Is this the offseason to extend Revere?

[Shane Wahl]

At this point, given 2013 is very likely a bust, I would prefer the obvious trade of Justin Morneau for another Meyer type prospect at A/AA level. The Twins could likely just go for a stop gap RF or even a LH platoon with Mastro. That stop gap, if decent enough (not looking up names at the moment), could also be traded for some low level medium prospect at the deadline and that would make room for Hicks and Arcia.

 

I don't like trading Willingham just yet. Next offseason would be ideal.

[ashbury]

I'm patient enough...but we need pitching right? For the future? If Revere and Willingham can get us those pitchers, I don't see any reason to not trade them and bring up Hicks and Arcia. Will they struggle, probably...why not let them struggle when next year is likely lost anyway?

 

You start the free-agency (and arbitration) clock a year, or maybe two, early. While the Twins don't necessarily have to view themselves as bottom feeders, they can't waste the high-talent/low-wage years that the CBA gives them. That, at least to me, is the answer to "why not". You can make the trades you outline, but decent talent for a two-year bridge needs to be found as replacement.

 

That's a fair argument...one could also say nitpicking a player's game to death in the minors or staling him might take away confidence.

 

Yes, it's a balancing act. You can't (and shouldn't) let a player waste productive years in the minors just because it's not his "turn" yet - for one thing you'll find it much more difficult to sign your draftees in years to come. But, if they are not yet productive, i.e. they are brought up and allowed to "struggle", then that side of the argument starts to weigh less, and you have the converse problem of establishing a certain amount of complacency in the clubhouse because 'hey, they don't have someone they can replace me with anyway'.

 

A GMs job is just hard. I keep coming back to that.

[jokin]

We should not extend Ben at this time. The Twins can afford to be patient on this one. It make sense to patient. We should not extend Ben at this time... Maybe next year... Maybe never...

 

Can we stop tearing the kid down now please. He doesn't deserve it.

Nobody is tearing him down. Pointing out that he has zero power, no arm and projects more as a 4th OF isn't tearing him down, it's just reality. Nobody will be more happy then me if he proves me wrong, I just don't see it.

 

There was evidence presented that what we have seen thus far from Revere isn't necessarily a finished product. I just hated seeing a guy who has brought his own brand of positivity to 2 dreadful Twins seasons so ripped-upon by his own fan-base. The fact that there might be some other teams out there with interest confirms that I was at least on the right path.

[ThePuck]

We should not extend Ben at this time. The Twins can afford to be patient on this one. It make sense to patient. We should not extend Ben at this time... Maybe next year... Maybe never...

 

Can we stop tearing the kid down now please. He doesn't deserve it.

Nobody is tearing him down. Pointing out that he has zero power, no arm and projects more as a 4th OF isn't tearing him down, it's just reality. Nobody will be more happy then me if he proves me wrong, I just don't see it.

 

There was evidence presented that what we have seen thus far from Revere isn't necessarily a finished product. I just hated seeing a guy who has brought his own brand of positivity to 2 dreadful Twins seasons so ripped-upon by his own fan-base. The fact that there might be some other teams out there with interest confirms that I was at least on the right path.

 

Right or wrong, and likely wrong, I imagine a lot of the issues people have with Revere probably stem from the team and our announcers drooling over him...basically forcing him down our throats constantly....severely exaggerating his play. Especially his rookie year. One could argue that with so little to be excited over, they had to focus on him, but still, the constant comparisons to Puckett got old. One of my favorites was the poll on which of 5 plays was his best, failing to mention that 3 of those were clearly due to him misplaying the ball off the bat to begin with causing him to make a great play instead of a mostly routine play. His defense got better this year, but he still lack in OB skills, he still lacks an arm...he needs to be much better to deserve the praise he gets.

[jokin]

I'm patient enough...but we need pitching right? For the future? If Revere and Willingham can get us those pitchers, I don't see any reason to not trade them and bring up Hicks and Arcia. Will they struggle, probably...why not let them struggle when next year is likely lost anyway?

 

You start the free-agency (and arbitration) clock a year, or maybe two, early. While the Twins don't necessarily have to view themselves as bottom feeders, they can't waste the high-talent/low-wage years that the CBA gives them. That, at least to me, is the answer to "why not". You can make the trades you outline, but decent talent for a two-year bridge needs to be found as replacement.

 

That's a fair argument...one could also say nitpicking a player's game to death in the minors or staling him might take away confidence.

