do some imaginary shopping.

[TwinsFanInPhilly]

In October, Sickels came out with his preliminary top 50 Pitching prospects. Meyers was 28 and May was 32. Can't imagine that much has changed since mid Oct? Looks like a top 100 (or close to it) guy to me.

[striker_86]

Fantastic trade, I love it. Keep adding those arms until we have too many

[Alex]

Darin Masroianni is probably the happiest person on the earth about the Twins offseason. I don't see how he doesn't start in CF this year. They may need a #4 OF to back him up because I can't believe they'd call up Hicks to sit. I wonder if a fourth OF could be part of a Morneau trade.

 

I don't think we need to worry about the top of the lineup. Carrol has a better OBP than either and Revereo or Span, while Mastro has good plate discipline and is a more interesting hitter than Revere.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

Good trade. I've been a fan of Worley for some time now, had him on my fantasy team last season to help out in the K department.

 

The prospect in addition sounds pretty good as well.

 

I just hope the Twins have a plan to keep Worley on this roster long-term, because he has to be entering his 3rd year of his service clock at this point.

 

It's a step in the right direction improving pitching. And the Twins have in 2 consecutive deals sold High in a seller's market. The Bill Smith Era is over.

[FrodaddyG]

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/phillies/Why-Vance-Worley-for-Justin-Upton-might-make-more-sense.html

 

Speculation that those two (Worley-May) plus one piece (Brown or a catcher) was maybe getting them Justin Upton

 

But, but....."Revere is a nice-guy, worthless, low-ceiling nobody"....

It was speculated on a blog, it must have been close to actually happening!!!

[Shane Wahl]

Two words:

 

Grady Sizemore.