Twins remove Calvin Griffith statue

[Tomj14]

IMO was a good thing they removed the statue, I fully expect Puckett's to be removed at some time as well. ( I am sure the Twins thought it was a good idea/right thing to do and probably assumed it would have added benefits to the team going forward, and probably keep the mob away from destroying it and possibly other things around target field)

I also believe at some point most of the George Floyd tributes will be taken down when people realize while it is good to show tribute to him for the terrible thing (murder) that happened he was still also a guy that terrorized a Hispanic woman who was at home with a baby during an armed robbery.

 

 

[SkyBlueWaters]

 

Sure. I know someone that everytime he says something or tweets something that exposes his true nature..... it is always a day later called a joke. 

 

Bingo. And in both cases, where is the humor? 

 

 

[yarnivek1972]

Just an fyi, 1920 is the year Clark Griffith bought the Senators. So, in the last 100 years, two families have owned the franchise.

 

Unbelievable in this day and age.

[SkyBlueWaters]

 

Yet as racist as Calvin could be, under his leadership the Senators integrated, Joe Cambria signed them a lot of players. Words versus actions.

 

Yes. It's part of baseball's narrative that the NL integrated and the AL remained white. Yet the reality was more nuanced, including all the Cubans who signed with the Senators.

 

I once went back through the Senators' rosters and looked up the Hispanic players, dating back to the 1930s and '40s.  That ought to be part of the game's narrative, too. I'm not denying how awful teams like the Bosox were about this. I am saying the story gets over-simplified.

 

We took a baseball tour once that began in DC, ended in Boston, and stopped at Cooperstown enroute. In the display celebrating the NL and Brooklyn and discussing integration, one clause mentions the Senators, just passing mention, no player names. 

 

Not just the names familiar to many Twins fans, Camilo Pascual, Pedro Ramos, Zoilo Versalles, and Tony Oliva.

 

But also Jose Valdivielso, Roberto Ortiz, Rene Monteagudo, Evelio Hernandez, and others.

 

Not to mention "Baby Ortiz" who gave 'em 13 innings in 1944. (I just liked the name.)

 

[yarnivek1972]

Yes. It's part of baseball's narrative that the NL integrated and the AL remained white. Yet the reality was more nuanced, including all the Cubans who signed with the Senators.

 

I once went back through the Senators' rosters and looked up the Hispanic players, dating back to the 1930s and '40s. That ought to be part of the game's narrative, too. I'm not denying how awful teams like the Bosox were about this. I am saying the story gets over-simplified.

 

We took a baseball tour once that began in DC, ended in Boston, and stopped at Cooperstown enroute. In the display celebrating the NL and Brooklyn and discussing integration, one clause mentions the Senators, just passing mention, no player names.

 

Not just the names familiar to many Twins fans, Camilo Pascual, Pedro Ramos, Zoilo Versalles, and Tony Oliva.

 

But also Jose Valdivielso, Roberto Ortiz, Rene Monteagudo, Evelio Hernandez, and others.

 

Not to mention "Baby Ortiz" who gave 'em 13 innings in 1944. (I just liked the name.)

Larry Doby broke in with the Indians just a couple months after Jackie Robinson made his debut.

[SkyBlueWaters]

 

Larry Doby broke in with the Indians just a couple months after Jackie Robinson made his debut.

Exactly! I started to include Robinson and Doby, but felt it was already getting long winded.

 

all the teams in MLB retire Robinson’s number. Ok, he was a great player. But would it take anything away from Jackie if Cleveland retired Doby’s number instead? Or each team retired the number of the first African-American to star for them? 
 

 

 

[R B TATE]

 

This is the second time you've brought this up and I'll just copy and paste my last reply that you ignored.

 

Cut it out with this line of conversation. Literally *all of baseball* is less black (in the sense of Black Americans) and this is not the fault of the Twins front office, it's a baseball problem.

 

My last post copied:

 

"Black Americans have stopped playing baseball and going from memory, now occupy MLB rosters at about 1/3rd the numbers of 40 years ago.

 

Surely you realize that is not the front office’s fault and a much larger Major League Baseball problem."

And it appears that you and your ilk are guilty of what you progs call systematic racism. Of course I ignore you, because you don't know what you are talking about. Blacks have not "stopped" playing baseball, and more would be playing and making it to the major leagues if these virtue-signaling hypocrites would go into Black American neighborhoods with half the enthusiasm of going into Latin America. They think that they have better "control" over Latin players. That is the dirty little secret that is coming out more all the time. I'll say it again. They call racism to cover their own racism. 

[yarnivek1972]

Exactly! I started to include Robinson and Doby, but felt it was already getting long winded.

 

all the teams in MLB retire Robinson’s number. Ok, he was a great player. But would it take anything away from Jackie if Cleveland retired Doby’s number instead? Or each team retired the number of the first African-American to star for them?