 

Yes, it's a balancing act. You can't (and shouldn't) let a player waste productive years in the minors just because it's not his "turn" yet - for one thing you'll find it much more difficult to sign your draftees in years to come. But, if they are not yet productive, i.e. they are brought up and allowed to "struggle", then that side of the argument starts to weigh less, and you have the converse problem of establishing a certain amount of complacency is allowed in the players because 'hey, they don't have someone they can replace me with anyway'.

 

A GMs job is just hard. I keep coming back to that.

Point well taken, especially in these parts. Still, the 84-86 kiddie Twins as a model for future success isn't necessarily a bad one for the current GM to emulate. I think you could sell a group of exciting young players to the extended fan-base if they are honestly given the right expectations, not the hemming and hawing propaganda line from St Peter, St Antony and St Ryan. Even now, as Jim Crikket so aptly pointed out, they are using party line subterfuge, all the while going after the Marquis-Plus bargain bin starters to fill out the rotation. It would be refreshing if they would just admit that 2013's going to be a struggle and go from there.

[jokin]

We should not extend Ben at this time. The Twins can afford to be patient on this one. It make sense to patient. We should not extend Ben at this time... Maybe next year... Maybe never...

 

Can we stop tearing the kid down now please. He doesn't deserve it.

Nobody is tearing him down. Pointing out that he has zero power, no arm and projects more as a 4th OF isn't tearing him down, it's just reality. Nobody will be more happy then me if he proves me wrong, I just don't see it.

 

There was evidence presented that what we have seen thus far from Revere isn't necessarily a finished product. I just hated seeing a guy who has brought his own brand of positivity to 2 dreadful Twins seasons so ripped-upon by his own fan-base. The fact that there might be some other teams out there with interest confirms that I was at least on the right path.

 

Right or wrong, and likely wrong, I imagine a lot of the issues people have with Revere probably stem from the team and our announcers drooling over him...basically forcing him down our throats constantly....severely exaggerating his play. Especially his rookie year. One could argue that with so little to be excited over, they had to focus on him, but still, the constant comparisons to Puckett got old. One of my favorites was the poll on which of 5 plays was his best, failing to mention that 3 of those were clearly due to him misplaying the ball off the bat to begin with causing him to make a great play instead of a mostly routine play. His defense got better this year, but he still lack in OB skills, he still lacks an arm...he needs to be much better to deserve the praise he gets.

 

He's likely never going to be close to Puckett, I think even DicknBert would admit to that. Not only did his defense improve this year, he improved at the plate (admittedly not a quantum leap, to be sure), his arm- or at least his approach at getting rid of the ball more quickly and efficiently- did show great improvement this year, did I read that he led the outfielders in assists? That he showed improvement with his given athletic skill set and off-season work habits, hopefully means he can make another jump at improving his categories of deficiency, which you accurately point out. As an example, Carlos Gomez was a far goofier, vastly more undisciplined player as a Twin. Look at Go-Go's progression from age 22 to age 27:

 

OPS #s: .592/.651/.623/.655/.679/.768 FWIW, Fangraphs valued him at $9M last year and $15.8M in 2012

 

Look at Revere ages 23 and 24: OPS .619/.675 And he is an immensely better baserunner than Go-Go- again, FWIW with a grain of salt from Fangraphs, they establish his value in 2011 was $9M and this year it was $15.2M. An optimist would say he's ahead of Gomez at the same point of his career. Who wouldn't be thrilled if he could consistently hit .725-.750 OPS and bring what he brings on the basepaths in the #9 slot in the batting order?

[ThePuck]

You mean did he lead OUR OF in assists? Yes. Two more than Span and Willingham. But heck, enough runners run on you, you're bound to throw a few out :-)

[jokin]

No doubt that the Twins pitching staff gave him more chances, just as every other OF had more chances to demonstrate their abilities, a hearty thankyou is in order to our pitchers for listening verrry closely to their coaches about the importance of pitching to contact.

[ThePuck]

No doubt that the Twins pitching staff gave him more chances, just as every other OF had more chances to demonstrate their abilities, thanks to pitchers for listening to their coaches about the importance of pitching to contact.

 

That's not what I meant. Everyone and their brother attempted to take an extra base on Revere they wouldn't attempt to take on people with real MLB arms...I'm sure you saw that. What I noticed about his arm this year, he throws better with his feet planted...l Like taking one off the wall, turning, and throwing for example, as opposed to charging a ball coming in, getting it, then throwing while in motion.

[jokin]

No doubt that the Twins pitching staff gave him more chances, just as every other OF had more chances to demonstrate their abilities, thanks to pitchers for listening to their coaches about the importance of pitching to contact.

