Article: Twins trade Denard Span for Nationals' 2011 first round pick

[darin617]

This is the kind of trade with which I trust Terry Ryan. Trading an established guy for a lower level minor league guy with some upside. I don't know if Meyer is more than a "C" prospect at this point, and his real test should come when he gets to AA next year, but that may be why he's available.

 

I am disappointed that the Twins didn't get any pitching or middle infielders to help them next year.

 

How could you call Meyer a "C" prospect, the guy hits 98 MPH as a starter and looks to have 3 plus pitches (not to mention size, good minor league results etc)? He was widely considered the 2nd best prospect heading into 2013 of the Nats farm class.

 

Meyer is clearly the best pitching prospect the Twins have and ranks somewhere between Hicks and Arcia but ahead of Rosario and Gibson, you wouldn't call those guys C prospects right??

 

Not to rip him but he may be ranked high in their organization because of the Gio Gonzalez trade that took some good arms to acquire him.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

may have been said already, but Meyer was drafted about 8 spots ahead of the Twins' pick in the 2011 draft... Wonder if the Twins were hoping he'd drop to them.

[kab21]

Of course it would have been nice to get a little more but this is exactly the type of move the Twins need to make to fix the franchise long term. Perhaps Meyer is a bust but you need a lot of good arms in your system to produce good starters. This also gives the Twins a little more room to sign FA's this winter.

 

I think people also need to be realistic about how difficult it is for two teams to exactly match up with needs. The Twins got a borderline top 25 pitching prospect and very few teams are willing to give this up. Very few teams also need a CF'er.

[h2oface]

i just don't get the mentality of trading a major league good centerfielder with a great value contract for someone who may never make it to the bigs at all. span should have been traded for a proven pitcher, and one that can help now, not "maybe" in a few years. what a waste of trading chip. and still no pitching for the twins 2013 season.

Please name these proven pitchers teams were lining up to give away

 

all anybody does here is guess. how am i supposed to "know" that? how are you? that question can only be answered by the ones privy to the conversations. apparently some teams were lining up for a proven centerfielder, eh? so the twins are the ones that give it away? what's the difference? the teams that always are building for the future, are always building for the future. rarely does that envisioned future arrive. personally, i never like a deal that is a proven for a best guess. best guesses litter the minor league rosters. and that is what this is. span is not a guess. i just don't like it. not at all. and oakland already got the nat's best young arms last year.

[kab21]

Not to rip him but he may be ranked high in their organization because of the Gio Gonzalez trade that took some good arms to acquire him.

 

He's a borderline top 50 prospect so this is a pretty weak Devil's Advocate position.

[darin617]

Deleted.

[jokin]

Terry Ryan and PPMPPPP

 

In the category of "Payroll Paring Moves of Proven Players at Premium Positions", Ryan definitely has Smith beaten and deserves some credit. Hardy for Hoey ranks near an all-time low in Twins trading annals. Span for Meyer looks somewhat better, on paper anyways.

 

Let's look at some comparable numbers:

 

Jim Hoey 6'6"/205#s

Hoey combined numbers at age 23 playing at 3 levels (A/A+/AA):

 

IP 51/ERA 2.28/WHIP 1.11/K^9 12.9/BB^9 3.2

 

Alex Meyer 6'9"/220#s

Meyer combined numbers at age 22 at 2 levels (A/A+):

 

IP 129/ERA 2.86/WHIP 1.10/K^9 9.7/BB^9 3.1

 

Obviously, Meyer achieved the bulk of his numbers as a starter, so the comp is less than exact, but still... both pitchers come advertised with major mechanics issues.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

would a few scrap heap relievers/MIF'ers really have changed your perseption of the trade? This organization is LOADED with scrap heap reclamation prospects. Twins need top end talent... not longshot prospects

 

Well not really, it just would have made it look better. I don't like straight up trades and I think it's important to squeeze out every last bit of value you can get.

 

Meyer has a ton of upside, but being age 23 in A ball doesn't impress me.

