Article: In Terry I Trust

[Brock Beauchamp]

Funny I could have sworn you were one of the people saying the Twins should have kept Hardy around, while other people were crying about his .310 OBP.

 

So now its all about OBP? Did Upton have his warts this year? no doubt. But if you look at everything all together with salary taken out of the picture its Upton in a landslide. If you take injuries out of the picture it's still Upton, even with your weighted OPS average Upton outperformed Span over the past 3 years.

 

Are you ****ing kidding me, Dave? I wanted Hardy around because he's not goddamned awful and he plays shortstop (very well). Given the Twins history of middle infielders, who didn't want that? Hardy's OBP is not optimal but when your other options include All-Stars like (fill in name of god-awful Twins middle infielder here), I'd take the corpse of Honus Wagner over those guys.

 

But when given an option, I'll always take the guy who makes less outs over the guy who can't get on base. Over the course of a season, that's the best way to win baseball games. I'm also the guy that constantly repeats "the most important thing in baseball is not getting out".

Carroll had a higher OBP then Span last year, and significantly higher then Hardy (and Hardy as a Twin). Does that mean you prefer Carroll at SS over Hardy?

 

Now you're being intentionally dense just to confuse the argument. I already stated how I felt OBP should be weighted compared to SLG.

[DaveW]

The Puck: To simplify this all a bit again:

 

If Span was a free agent this off-season, would some team give him a 5 year/ 75 mil contract?

 

I will hang up and listen at this point since you obviously aren't going to change your mind on this topic.

[ThePuck]

Funny I could have sworn you were one of the people saying the Twins should have kept Hardy around, while other people were crying about his .310 OBP.

 

So now its all about OBP? Did Upton have his warts this year? no doubt. But if you look at everything all together with salary taken out of the picture its Upton in a landslide. If you take injuries out of the picture it's still Upton, even with your weighted OPS average Upton outperformed Span over the past 3 years.

 

Are you ****ing kidding me, Dave? I wanted Hardy around because he's not goddamned awful and he plays shortstop (very well). Given the Twins history of middle infielders, who didn't want that? Hardy's OBP is not optimal but when your other options include All-Stars like (fill in name of god-awful Twins middle infielder here), I'd take the corpse of Honus Wagner over those guys.

 

But when given an option, I'll always take the guy who makes less outs over the guy who can't get on base. Over the course of a season, that's the best way to win baseball games. I'm also the guy that constantly repeats "the most important thing in baseball is not getting out".

 

Not to mention, even injured, Hardy had the best UZR/150 of any shortstop in his one year with us. Defense.

[DaveW]

Funny I could have sworn you were one of the people saying the Twins should have kept Hardy around, while other people were crying about his .310 OBP.

 

So now its all about OBP? Did Upton have his warts this year? no doubt. But if you look at everything all together with salary taken out of the picture its Upton in a landslide. If you take injuries out of the picture it's still Upton, even with your weighted OPS average Upton outperformed Span over the past 3 years.

 

Are you ****ing kidding me, Dave? I wanted Hardy around because he's not goddamned awful and he plays shortstop (very well). Given the Twins history of middle infielders, who didn't want that? Hardy's OBP is not optimal but when your other options include All-Stars like (fill in name of god-awful Twins middle infielder here), I'd take the corpse of Honus Wagner over those guys.

 

But when given an option, I'll always take the guy who makes less outs over the guy who can't get on base. Over the course of a season, that's the best way to win baseball games. I'm also the guy that constantly repeats "the most important thing in baseball is not getting out".

Carroll had a higher OBP then Span last year, and significantly higher then Hardy (and Hardy as a Twin). Does that mean you prefer Carroll at SS over Hardy?

 

Now you're being intentionally dense just to confuse the argument. I already stated how I felt OBP should be weighted compared to SLG.

You were the one who just said "But when given an option, I'll always take the guy who makes less outs over the guy who can't get on base"

 

JJ Hardy had a .286 OBP last year. Does that mean you will always take Carroll over him?

[ThePuck]

Funny I could have sworn you were one of the people saying the Twins should have kept Hardy around, while other people were crying about his .310 OBP.

 

So now its all about OBP? Did Upton have his warts this year? no doubt. But if you look at everything all together with salary taken out of the picture its Upton in a landslide. If you take injuries out of the picture it's still Upton, even with your weighted OPS average Upton outperformed Span over the past 3 years.