 

That's not what I meant. Everyone and their brother attempted to take an extra base on Revere they wouldn't attempt to take on people with real MLB arms...I'm sure you saw that. What I noticed about his arm this year, he throws better with his feet planted as opposed to getting a running start before throwing. Like taking one off the wall, turning, and throwing.

 

Yup, I saw what you saw, the good, agressive managers had a field day on advancng 1st-3rd. I attribute that mostly to the (proper) decision to keep Span in CF for showcase/future trading value purposes, that would be much less of an issue with Revere in CF or LF. Didn't Revere have a few tag-up put outs, so that going forward and releasing in one smooth motion showed improvement?

[ThePuck]

yeah he did, and that was nice, but he also had quite a few times where the ball was hit to the OF, hopped a few times as he was charging it, and in his haste to make a throw, bobbled the ball. He's improving, but he'll always have a weak arm. Just like Pierre and Damon did through their careers. I'll never forget his rookie year where A.J. Pierzinski scored from 2B, standing up, on a ball hit to short CF as Revere fielded it, threw the ball, and six hopped the ball home.

[Riverbrian]

No doubt that the Twins pitching staff gave him more chances, just as every other OF had more chances to demonstrate their abilities, thanks to pitchers for listening to their coaches about the importance of pitching to contact.

 

That's not what I meant. Everyone and their brother attempted to take an extra base on Revere they wouldn't attempt to take on people with real MLB arms...I'm sure you saw that. What I noticed about his arm this year, he throws better with his feet planted as opposed to getting a running start before throwing. Like taking one off the wall, turning, and throwing.

 

Yup, I saw what you saw, the good, agressive managers had a field day on advancng 1st-3rd. I attribute that mostly to the (proper) decision to keep Span in CF for showcase/future trading value purposes, that would be much less of an issue with Revere in CF or LF. Didn't Revere have a few tag-up put outs, so that going forward and releasing in one smooth motion showed improvement?

 

His arm is weak... No doubt... But I seriously don't know what you guys saw... I watched the majority of games... There were times when the runner went first to third with Revere in RF... And in my opinion... Moments where they may not have attempted that on Francour... But let's not make it sound like it was a first to third party going on. It wasn't...

 

Its the type of statement you make when you know someone has a weak arm but they were not running wild and that is the impression you are leaving.

 

And let's be honest on the other side... He gets to the ball quicker and gets it in quicker... I don't care if a 4th grader is holding the ball in RF... If the ball is in his glove and the runner hasn't rounded second... He ain't going...

 

Serious embellishment going on here... His arm is weak... Got it... No argument... It will cost the Twins a run on occasion... No doubt... He doesn't have the Harper Hose...

 

The problem with these discussions as Puck pointed out. Is that it makes people draw lines in the sand... The pro Revere crowd like me end up losing our objectivity because we end up defending him... the anti or non Revere crowd end up disliking him more and yeah... I think they lose objectivity as well..

 

I don't want to shove Revere down anyone's throat... I shouldnt have to... hes done well... And Im trying to stop... But c'mon... He gave it and I assume he will continue to give it...

 

He was a first round draft pick and he was a 3rd round projection. No organization is going to reach into the 1st round unless he's knocking the ball around the park... And no team is going to reach for a pick unless they see something and think another squad saw something as well... That is why they reach... To get your guy... If Revere was showing no arm and No power he ain't going in the first round. Can we agree on that... I know some people think Terry Ryan and the front office are idiots... They are not that big of idiots... They are not taking a light hitting fast guy projected in the third round in the first... Jerrod Dyson went in the 50th round... That's where the fast guys who can't hit go... 50th round.

 

Was it a first round mistake? If you look back at 2007... There only a few of that class in the majors right now so I'd say no... With hindsight you could claim Frazier... d'Arnaud or Luebke may have been better choices in that slot... But with that same hindsight... 11 teams that drafted before the Twins did... they would be loving Revere instead of the guy they got.

 

You are also looking at a kid... 1st round pick who was not stalled in the minors for a second... Rookie... A... High A... AA... Majors... Advanced like clockwork...

 

He hasn't failed yet... At any level... including the majors... Whatever is thought to be wrong with him by some on this board... It didn't hold him back for a second cuz... here he is.

 

I,m not sure what measuring stick you are using... But a 1st round pick who advanced thru the farm with no stalling has to have value. So I'm pretty confident we have some undervaluing going on but it's clear that opinions are not going to change... So I'm really gonna try to stop now... But Like the Godfather III... Someone is gonna pull me back in.

 

If people talking him up is bugging you... Even if its embellished... Cheer for a different team please... Talking up White Sox players bugs me... I'm a Twins Fan and Revere is good baseball and he's a Twin... Talk him up all you want.