[Bark's Lounge]

There were not going to be any miracle returns in a Span trade. Did I expect a trade like this, probably not. Am I disappointed in the trade, not really. Who knows, this guy could be a #1 or #2 starter in 4-5 years, he could also be pitching in Independent Ball or working for a construction company in that same time frame.

 

I am however very happy for Denard Span. He is leaving a severely crippled franchise and heading to a team that has everything going for it. My guess is that Span flourishes in his new environment and has great team and personal successes.

 

Viva Denard Span!!!

[Roaddog]

I honestly think this was the best he could do. I have more faith in Ryan making these kind of deals as opposed to trading for MLB talent

[lee_the_twins_fan]

This feels a lot like when you know your car payment is due, but you have to get gas, and you cannot afford both. The Twins went the car payment route – giving up a good player for the potential of a top-of-the-line starter down the road. It won't help them in the immediate future, but it may help later.

 

On the other hand, I checked and Meyers is not on the Twins 40-man roster. As it's only his second year, he doesn't have to be. So the Twins now have two slots open on their 40-man roster, for the Winter meetings. Can we SHOUT trades or Rule 5 Drafts?

 

Meyers was in high A ball. If he starts in AA this spring, and does real well, he could always be a mid-year call-up. It's a real long shot, but a possibility.

 

Actually, I hope the Twins don't trade Willingham. he is built for Target Field. And as far as the outfield goes, I think Hicks will go north with the Twins this spring, and may be their starting left fielder.

 

If the Twins trade anyone else among their top players, I see Morneau going. I would hate that almost as much as Willingham leaving. Mauer is not going anywhere.

 

I would actually rather they trade Parmelee or Plouffe instead of Morneau. Give Morneau one more year with Mauer with the Twins.

[rico7961]

Wow. An A-ball pitcher for Span. I hope the fans respond and stay away in droves for our tax-payer funded stadium. The Pohlad's are really shrewd businessmen and look at the money they are making. To bad we won't have much of a baseball team to watch for year's to come.

[nicksaviking]

I like Myers, in fact I thought he'd be off limits as the Nats recently dealt most of their pitching talent. That being said, the reports were that Ryan was asking too much for Span, though no one had the courage to say what the demand was.

 

I don't think the Twins fleeced the Nats on this deal,so the question is, were the people saying that Ryan was asking too much undervaluing Span, or did Ryan come down off of his price overnight.

[rico7961]

1. Sano

2. Buxton

3. Hicks

4. Meyer

5. Arcia

6. Gibson

7. Rosario

 

Not a bad farm system.

 

Only 1 in 7 makes a major league impact. Where does that leave us?

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

I would actually rather they trade Parmelee or Plouffe instead of Morneau. Give Morneau one more year with Mauer with the Twins.

 

I don't see any trade market for Parmalee or Plouffe. what do you think the Twins could get in return?

[rickyriolo]

i believe that the fans will stay away from Target Field next year, as we all saw that late in the season this year....are the Twins looking to compete in year 2105?? because we will stink again in 2013..Thank you Astros for joining the American league next year, the Twins will not finish with the worst record for 3 straight years now

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

1. Sano

2. Buxton

3. Hicks

4. Meyer

5. Arcia

6. Gibson

7. Rosario

 

Not a bad farm system.

 

Only 1 in 7 makes a major league impact. Where does that leave us?

 

as ****ed as any team that has that low of a minor league success rate.

[twinstalker]

Geez, John, Meyer is anything but a C prospect. He's the guy I was hoping we'd go for if we couldn't figure out how to pull Minor for Span. He's a B prospect, maybe a B+, according to Sickels, I'm sure. I'm disappointed the Twins didn't get more, but if they couldn't get more out of the Nats, this is a guy they couldn't walk away from. He starts at A+ and moves to AA this year.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

Probably B-

[Seth Stohs]

Where is Seth?

 

I want to read what Seth has to say about this trade!