 

Are you ****ing kidding me, Dave? I wanted Hardy around because he's not goddamned awful and he plays shortstop (very well). Given the Twins history of middle infielders, who didn't want that? Hardy's OBP is not optimal but when your other options include All-Stars like (fill in name of god-awful Twins middle infielder here), I'd take the corpse of Honus Wagner over those guys.

 

But when given an option, I'll always take the guy who makes less outs over the guy who can't get on base. Over the course of a season, that's the best way to win baseball games. I'm also the guy that constantly repeats "the most important thing in baseball is not getting out".

Carroll had a higher OBP then Span last year, and significantly higher then Hardy (and Hardy as a Twin). Does that mean you prefer Carroll at SS over Hardy?

 

Well, hmm, him being one of the very best shortstops in baseball has to be factored in. Overall player ability. Not any one stat.

[Brock Beauchamp]

You were the one who just said "But when given an option, I'll always take the guy who makes less outs over the guy who can't get on base"

 

JJ Hardy had a .286 OBP last year. Does that mean you will always take Carroll over him?

 

Seriously. Stop being a prick. You know exactly what I meant by that statement.

 

But yeah, there's a chance I'd take 2012 Carroll over 2012 Hardy. JJ was pretty bad this year.

[ThePuck]

I'm done with this debate. It's been, well, interesting

[DaveW]

You were the one who just said "But when given an option, I'll always take the guy who makes less outs over the guy who can't get on base"

 

JJ Hardy had a .286 OBP last year. Does that mean you will always take Carroll over him?

 

Seriously. Stop being a prick. You know exactly what I meant by that statement.

 

But yeah, there's a chance I'd take 2012 Carroll over 2012 Hardy. JJ was pretty bad this year.

 

Actually I thought I knew what you meant, but now you are saying you would rather have had Carroll last year then Hardy so now I am confused.

Ben Revere had a .333 OBP last year does this mean you would take him over Upton as well moving forward? (honest question)

[DaveW]

I'm done with this debate. It's been, well, interesting

 

I can't help but notice you didn't answer the question:

 

If Span were a free agent this year, would he get a 5/75 contract?

 

If you think he would, then I guess he has at least the same value as Upton, if you think he wouldn't, then I guess he wouldn't have as much value. Yes or no?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Actually I thought I knew what you meant, but now you are saying you would rather have had Carroll last year then Hardy so now I am confused.

Ben Revere had a .333 OBP last year does this mean you would take him over Upton as well moving forward? (honest question)

 

If I knew Carroll would post the numbers he did and Hardy the numbers he did in 2012, there's a small chance I'd take Carroll. A 60 point OBP advantage is a lot but it still might be countered by Hardy's defense. I'd have to look into the numbers more closely. But speaking purely from an offensive perspective, Carroll had the better season by a considerable margin (as weird as that sounds to say).

 

As for Revere vs. Upton, no way. Upton all day. Revere may have posted a .035 higher OBP but Upton slugged a full .100 higher.

[ThePuck]

 

I can't help but notice you didn't answer the question:

 

If Span were a free agent this year, would he get a 5/75 contract?

 

If you think he would, then I guess he has at least the same value as Upton, if you think he wouldn't, then I guess he wouldn't have as much value. Yes or no?

 

Just like I can't help but noticed you avoided this whole post completely :

 

'Oh, you prefer to use UZR...so you prefer to use stats that help your debate and discard those that don't. Even though Fangraph does both stats, only one has merit? UZR doesn't really help you though. Not for the last three years. And Span DOES NOT have a negative DRS over the last three years in CF. He had 20 this year, 9 in 2011 (while only playing half a season, BTW) and a -5 in 2010. That's not a negative, that's a big positive.

 

And don't talk to me about snarky comments...you began our debate saying I didn't know baseball cause you didn't agree with my opinion. Doesn't get much snarkier than that. Or is it only okay when you do it? '

 

Why did you avoid that post, exactly?

 

I also noticed you said you were done with it as well since my mind wasn't gonna be changed...

 

To answer yours, I don't believe Upton deserved anywhere near that contract...and no I don't think Span would get it. But I do believe HRs are overvalued in ALMOST all contracts and defense basically ignored in today's game when contracts are given out. In other words, because a team decided to seriously overpay a guy who doesn't deserve it, doesn't mean that it's a true measure of his value.