 

And I would not extend him at this time.

[DaveW]

.. But let's not make it sound like it was a first to third party going on. It wasn't...

 

Dude yes the other teams were having a "field party" or whatever sending guys from 1st to third. His arm is terrible as far as baseball is concerned, it's actually borderline embarrassing watching at times how bad it is.

 

That doesn't take away the fact that he has elite range and the ability to play a really strong CF, but to claim his arm isn't one of the worst of any OF in baseball is just flat out wrong. Luckily it will be masked a bit in CF, but still the weakness still remains.

[DaveW]

Who wouldn't be thrilled if he could consistently hit .725-.750 OPS and bring what he brings on the basepaths in the #9 slot in the batting order?

 

I would be thrilled, but it isn't going to happen. Since he has zero power and thus no one will pitch around him, Revere would most likely need to hit around .330 on a regular basis in order to get even a 725 OPS, I just don't see it, unless he miraculously learns how to hit for even mediocre power/pop or someone learns to inciro the hell out of the ball for INF hits.

 

Outlook: Unlikely

[Riverbrian]

.. But let's not make it sound like it was a first to third party going on. It wasn't...

 

Dude yes the other teams were having a "field party" or whatever sending guys from 1st to third. His arm is terrible as far as baseball is concerned, it's actually borderline embarrassing watching at times how bad it is.

 

That doesn't take away the fact that he has elite range and the ability to play a really strong CF, but to claim his arm isn't one of the worst of any OF in baseball is just flat out wrong. Luckily it will be masked a bit in CF, but still the weakness still remains.

 

Never claimed that... Never said it was the worst... But I never claimed it wasnt... I actually started with the words... "His arm is weak... No doubt". Not sure how that read differently.

 

I do claim that Runners were not having a field party. I saw bad throws... I did... His arm is not good... it will be the difference in a run or base on occasion... but it wasn't a field party or whatever... The impression being left is that hes personally responsible for all or most extra bases.

 

I've seen runners run on Francour. Runners go to third base based on where the ball is in relation to the fielder more often then they go on the guy holding the ball. If a runner goes from first to third... It is possible They were going with Parmelee, Span or Doumit in the same situation. Not all situations cuz his arm isn't that good... I get that.

[Shane Wahl]

Although, I don't refer to 24-year-olds as "kids" (imagine if the media referred to the pre-24 soldiers in our wars as "kids") I agree with Riverbrian. Some of you seem to want to just get rid of him, which is the opposite end of the spectrum from extending for no reason. Both are ridiculous.

[Shane Wahl]

By the way, the expectation of runners wildly taking advantage of Revere this year did fall short. He performed better than expected.

[Riverbrian]

Although, I don't refer to 24-year-olds as "kids" (imagine if the media referred to the pre-24 soldiers in our wars as "kids") I agree with Riverbrian. Some of you seem to want to just get rid of him, which is the opposite end of the spectrum from extending for no reason. Both are ridiculous.

 

lol... At my age... There are lots of kids out there... Some of them kids are running Fortune 500 companies.

[Riverbrian]

One last thing...

 

Twins RF held percentage... 47.5%

League Average... 45.4

 

Can we at least agree that Ben played the majority of RF.

 

if not...

 

Ben Revere 51.5% held in RF and 41.4% in CF.

 

 

The on base percentage slugging or OPS argument or concern is at least legit.

[jokin]

No doubt that the Twins pitching staff gave him more chances, just as every other OF had more chances to demonstrate their abilities, thanks to pitchers for listening to their coaches about the importance of pitching to contact.

 

That's not what I meant. Everyone and their brother attempted to take an extra base on Revere they wouldn't attempt to take on people with real MLB arms...I'm sure you saw that. What I noticed about his arm this year, he throws better with his feet planted as opposed to getting a running start before throwing. Like taking one off the wall, turning, and throwing.

 

Yup, I saw what you saw, the good, agressive managers had a field day on advancng 1st-3rd. I attribute that mostly to the (proper) decision to keep Span in CF for showcase/future trading value purposes, that would be much less of an issue with Revere in CF or LF. Didn't Revere have a few tag-up put outs, so that going forward and releasing in one smooth motion showed improvement?

 

His arm is weak... No doubt... But I seriously don't know what you guys saw... I watched the majority of games... There were times when the runner went first to third with Revere in RF... And in my opinion... Moments where they may not have attempted that on Francour... But let's not make it sound like it was a first to third party going on. It wasn't...

 

Its the type of statement you make when you know someone has a weak arm but they were not running wild and that is the impression you are leaving.