 

First and Foremost, I really like Span. Terrific player and a better person. However, I am often guilty, like many of us, for over-valuing our Players and Prospects and what we can get for them. For me, Span was worth a high-ceiling pitching prospect like Meyer, although I hoped they could get a couple of C-level prospects with Meyer.But, my assumption was that if the Twins really wanted a major-league ready starter for Span, it would have been more like a #4 or #5 type of starter. So, there is risk with Meyer since he's only got one year of time. There is risk because he hasn't seen AA yet. We can look at his numbers and say they're pretty solid. But Meyer is all about projectability, not about stats at this point. Guys that tall often take a little bit longer to develop, especially control, because for whatever reason, it's more difficult to find a consistent release point. After Gibson's first full season, he was up in AAA. Meyer got to Hi-A (which is where Gibson started). That speaks to polish. Gibson is polished. But when it comes to upside, Meyer's is certainly higher due to the extra mph. We'll see what happens ,but I'm excited that TR didn't just take MLB ready guys. Instead he got a high-upside potential guy.

[jun]

Alex Myers the name James Shields gives himself when he wears his high heels? Otherwise, reality strikes again. In a good way I might add - a solid prospect that slots to be coming to the majors about the same time as our best young talent? Sounds like the right kind of trade to me. Now to see if it pans out.

 

I don't think anyone is claiming Myers is some sorta of sure deal, but he is certainly the best pitching prospect the Twins have had since Matt Garza. (Gibson could be close if it weren't for the injury)

 

When was the last time the Twins had a guy in the system who could throw 98 AND get it over the plate?

 

Not long ago, remember Jim Hoey? I wonder where Mr Hoey is now. I hope the Twins scouts did their homework this time, I would not say trading traditional leadoff guy and a very good center fielder for a power pitcher with high risk is a good move. After all Span is our best trading chip, he is cheap and plays good defense. Morneau is expensive. Hamilton cannot play defense. I am disappoined！Span is irreplacable, Revere has no arm, look at his OBP, anyone who thinks Revere can replace Span must be daydreaming.

[jokin]

Where is Seth?

 

I want to read what Seth has to say about this trade!

 

First and Foremost, I really like Span. Terrific player and a better person. However, I am often guilty, like many of us, for over-valuing our Players and Prospects and what we can get for them. For me, Span was worth a high-ceiling pitching prospect like White, although I hoped they could get a couple of C-level prospects with White.But, my assumption was that if the Twins really wanted a major-league ready starter for Span, it would have been more like a #4 or #5 type of starter. So, there is risk with White since he's only got one year of time. There is risk because he hasn't seen AA yet. We can look at his numbers and say they're pretty solid. But White is all about projectability, not about stats at this point. Guys that tall often take a little bit longer to develop, especially control, because for whatever reason, it's more difficult to find a consistent release point. After Gibson's first full season, he was up in AAA. White got to Hi-A (which is where Gibson started). That speaks to polish. Gibson is polished. But when it comes to upside, White's is certainly higher due to the extra mph. We'll see what happens ,but I'm excited that TR didn't just take MLB ready guys. Instead he got a high-upside potential guy.

 

"White"?

[twinstalker]

I had hoped he wouldn't draw any attention prior to my draft that starts this weekend. Meyer was in my sights, and now I suppose he's in everyone else's, too.

[diehardtwinsfan]

If true, you have to like this move. The market on Denard was unfortunately weak (and for no good reason, really). Receiving a fireballer like Meyer is a huge get.

 

This looks better than going to the Reds for Cingrani... I like it. A lot...

[rico7961]

Read Dave Cameron's headline at FANGRAPHS. Nuff said.

[Kwak]

This is called "rolling the dice", but then so is the draft. I believe that this trade indicates a change in philosophy from PtoC. Likely he will look like an early Garza with FBs that often beget foul balls rather than outs. He will need to improve his off-speed stuff, but that is generally said of most pitchers at his level. Mechanics? Unless you have actually seen him pitch (ex. Liriano) I would take someone else's opinion with a grain of salt. Blaming mechanics for a "gopher ball"?--isn't that the expected reason for said "cookie" anyway? It does appear as if 2013 may have fewer wins than 2013 but many have posted that: a) Willingham had a career year (so sell high!); Mauer wasn't injured; c) the bullpen was basically solid and d) Morneau had a much more productive year than 2011. Unless there is a substanial influx of major league talent by April we should expect "a step back".