[jun]

i don't trust in terry at all. why should anyone? ryan stated in september to the season ticket holders one thing, and then did another. trustworthy? span has first round pedigree, too, and hey, so does levi machael. i'll be holding my breath on that one. on top of it all...... it was rizzo that had coveted span for a long time. terry ryan folded and got taken, and left cards on the table. it turns out that regardless of the contract, as reported today at mlb trade rumors, that rizzo and the nats wanted span more than any of the centerfielders available. ryan made the weak play. there was a takeaway not played, and an additional player to be had that ryan was not player enough to get. washington DID get a proven player ready to help immediately and for several years, and the twins got a hope.

 

Obviously you think he should be able to work miracles. Give TR some time and you will see once again why he is a winner and he has this organization on the right path.

 

 

I would say exactly the opposite!

[DaveW]

and no I don't think Span would get it.

 

ok thanks!

[ThePuck]

and no I don't think Span would get it.

 

ok thanks!

 

That's it huh? Yeah, that's what I figured.

[twinsnorth49]

and no I don't think Span would get it.

 

ok thanks!

 

That's it huh? Yeah, that's what I figured.

 

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sport/sport25.gif

 

You guys had enough yet?

[DaveW]

and no I don't think Span would get it.

 

ok thanks!

 

That's it huh? Yeah, that's what I figured.

 

I already responded to the rest of your questions you asked for the most part, I don't feel like dancing in circles any more with you. You said Span is more valuable (taking money off the table) then Upton, myself and every GM in the league disagree with you.

 

Also, I didn't say you knew nothing about baseball, I said that if you only use one years worth of defensive metric data you were either:

A. Being Disingenuous

B. Knew nothing about baseball.

 

It was an either/or scenario.

[ThePuck]

and no I don't think Span would get it.

 

ok thanks!

 

That's it huh? Yeah, that's what I figured.

 

I already responded to the rest of your questions you asked for the most part, I don't feel like dancing in circles any more with you. You said Span is more valuable (taking money off the table) then Upton, myself and every GM in the league disagree with you.

 

Also, I didn't say you knew nothing about baseball, I said that if you only use one years worth of defensive metric data you were either:

A. Being Disingenuous

B. Knew nothing about baseball.

 

It was an either/or scenario.

 

You responded to:

 

'Oh, you prefer to use UZR...so you prefer to use stats that help your debate and discard those that don't. Even though Fangraph does both stats, only one has merit? UZR doesn't really help you though. Not for the last three years. And Span DOES NOT have a negative DRS over the last three years in CF. He had 20 this year, 9 in 2011 (while only playing half a season, BTW) and a -5 in 2010. That's not a negative, that's a big positive.

 

And don't talk to me about snarky comments...you began our debate saying I didn't know baseball cause you didn't agree with my opinion. Doesn't get much snarkier than that. Or is it only okay when you do it? '

 

Really? You responded to me correcting your false statement about Span having a negative DRS over the last three years and me showing your UZR stats for the last three years didn't help your cause for Upton?

 

And since I've cleared showed I'm not being disingenuous, that only leaves you to believe I don't know baseball. Basically it comes down to you saying if I don't have your opinion, I don't know baseball.

 

But okay, if you say so

[ThePuck]

I'm done with this...unless you wanna keep going round and round Dave...

[DaveW]

and no I don't think Span would get it.

 

ok thanks!

 

That's it huh? Yeah, that's what I figured.

 

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sport/sport25.gif

 

You guys had enough yet?

 

That image is accurate, as I am certainly right handed.

[Twins Twerp]

At! least you guys aren't catty:shoot: :talk028::talk028:

[ThePuck]

and no I don't think Span would get it.

 

ok thanks!

 

That's it huh? Yeah, that's what I figured.

 

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sport/sport25.gif

 

You guys had enough yet?

 

That image is accurate, as I am certainly right handed.

 

Ah, you're cute...delusional, but cute

[Fire Dan Gladden]

I'm done with this debate. It's been, well, interesting

 

I can't help but notice you didn't answer the question:

 

If Span were a free agent this year, would he get a 5/75 contract?

 

If you think he would, then I guess he has at least the same value as Upton, if you think he wouldn't, then I guess he wouldn't have as much value. Yes or no?