 

I would hope Doby’s number has already been retired. He’s in the HOF.

[Nine of twelve]

 

Yes. It's part of baseball's narrative that the NL integrated and the AL remained white. Yet the reality was more nuanced, including all the Cubans who signed with the Senators.

Of the first twenty African-American players in the major leagues there were 10 in each league. The team with the most was Cleveland with 6.

[Thegrin]

Rhe only  good thing Cal Griffith did was bring the Senators to Minnesota. It was a dumb idea to make a statue of him and it is about time they brought it down. 

[The Wise One]

 

Both matter.

Words are as hollow as can be if there is not corresponding actions. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Words are as hollow as can be if there is not corresponding actions. 

The Twins were one of the last, if not the last, teams to integrate.

Are those the actions you're looking to see?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here, please explain.

[Don Walcott]

A good story, with a bit more of a personal touch:

 

https://www.si.com/mlb/2020/06/19/calvin-griffith-statue-minneapolis-black-lives-matter

 

[SkyBlueWaters]

 

The Twins were one of the last, if not the last, teams to integrate.
 

 

Carlos Paula was the first Black player for the Washington Senators on Sept 6, 1954. An outfielder (CF in the minors) he had a single and a double that day. 

 

The Senators had had Cuban players before, but he was the first Black.

 

The Senators/Twins were the 12th of 16 teams to integrate. Boston was the last, with Pumpsie Green.

 

 

[SkyBlueWaters]

 

Of the first twenty African-American players in the major leagues there were 10 in each league. The team with the most was Cleveland with 6.

 

The narrative I've heard for years includes African-American players explaining why the NL won the All-Star Game so often between 1960 and 1980, 20 out of 21 All-Star games. The African-American NL stars have repeatedly been quoted saying they had something to prove because AL team were slower to integrate.

 

In David Kaiser's Epic Season, the 1948 Pennant Race, he wrote "In retrospect ... the AL racial attitudes were the single most important factor in the league's decline over the next 20 years--and the decline of the stronger league contributed to the overall decline of baseball."

 

The stat you provide backs my over-arching point. It wasn't all or nothing. It wasn't only one league integrating and the other not. The reality was more nuanced.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Carlos Paula was the first Black player for the Washington Senators on Sept 6, 1954. An outfielder (CF in the minors) he had a single and a double that day.

 

The Senators had had Cuban players before, but he was the first Black.

 

The Senators/Twins were the 12th of 16 teams to integrate. Boston was the last, with Pumpsie Green.

Sorry, to clarify: the Twins didn’t integrate lodging and Spring Training until 1964, I believe.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

And it appears that you and your ilk are guilty of what you progs call systematic racism. Of course I ignore you, because you don't know what you are talking about. Blacks have not "stopped" playing baseball, and more would be playing and making it to the major leagues if these virtue-signaling hypocrites would go into Black American neighborhoods with half the enthusiasm of going into Latin America. They think that they have better "control" over Latin players. That is the dirty little secret that is coming out more all the time. I'll say it again. They call racism to cover their own racism. 

I'm going to say this once and I do not like bringing my children into this conversation, as it is unseemly and just repugnant.

I have adopted two black children. I love them to pieces, there is nothing more that I treasure than my two perfect little girls.

 

But more than how much I love them is my desire that I should never have needed to adopt them in the first place; that the world should be a fair, just place where white people don't need to adopt black children because their parents can't care for them due to a system that has banked on imprisonment, unfair judicial rulings, and a general demeanor that they're unfit to exist.

And I actively work against that happening to future generations of black children. I donate money, mind space, voice, and activism to prevent this from continuing.

 

I cry about how much I love my little babies but I would trade them for a world where my taking them into care out of necessity didn't exist. And it just crushes me to admit that I'd give away my precious little girls to make the world a better place.

But I would. Because they'd be better for it and, ultimately, that's what I want for them.

 

So how do I represent "systemic racism" again?

[SkyBlueWaters]

 

Sorry, to clarify: the Twins didn’t integrate lodging and Spring Training until 1964, I believe.

 

That was in Orlando, right? Do you know about the integration of the Grapefruit League teams, in general? 

 

This site: http://www.floridagrapefruitleague.com/home/history/

 

gives some of the history, so you can see the Red Sox, Phillies,Dodgers, Tigers, Yankees Senators/Twins, and others are training in Florida after WW2, but I haven't heard much about how they handled integration.

[Brock Beauchamp]

That was in Orlando, right? Do you know about the integration of the Grapefruit League teams, in general?

 

This site: http://www.floridagrapefruitleague.com/home/history/

 

gives some of the history, so you can see the Red Sox, Phillies,Dodgers, Tigers, Yankees Senators/Twins, and others are training in Florida after WW2, but I haven't heard much about how they handled integration.

I haven’t read it directly but I’ve seen several people say the Twins were the last or one of the last teams to integrate facilities. Sorry, I don’t have a direct source for that information. Wish I did.