Let's give this Myers guy a chance before we "Hoey" him.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

 

Not to get all "Deadspin" on you Dave, but +1. How is a team's #2/#3 prospect be considered a "C" prospect???

 

They play for Chicago or Detroit?

[jokin]

Inevitable yes, but this is what I was afraid of, the inevitable reprecussions from the media:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/index.php/nationals-steal-denard-span-from-twins/

 

 

Seth, per your edit:

 

The following is portions of 3 paragraphs from the 10 paragraph article. If this is too much copy, it can be edited again, but these are the cogent points to the ongoing debate:

 

 

Nationals Steal Denard Span from Twins

 

by David Cameron

"To be honest, I’m a bit surprised at the price at which Minnesota was willing to sell Span off. I get that they’re rebuilding and they feel like Ben Revere can handle center field in the short term, but Span is the kind of player they could have kept as they rebuilt..... and the Twins sold him off for an A-ball pitching prospect who may end up in relief.

 

I don’t mean to downplay Meyer’s value as a prospect, as any 6’9 kid who throws in the upper 90s and throws a wipeout slider is a legitimately interesting return, but no one is yet certain that he’s going to stick in the rotation long term. He had a successful debut season between the South Atlantic and Carolina Leagues, but he was a 22-year-old college arm facing batters with significantly less experience. He’s yet to get to Double-A, and the questions about his mechanics haven’t yet been entirely answered. There’s some real upside here, but there’s also a chance that the command regresses and he ends up as a closer rather than a starter.

 

Meyer’s a bit of a lottery ticket. Legitimate upside, legitimate concerns about his future role, and at least another year of development before he’s ready to contribute in Minnesota. Meyer’s a Top 100 prospect, and if you think he’ll stick as a starter, probably a Top 50 guy. The Twins got a real talent back in return for Span, but it’s a talent with too many question marks to be the piece they’re getting back in return for a three win player under team control at a fraction of his market price. "

[twinstalker]

Here's why Meyer is a much better return than Mike Leake. Mike Leake has no more upside than what he's shown, and if Meyer doesn't pan out, you can find FAs who are basically as good as Leake. Top prospects for average guys when you're a losing team is absolutely the most cost-efficient and talent-optimal way to do business. And I really dislike Terry Ryan.

[puckett1992]

This is my first post at the site after perusing the many articles over the last several months. This is a great site for Twins fans and I like getting the Twins Centric articles away from the Strib web site. So, props to the braintrust of the site that launched it and continue to maintain it.

 

I found the Fangraphs title of "Nationals Steal Denard Span from Twins" by Dave Cameron to be funny, if not ridiculous. Obviously, the success of this trade from the Twins' perspective will be determined in 2014, 2015, and beyond. Meyer could be a complete bust or be leading the Twins rotation within the next few years. The Nationals benefit from the trade immediately and Span will be a key asset towards their quest for a World Series appearance and maybe championship. Good for Span to get this opportunity even though I'm sure he's torn about leaving the Twins.

 

I personally like the trade because it addresses a need for young pitching while dealing from a position of strength, even thought the pitching won't contribute to the major league team in 2013. To me, this doesn't mean the Twins are necessarily rebuilding next year. Span can be replaced by Revere to some extent and there are other options in the outfield. If Revere cannot handle the job offensively over an entire full season, then Hicks and others may be able to push him.

 

Let's see what happens during the Winter Meetings and throughout December and January. If adequate starting pitchers are signed or traded for, then there is hope for next year without a miracle like the Orioles experienced in 2012. If Ryan deals away Willingham and/or Morneau for lower tier MLB starting pitchers or A-level prospects, then it's safe to assume they're rebuilding. Based on comments from Ryan on 1500espn on Monday and earlier in the offseason, he doesn't want to enter a prolonged rebuilding operation, so I would assume other moves are coming. Other than just possibly re-signing Liriano.