 

Not to get into the middle of this mess, but the Span value discussion intrigues me. Lets look at a comparison:

[TABLE=width: 445]

[TD=class: xl65, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent][/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]G[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]AB[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]R[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]H[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]2B[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]3B[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]HR[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]RBI[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]SB[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]CS[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]BB[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]SO[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]BA[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]OBP[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]SLG[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]OPS[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]OPS+[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent]Player A[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]136[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]488[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]69[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]120[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]26[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]0[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]29[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]98[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]4[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]1[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]56[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]150[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].246[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].332[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].477[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].810[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]121[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent]Player B[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]146[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]573[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]79[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]141[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]29[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]3[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]28[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]78[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]31[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]6[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]45[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]169[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].246[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].298[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].454[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].752[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]109[/TD]

[/TABLE]

 

Offensively they are not tremendously different. Player B steals more bases. Player A provides more power. Both are FA, Player A is 32 and a corner OF, Player B is 27 and a CF.

 

Player A is Josh Willingham - 2011

Player B is BJ Upton - 2012

 

While there will be some value difference based on age and position, is there really a 3/$21 vs 5/$75 difference? I don't think so.

 

Name recognition can be a huge factor. Nobody comes to see unassuming Denard Span, everybody wants to see BJ Upton, who has been hyped and effectively overrated from the moment he was brought up.

 

I don't think Denard Span would get a 5/$75 deal as a FA, but I also don't think Upton's value is that much higher than Span's either. Just my 2 cents.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Not to get into the middle of this mess, but the Span value discussion intrigues me. Lets look at a comparison:

[TABLE=width: 445]

[TD=class: xl65, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent][/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]G[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]AB[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]R[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]H[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]2B[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]3B[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]HR[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]RBI[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]SB[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]CS[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]BB[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]SO[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]BA[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]OBP[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]SLG[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]OPS[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]OPS+[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent]Player A[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]136[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]488[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]69[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]120[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]26[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]0[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]29[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]98[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]4[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]1[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]56[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]150[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].246[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].332[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].477[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].810[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]121[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent]Player B[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]146[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]573[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]79[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]141[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]29[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]3[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]28[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]78[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]31[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]6[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]45[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]169[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].246[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].298[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].454[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].752[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]109[/TD]

[/TABLE]

 

Offensively they are not tremendously different. Player B steals more bases. Player A provides more power. Both are FA, Player A is 32 and a corner OF, Player B is 27 and a CF.

 

Player A is Josh Willingham - 2011

Player B is BJ Upton - 2012

 

While there will be some value difference based on age and position, is there really a 3/$21 vs 5/$75 difference? I don't think so.

 

Name recognition can be a huge factor. Nobody comes to see unassuming Denard Span, everybody wants to see BJ Upton, who has been hyped and effectively overrated from the moment he was brought up.

 

I don't think Denard Span would get a 5/$75 deal as a FA, but I also don't think Upton's value is that much higher than Span's either. Just my 2 cents.

 

Great comparison. Smart people go after the Denard Spans and Josh Willinghams of the world. They're going to bring a lot of value to the team for not a lot of cash. Not-as-smart people do things like give BJ Upton $75m. Not that I think the Braves are dumb; they're one of the smarter organizations in baseball... but that doesn't mean they can't do dumb things.

[gunnarthor]

Well, I think this thread helped us learn a lot about certain posters, if nothing else. I am stunned that someone on the internet failed to apologize for his comments and, in spite of evidence to the contrary, dug in and purposefully ignored/misunderstood other posters to do so. Absolutely stunned.

[70charger]

Well, I think this thread helped us learn a lot about certain posters, if nothing else. I am stunned that someone on the internet failed to apologize for his comments and, in spite of evidence to the contrary, dug in and purposefully ignored/misunderstood other posters to do so. Absolutely stunned.

 

I am shocked, shocked! to find that gambling is going on in here.

 

Your winnings, sir.

[twinsnorth49]

Well, I think this thread helped us learn a lot about certain posters, if nothing else. I am stunned that someone on the internet failed to apologize for his comments and, in spite of evidence to the contrary, dug in and purposefully ignored/misunderstood other posters to do so. Absolutely stunned.

 

Agreed, I'm completely disillusioned, usually things are much more impartial around here.