 

And let's be honest on the other side... He gets to the ball quicker and gets it in quicker... I don't care if a 4th grader is holding the ball in RF... If the ball is in his glove and the runner hasn't rounded second... He ain't going...

 

Serious embellishment going on here... His arm is weak... Got it... No argument... It will cost the Twins a run on occasion... No doubt... He doesn't have the Harper Hose...

 

The problem with these discussions as Puck pointed out. Is that it makes people draw lines in the sand... The pro Revere crowd like me end up losing our objectivity because we end up defending him... the anti or non Revere crowd end up disliking him more and yeah... I think they lose objectivity as well..

 

I don't want to shove Revere down anyone's throat... I shouldnt have to... hes done well... And Im trying to stop... But c'mon... He gave it and I assume he will continue to give it...

 

He was a first round draft pick and he was a 3rd round projection. No organization is going to reach into the 1st round unless he's knocking the ball around the park... And no team is going to reach for a pick unless they see something and think another squad saw something as well... That is why they reach... To get your guy... If Revere was showing no arm and No power he ain't going in the first round. Can we agree on that... I know some people think Terry Ryan and the front office are idiots... They are not that big of idiots... They are not taking a light hitting fast guy projected in the third round in the first... Jerrod Dyson went in the 50th round... That's where the fast guys who can't hit go... 50th round.

 

Was it a first round mistake? If you look back at 2007... There only a few of that class in the majors right now so I'd say no... With hindsight you could claim Frazier... d'Arnaud or Luebke may have been better choices in that slot... But with that same hindsight... 11 teams that drafted before the Twins did... they would be loving Revere instead of the guy they got.

 

You are also looking at a kid... 1st round pick who was not stalled in the minors for a second... Rookie... A... High A... AA... Majors... Advanced like clockwork...

 

He hasn't failed yet... At any level... including the majors... Whatever is thought to be wrong with him by some on this board... It didn't hold him back for a second cuz... here he is.

 

I,m not sure what measuring stick you are using... But a 1st round pick who advanced thru the farm with no stalling has to have value. So I'm pretty confident we have some undervaluing going on but it's clear that opinions are not going to change... So I'm really gonna try to stop now... But Like the Godfather III... Someone is gonna pull me back in.

 

If people talking him up is bugging you... Even if its embellished... Cheer for a different team please... Talking up White Sox players bugs me... I'm a Twins Fan and Revere is good baseball and he's a Twin... Talk him up all you want.

 

And I would not extend him at this time.

 

RB, I don't know if you were responding to me specifically or not. I was actually on your side in the debate and my position was that it wouldn't be a fatal mistake to consider extending Revere, but a low-risk way to possibly keep a guy cheap and tradeable for a bit longer and avoid an arbitration upside surprise bump somewhere down the road. The vitriol that came out against Revere based on OP/ WilliHammer's suggestion surprised me a little and I just wanted to throw a little love the way of a kid who appears to care about his career and is an asset to the community. I previously boned up on his biography and saw what you saw. His professional numbers to this point are what they are and deserve scrutiny, I just thought for a guy who hasn't embarassed himself or the club in his first two years deserved a little more respect and benefit of the doubt that he still can improve his areas of deficiency.

 

Regarding his arm deficiencies, I watched nearly every game as well, and my perception is the agressive-running teams did take advantage of Revere in 2012 in RF. With that said, we agree that he made major strides in efficiency with balls in front of him or parallel in returning it to the infield. He may have even increased his arm strength some, too. He clearly wasn't guilty of frequently missing cut-off men or throwing rainbows home or to the wrong bases, I guess that makes him coachable, which further suggests he can improve in other areas, as well. Too many on this board consider him a finished product, despite evidence that players can and have improved their numbers significantly heading towards the age of 30.

 

Your numbers regarding his held runner efficiency is good evidence in support of your case, but I would defer to Puck to point out what I'm missing in answer to your case.

 

I like a guy who is easy to like and appears to want to be here, on this trainwreck of a team, for the love of the game. By the same token, when/if the time comes for him to go, I understand that it's a business. Is that so wrong?

[Brock Beauchamp]

One last thing...

 

Twins RF held percentage... 47.5%

League Average... 45.4

 

Can we at least agree that Ben played the majority of RF.

 

if not...

 

Ben Revere 51.5% held in RF and 41.4% in CF.

 

The on base percentage slugging or OPS argument or concern is at least legit.