[SkyBlueWaters]

 

I have adopted two black children. I love them to pieces, there is nothing more that I treasure more than my two perfect little girls.

 

The world needs more like you, Brock. Here's to a place with less trauma, where perhaps some day I might stand in a concession line with you and your daughters at Target Field, with no greater worry than missing the next at bat.

[Linus]

I don’t have any specific info on this and I think it is important to be accurate on this sensitive and important topic. I do remember Jim Kaat saying the black players stayed in different hotels during spring training in 1965.

[ashbury]

Yet as racist as Calvin could be, under his leadership the Senators integrated, Joe Cambria signed them a lot of players. Words versus actions.

By coincidence I just received notification of an intriguing title to an upcoming SABR presentation next month: “Joe Cambria: Saint or Scoundrel? The Controversial Life of the Washington Senators ‘Super Scout’". If I learn anything worthwhile I'll report back in a couple weeks.

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

The world needs more like you, Brock. Here's to a place with less trauma, where perhaps some day I might stand in a concession line with you and your daughters at Target Field, with no greater worry than missing the next at bat.

Indeed. Cheers to that sentiment.

[Channing1964]

I grew up in the 70s and I don't remember anyone liking him much before the racist comments and definitely not after. I'm not sure why that statue was ever erected in the first place.

[Tomj14]

 

I grew up in the 70s and I don't remember anyone liking him much before the racist comments and definitely not after. I'm not sure why that statue was ever erected in the first place.

I assumed the statue was put up because he was the owner that brought a professional baseball team to MN?

There is a statue of a man by target field that got his start foreclosing farms during the Great Depression.

 

[Tomj14]

 

 

I'm going to say this once and I do not like bringing my children into this conversation, as it is unseemly and just repugnant.

I have adopted two black children. I love them to pieces, there is nothing more that I treasure than my two perfect little girls.

 

But more than how much I love them is my desire that I should never have needed to adopt them in the first place; that the world should be a fair, just place where white people don't need to adopt black children because their parents can't care for them due to a system that has banked on imprisonment, unfair judicial rulings, and a general demeanor that they're unfit to exist.

And I actively work against that happening to future generations of black children. I donate money, mind space, voice, and activism to prevent this from continuing.

 

I cry about how much I love my little babies but I would trade them for a world where my taking them into care out of necessity didn't exist. And it just crushes me to admit that I'd give away my precious little girls to make the world a better place.

But I would. Because they'd be better for it and, ultimately, that's what I want for them.

 

So how do I represent "systemic racism" again?

Hey you have done multiple things to allow your children to succeed which is awesome. If all kids regardless of color had a dad around like you, half of the issues in this country would take care of it self.

[nicksaviking]

 

I assumed the statue was put up because he was the owner that brought a professional baseball team to MN?

There is a statue of a man by target field that got his start foreclosing farms during the Great Depression.

 

I kind of assume the Griffith statue was only ever erected so that the Pohlad children didn't feel quite as sheepish about erecting a stature for their father who was also not a popular public figure.

[The Wise One]

 

The Twins were one of the last, if not the last, teams to integrate.

Are those the actions you're looking to see?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here, please explain.

The Senators may have been one of the last teams to integrate. 1954. Not a short time after '47, then as now the organization developed players. 

 

The words that ring hollow are from many different sources. As racist as people claim Calvin to be, he still did more for any community than most. He did give players the opportunities. Carew will even tell you what Calvin did for him. Hollow are from many a source on the woke side. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

The Senators may have been one of the last teams to integrate. 1954. Not a short time after '47, then as now the organization developed players. 

 

The words that ring hollow are from many different sources. As racist as people claim Calvin to be, he still did more for any community than most. He did give players the opportunities. Carew will even tell you what Calvin did for him. Hollow are from many a source on the woke side. 

I have to keep repeating myself because I wasn't clear the first time; from my understanding, the Twins were one of the last franchises to integrate facilities and housing.

[old nurse]

 

I have to keep repeating myself because I wasn't clear the first time; from my understanding, the Twins were one of the last franchises to integrate facilities and housing.

In 1961 pretty much all teams were segregated. Bernie Tebbets, Florida and city laws were the issues and lack of facilatation of forcing a change. It was teams like the Yankees and Cardinals threatening to move out that got the laws changed. The Twins were not at the forefront of anything under the Griffiths. I don't know if it was racism, or cheapest for the slowness to respond to the societal changes. Not many of us would be cogniscent of such things at that time. to give a definitive answer. That leaves people to choose what to believe on what they want to believe. 

https://www.startribune.com/yes-tear-down-that-calvin-griffith-statue-and-also-listen-to-rod-carew/571381692/

As a society we need to be a little more careful in what is torn to shreds. Griffith was far from perfect, but is he even remotely close toDavid Duke?