[DaveW]

 

Not to get into the middle of this mess, but the Span value discussion intrigues me. Lets look at a comparison:

[TABLE=width: 445]

[TD=class: xl65, width: 64, bgcolor: transparent][/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]G[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]AB[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]R[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]H[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]2B[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]3B[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]HR[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]RBI[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]SB[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]CS[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]BB[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]SO[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]BA[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]OBP[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]SLG[/TD]

[TD=class: xl68, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]OPS[/TD]

[TD=class: xl67, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]OPS+[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent]Player A[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]136[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]488[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]69[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]120[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]26[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]0[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]29[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]98[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]4[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]1[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]56[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]150[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].246[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].332[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].477[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].810[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]121[/TD]

[TD=class: xl65, bgcolor: transparent]Player B[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]146[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]573[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]79[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]141[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]29[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]3[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]28[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]78[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]31[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]6[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]45[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 28, bgcolor: transparent]169[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].246[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].298[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].454[/TD]

[TD=class: xl70, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent].752[/TD]

[TD=class: xl66, width: 39, bgcolor: transparent]109[/TD]

[/TABLE]

 

Offensively they are not tremendously different. Player B steals more bases. Player A provides more power. Both are FA, Player A is 32 and a corner OF, Player B is 27 and a CF.

 

Player A is Josh Willingham - 2011

Player B is BJ Upton - 2012

 

While there will be some value difference based on age and position, is there really a 3/$21 vs 5/$75 difference? I don't think so.

 

Name recognition can be a huge factor. Nobody comes to see unassuming Denard Span, everybody wants to see BJ Upton, who has been hyped and effectively overrated from the moment he was brought up.

 

I don't think Denard Span would get a 5/$75 deal as a FA, but I also don't think Upton's value is that much higher than Span's either. Just my 2 cents.

 

Great comparison. Smart people go after the Denard Spans and Josh Willinghams of the world. They're going to bring a lot of value to the team for not a lot of cash. Not-as-smart people do things like give BJ Upton $75m. Not that I think the Braves are dumb; they're one of the smarter organizations in baseball... but that doesn't mean they can't do dumb things.

 

I agree with everything you said, as I mentioned, for the money Span is the man to go with on this.

[DaveW]

Well, I think this thread helped us learn a lot about certain posters, if nothing else. I am stunned that someone on the internet failed to apologize for his comments and, in spite of evidence to the contrary, dug in and purposefully ignored/misunderstood other posters to do so. Absolutely stunned.

 

I'd still like to hear how BJ Upton is a better player then Denard Span, especially moving forward. Not a better value, not a better person, a better player. Show me evidence to the contrary and I will tend to agree, I have been posting with a number of these guys for 5+ years, they know I will change my opinion on a player all the time when presented with new evidence/ideas.

[lee_the_twins_fan]

Comparing Josh Willingham's and B.J. Upton's offensive statistics is fine. What about their defensive stats? What else do they bring to the table (experience, knowledge of certain division's pitchers, etc.)

 

I contend that Josh Willingham is more valuable to the Twins than he would be to nearly any other team. He hits his homers along the left field line: Willingham is made for Target Field.

 

Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau are also great hitters – but they are lefties. But their production dropped when they began playing at Target Field – in part because of injuries, but in part because of the field itself. Every field has its quirks, I think the M&M boys are coming back with a huge season in 2013, because their injuries are hopefully behind them, and they're going to take even more advantage of Target Field – not in the same way Willingham does, but they will tweak their game some more yet to take advantage of TF.

 

I know, I know, I'm dreaming. But I see TF becoming less and less a pitcher's field and more of a balanced field between pitchers and hitters.

 

I hope Willingham, Morneau and Mauer will all be around to help the Twins in 2013.

[ThePuck]

Comparing Josh Willingham's and B.J. Upton's offensive statistics is fine. What about their defensive stats? What else do they bring to the table (experience, knowledge of certain division's pitchers, etc.)

 

I contend that Josh Willingham is more valuable to the Twins than he would be to nearly any other team. He hits his homers along the left field line: Willingham is made for target Field.

 

Joe Mauer and Justin Morneau are also great hitters – and they are lefties. But their production dropped when they began playing at Target Field – in part because of injuries, but in part because of the field itself. Every field has its quirks, I think the M&M boys are coming back with a huge season in 2013, because their injuries are hopefully behind them, and they're going to take even more advantage of Target Field – not in the same way Willingham does, but they will tweak their game some more yet to take advantage of TF.

 

I know, I know, I'm dreaming. But I see TF becoming less and less a pitcher's field and more of a balanced field between pitchers and hitters.

 

I hope Willingham, Moorneau and Mauer will all be around to help the Twins in 2013.

 

I agree...but I'd like to point out that according to ESPN park factor information, TF was a hitter's park last year. Ranked 10th. I'd also like to point out that in 2010, Morneau was having an MVP type season before the concussion and had an OPS over .900 at TF.