 

I think Revere's arm is overplayed. Does it hurt the team? Sure, any weak arm in RF/CF is going to hurt the team. Is it significant enough to matter enough to use as an argument to discount his range? Probably not. I'm fine with Revere's defense; I think it's the rest of his game that will hold him back. I wish the best for the guy but I've seen too many players like him stall out in their late 20s. He's a bad bet for extension. That's all.

[ThePuck]

Ben Revere has spent parts of just three seasons in the major leagues, played in a mere 13 games in the first of those three seasons, and qualified for the batting title for the first time in 2012. Yet, he is not only the active career leader among all major leaguers in a specific department, but has a huge lead in that particular area. Ben Revere has had 1,064 major league plate appearances but has not hit a single major league home run.

 

To put that in context, among players who came to the plate in the majors in 2012 yet finished the year with a career home run total of zero, the next 22 highest career plate appearances totals all belong to pitchers (led by Ryan Dempster at 688). After Revere, the next non-pitcher on that list is former Twin Tsuyoshi Nishioka, whose major league career appears to have come to an end after just 254 plate appearances. The next non-pitcher who is expected to appear in the majors in 2013 is Brewers shortstop Jean Segura, a rookie in 2012 who has just 166 major league plate appearances.

 

Ben Revere has not only never hit a home run in the major leagues, he has never flown out to the warning track.

[ThePuck]

'I think Revere's arm is overplayed. Does it hurt the team? Sure, any weak arm in RF/CF is going to hurt the team. Is it significant enough to matter enough to use as an argument to discount his range?' Probably not.

 

I agree

[Mike Sixel]

Revere may or may not turn out to be a good player, bit the only reason to extend him would be to reduce the risk of losing him because he gets too expensive. This seems to be a low risk at this point, so there is no need to sign him right now. If he gets better, then is the time to think about it.

[Riverbrian]

I know Jokin... You and I have been on the same side.

 

Like I said... I'm trying to back down. My Revere man crush is getting a little over developed with each and every post. Honestly I'm not trying to build a shrine to him... He's just a young ball player... It's just that some comments allude me.... I'd like to back-er down because its just making the division deeper... But... Just when I thought I was out... They pull me back in.

 

This time it was Pucks comment "everyone and their brother attempted to take an extra base on Revere they wouldn't take on real MLB arms".

 

Although you have supported Revere... Your post in response to that seemed to agree. So I said "you guys" in response but all in all... I've been happy that you and others have been In support. If I was the only one.. I'd be like Will Farrell running down the street in The movie Old School. I'm not and at the end of the day... We just got ourselves a difference in opinion. What we think and what some others think.

 

Puck's comment was flat out false and it just piles on the Ben Revere negative stereotype being built and I didn't want it to just let it get left there... Like it was remotely true. His arm is sub par but any impression that runners are flying around the bases on that arm is wrong. There have been times and there will be more times when the arm will give up a base or a run. However... Sub par arm does not mean he would do better running the ball into the infield and trying to tag the advancing runner. Ben can still throw it faster then even players of his speed can run and if he has the ball in his hand. The runner ain't going. I have also seen Ben catch the ball at the wall and throw it to first base on a hop. Granted... more air on it than most but let's not give the impression that players are heading to third at a disturbing percentage. No evidence to support that claim and its a false generalization.

 

i honestly don't like being this convicted on a player because there are no guarentees in baseball. Hamilton can sign for 100 million and hit .220 the rest of his life ... this Revere argument is starting to make me sound like I'm guaranteeing his place in Cooperstown and that isnt the case. i just think hes been good baseball and there is value that some dont appreciate because they like some skill he's lacking I'm guessing. I also realize that most of the detractors don't hate Ben but if this keeps up... Their convictions being challenged may end up causing more and more dislike.

 

I have a big mouthed opinion like many on this site and I ain't afraid to express it. However... People can check my posts. Typically... I have no problem saying "I don't know when I don't know". I go to great pains to say "I think" "I believe" in my posts to make sure that Its clear i'm expressing opinion. I try to be self deprecating because I've been wrong plenty of times and occasionally I'm pretty dead sure about what Im saying.

 

On the other side of the coin... We have Vodkadave saying "he will never" which is pretty definite in and out of context. I also didn't really appreciate the Vodkadave comment that you and I have a first grade knowledge of baseball and statistics and then saying he didn't mean to be harsh... also like Will Farrell in Talladega Nights with the all due respect line. Anyway... that's just his style so I'm trying to let that go... But... Obviously haven't yet since I just brought it up again.

 

BTW... Dave... I'm 47 years old ... I've been breathing in an unhealthy amount of baseball for almost 4 decades. From playing to coaching to umping to spending beautiful summer nights inside watching and reading and rainy nights outside trying to get a field ready to play. There are plenty of people who know more about the game in the whole wide world than I do including a bunch of folks on this site. It is after all... Just a quirky passion of mine. But I think I'm past the 1st grade level.

 

Lets not confuse my 1st grade punctuation level for some kinda of baseball knowledge deficiency because we disagree on something. As for understanding metrics. OK... If you say so. I hope to get to 2nd grade someday. Be patient with me.

 

One last thing... I don't know if it occurs to the posters of Twins Daily. But I'm guessing that Twins players read this forum. I'm sure some stay away from it and they are smart if they do... but it's not far fetched to think that some are drawn to the "what are they saying about me now". Insecurities that we all have.

 

In my opinion... It's Ok to have honest discussion of skill sets but keep in mind that this is the internet. These ain't private discussions. The nasty mean comments lack taste and a bunch of other social graces.

[twinsnorth49]

One last thing...

 

Twins RF held percentage... 47.5%

League Average... 45.4

 

Can we at least agree that Ben played the majority of RF.

 

if not...

 

Ben Revere 51.5% held in RF and 41.4% in CF.

 

The on base percentage slugging or OPS argument or concern is at least legit.

 

I think Revere's arm is overplayed. Does it hurt the team? Sure, any weak arm in RF/CF is going to hurt the team. Is it significant enough to matter enough to use as an argument to discount his range? Probably not. I'm fine with Revere's defense; I think it's the rest of his game that will hold him back. I wish the best for the guy but I've seen too many players like him stall out in their late 20s. He's a bad bet for extension. That's all.

 

Agree with this 100%, the weak arm angle is way overplayed, I watch just about every game and didn't see nearly as many "parties" going on between 1st and 3rd, it's being greatly exaggerated, sorry.

 

He's a classic flame out type player though, there is a laundry list of guys who profile just like him that came before and ended up in the "I can't run as fast anymore" trash heap. I don't see much point in extending at this point, love to watch him play at times for now.

[ThePuck]

'Puck's comment was flat out false and it just piles on the Ben Revere negative stereotype being built and I didn't want it to just let it get left there... Like it was remotely true. His arm is sub par but any impression that runners are flying around the bases on that arm is wrong. There have been times and there will be more times when the arm will give up a base or a run. However... Sub par arm does not mean he would do better running the ball into the infield and trying to tag the advancing runner. Ben can still throw it faster then even players of his speed can run and if he has the ball in his hand. The runner ain't going. I have also seen Ben catch the ball at the wall and throw it to first base on a hop. Granted... more air on it than most but let's not give the impression that players are heading to third at a disturbing percentage. No evidence to support that claim and its a false generalization.'

 

You make it sound like I'm purposely throwing false info out there to dog him. I watched the games too and that's what it seemed like to me. If there's evidence to support that my impression is wrong, and it seems there is from what you've posted, that's fine. But don't act as if I threw stuff out there knowing it was wrong just to dog him. I don't have any agenda when it comes to him. I want them all to be good players. I was just pointing out what it looked like to me. I'm not the first or last guy whose eyes have deceived him. His arm seems to me to be the weakest in baseball...from what I've seen. Whether that's true or not who knows, but it's damn weak

 

I appreciate the info you posted. It's good to see. Makes me feel better about him out there.

[DaveW]

BTW... Dave... I'm 47 years old ... I've been breathing in an unhealthy amount of baseball for almost 4 decades. From playing to coaching to umping to spending beautiful summer nights inside watching and reading and rainy nights outside trying to get a field ready to play. There are plenty of people who know more about the game in the whole wide world than I do including a bunch of folks on this site. It is after all... Just a quirky passion of mine. But I think I'm past the 1st grade level.

 

Lets not confuse my 1st grade punctuation level for some kinda of baseball knowledge deficiency because we disagree on something. As for understanding metrics. OK... If you say so. I hope to get to 2nd grade someday. Be patient with me.

 

One last thing... I don't know if it occurs to the posters of Twins Daily. But I'm guessing that Twins players read this forum. I'm sure some stay away from it and they are smart if they do... but it's not far fetched to think that some are drawn to the "what are they saying about me now". Insecurities that we all have.

 

In my opinion... It's Ok to have honest discussion of skill sets but keep in mind that this is the internet. These ain't private discussions. The nasty mean comments lack taste and a bunch of other social graces.

 

I'm not sure why you are getting so sensitive to me disagree with you, I never said anything about your baseball knowledge or anything like that. If I made you think that then I apologize.

 

You say I am trashing Ben Revere or whatever or being mean and I disagree. The fact is, I see him as a 4th OF moving forward (a very good 4th OF for what its worth) who should be able to stick in the league a long time, Juan Pierre has plenty of value as well, he's just better suited to not be in your lineup every day like Revere.

 

We can disagree all day on how important Revere's arm is, but from what I have seen, read etc he has the weakest arm of any OF in baseball. I don't see how he suddenly is going to improve at this point, I always thought in the minors they should have tried to switch him to 2B because of this (and the lack of 'pop'). Also I am not saying arm is an end all be all for OF's. But it does matter, teams were running all over Revere in RF because he literally has to hit the cutoff man who is further out in the OF then I have ever seen.

 

Now with that said, he does have elite range and excellent speed, moving him to CF actually helps his range/speed outshine/hide his arm even more. Do I think he is a perfectly fine stop gap for a year or two on a rebuilding team? Sure. I just don't see him ever becoming a legit major league starter because as I mentioned before, he will need to hit for a .330 average in order to get to that .725 OPS range.

 

If you think that is me "trashing him" or you are worried that he might read this and get hurt feelings or whatever I think you need to be slightly less sensitive. I'm sure Ben Revere is well aware of his arm deficiencies and his inability to hit for power.

 

I have no problem with "the kid" and hope he proves me wrong, I think he is looking at a long career ahead of him in the majors at this point anyways. I have never said he doesn't belong on the team, nor have said he doesn't belong in the league. He will have a Juan Pierre type career IMO and that isn't a bad thing. At this point however I think it would be a mistake to count on him long term as a starter on this team, especially with so many potentially superior options in our system: Hicks, Arcia, Rosario (if he moves back to CF), Buxton, Keppler. Benson?

 

I also think if they get an offer for a pitcher that can help moving forward they need to trade him because of two things:

1. I don't think he is able to match last years numbers offensively, he struggled quite a bit down the stretch as teams began to make adjustments to him. If you aren't a risk to even hit doubles, teams are going to move the OF in and you will see zero walks.

2. They have a ton of depth for OF, and absurd amount of depth in the minors for CF. If you can use Revere to fill other holes, you gotta pull the trigger. One of the Twins in house guys can match his production by the end of the year no doubt.

 

Just stop taking it so personally...

[Riverbrian]

For clairification on my diatribe.

 

My Comment to you Puck was simply my correction of Puck's everybody and their brothers assertion. This is just my opinion but I believfe it's possible that some are assuming this because Ben's arm is sub-par. I hold no ill will against you persoanlly... you are a smart guy and I enjoy your posts.

 

My Comment to you Vodkadave was only in reference to your 1st grade level comment. I also enjoy your posts and hold no ill will against you personally. I don't disagree with your sentiments entirely on Ben... You are right on many things about Ben. I think wrong on some but none of us are right yet... I think it's possible that we look at ball players differently.

 

The Part about players reading this site... Was not directed at you. It was directed to anyone who forgets or doesn't realize it... I typed a lot of words and didn't properly seperate that section of my long post.

 

 

The only thing I took personally was the 1st grade level thing.

[DaveW]

For clairification on my diatribe.

 

My Comment to you Puck was simply my correction of Puck's everybody and their brothers assertion. This is just my opinion but I believfe it's possible that some are assuming this because Ben's arm is sub-par. I hold no ill will against you persoanlly... you are a smart guy and I enjoy your posts.

 

My Comment to you Vodkadave was only in reference to your 1st grade level comment. I also enjoy your posts and hold no ill will against you personally. I don't disagree with your sentiments entirely on Ben... You are right on many things about Ben. I think wrong on some but none of us are right yet... I think it's possible that we look at ball players differently.

 

The Part about players reading this site... Was not directed at you. It was directed to anyone who forgets or doesn't realize it... I typed a lot of words and didn't properly seperate that section of my long post.

 

 

The only thing I took personally was the 1st grade level thing.

 

That wasn't even directed at you: Here is the whole quote:

 

the day Revere proves he can hit for even a .700 OPS (Which is still on the "way below average end of the spectrum for OF's) then maybe we can think about having this conversation. Until then, he is nothing more then a 4th OF, or a stop gap CF on a 90 loss type team.

 

Anyone who argues otherwise on the basis of "He is exciting!!" or whatever doesn't have the faintest idea of how baseball works and understands statistics at a 1st grade level. Not trying to be harsh, but it's the truth.

 

Maybe it was a little "harsh" but IMO the fact remains that nothing Revere has done to this point has shown me that he can even sustain a .700 OPS at the major league level, which IMO would be still be on the very low end of what would be "acceptable" for a starting OF. Even less so on a competitive team.