Article: Character vs. Production

[OldManWinter]

Invest wisely. If a cancer is introduced to the team you may come to regret it big time.

 

Twins should be able to find good character guys who can play

[Linus]

The real problem isn't homophobia or any other phobia. Plain and simple, his production is not worth $4.5 million more than Floriman or Dozier. He is not an elite player and the Twins need the extra money for pitching. The problem with most middle of the road FA signings is that they are only marginally better than players that cost substantially less, yet teams get very excited about them and end up with players making mutiple millions per year that just dont perform much better than guys making the minimum.

[Guest USAFChief]

The real problem isn't homophobia or any other phobia. Plain and simple, his production is not worth $4.5 million more than Floriman or Dozier. He is not an elite player and the Twins need the extra money for pitching. The problem with most middle of the road FA signings is that they are only marginally better than players that cost substantially less, yet teams get very excited about them and end up with players making mutiple millions per year that just dont perform much better than guys making the minimum.

 

Escobar's career OPS is .743. As recently as 2011 he put up a .290/.363/.413 line. Were he to approach either of those numbers, that is NOT marginally better than Floriman, and most likely not marginally better than Dozier (who probably isn't in the SS conversation anymore, rightly or wrongly.)

 

"Not much better" is, in the end, "better." Small differences add up, particularly in major league baseball.

 

The question is not whether Escobar has been, in the past, better than anything the Twins are likely to run out at SS in 2013. If he did, he'd easily be worth $5M. The question is, will he perform at past levels.

[beckmt]

Chemistry is not as overated as some of you seem to think. Players who only play for their own stats after a period of time wear out their welcome (read Delmon Young). Great for the first year or so with a club and out of welcome by the end of the second or third year. Players like this only tend to play hard when it is to their benefit or in a contract year. Put a team out of contention by the end of July and they dog it. Would not want Escobar at any price. He has now been in 2 or 3 major league orgainizations and has worn out his welcome in all of them. Stephen Drew has only been in 2 places and Oakland wants him back(at the right price). Twins should offer him a contract and see if he is interested(low first year plus incentives and then good options for year 2 or 3).

[snepp]

The Twins already possess an abundance of chemistry, it would be swell to balance that out with a little more talent.

[Guest USAFChief]

Chemistry is not as overated as some of you seem to think. Players who only play for their own stats after a period of time wear out their welcome (read Delmon Young). Great for the first year or so with a club and out of welcome by the end of the second or third year. Players like this only tend to play hard when it is to their benefit or in a contract year. Put a team out of contention by the end of July and they dog it. Would not want Escobar at any price. He has now been in 2 or 3 major league orgainizations and has worn out his welcome in all of them. Stephen Drew has only been in 2 places and Oakland wants him back(at the right price). Twins should offer him a contract and see if he is interested(low first year plus incentives and then good options for year 2 or 3).

 

I'd be fine with Drew.

 

That being said, I'm not sure how Escobar having been "in 2 or 3 major league organizations (it's 3)" is evidence that he's worn out his welcome or constitutes a "chemistry" problem, while Drew coming to the Twins (which would be his third major league organization since August) isn't evidence of same.

[Linus]

The real problem isn't homophobia or any other phobia. Plain and simple, his production is not worth $4.5 million more than Floriman or Dozier. He is not an elite player and the Twins need the extra money for pitching. The problem with most middle of the road FA signings is that they are only marginally better than players that cost substantially less, yet teams get very excited about them and end up with players making mutiple millions per year that just dont perform much better than guys making the minimum.

 

Escobar's career OPS is .743. As recently as 2011 he put up a .290/.363/.413 line. Were he to approach either of those numbers, that is NOT marginally better than Floriman, and most likely not marginally better than Dozier (who probably isn't in the SS conversation anymore, rightly or wrongly.)

 

"Not much better" is, in the end, "better." Small differences add up, particularly in major league baseball.

 

The question is not whether Escobar has been, in the past, better than anything the Twins are likely to run out at SS in 2013. If he did, he'd easily be worth $5M. The question is, will he perform at past levels.

 

Let me re-phrase my point: Escobar is clearly better than anything the Twins currently have. How much will depend on how much he returns to form and how much whoever the Twins throw out there improves. My point is that the extra $5 million is WAY more valuable being spend on more / better pitching than to bring in Escobar. Twins are far better off with better pitching and not having him. Now if money is no object, fine but that is clearly not the situation.

[SockNet]

Character and lockerroom issues are overrated. If he can hit, then he should be pursued.

Agreed here. Just get something decent(regardless of issues) to stop the revolving door until you can get an equal to or better, younger, long term solution.

[OldManWinter]

Some posters would advocate signing the devil himself if it meant a handfull of hits and a better arm. Character does matter.

[snepp]

Some posters would advocate signing Mother Teresa herself, despite it guaranteeing 100-loss seasons. Talent does matter.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Talent does matter.

 

More than anything else. Winning teams tend to form "chemistry" by, you know, winning.

[Ultima Ratio]

The Twins already possess an abundance of chemistry, it would be swell to balance that out with a little more talent.

 

Post of the day! Good on you!

[OldManWinter]

Snepp, you can have both!

[ThePuck]

Talent does matter.

 

More than anything else. Winning teams tend to form "chemistry" by, you know, winning.

 

Exactly...the As in the early-mid 70s were a bunch of jerks...they were always at each other's throats...

[snepp]

Snepp, you can have both!

 

 

In a perfect world, yes. But as Brock pointed out, talented teams have the tendency to build chemistry through winning. Talent isn't something that's going to grow on its own no matter how much chemistry you have.

[Mike Sixel]

I would think that if good guys lead to better teams, you would see that in their production...otherwise, how is the team better with them there?

[twinsnorth49]

Snepp, you can have both!

 

But it starts with talent.

[twinsnorth49]

These guys have to live together for 220 days a year. Attitude matters and someone who's a terrible human being will kill your team. Also, acquiring an avowed homophobe, in a market that just rejected adding homophobia to its state constitution, would really help the Twins acquire and keep the vital 20something demographic.

 

 

I posted this during a different discussion on Yunel, it 's a worthwhile read on cultural differences and being a product of your environment.

 

It's also from a perspective entirely outside of baseball , which is why it's void of the usual rhetoric on such matters.

 

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/yunel-escobars-slur-didnt-come-from-left-field/article4582951/

[OldManWinter]

Every player in MLB has a wealth of talent. The intangibles separate them. I stand by finding good character

[Ultima Ratio]

Every player in MLB has a wealth of talent. The intangibles separate them. I stand by finding good character

 

Ridiculous.

[notoriousgod71]

Snepp, you can have both!

 

Every player in MLB has a wealth of talent. The intangibles separate them. I stand by finding good character

 

Nick Punto > Ty Cobb

[snepp]

Drew Butera > Barry Bonds

[twinswon1991]

The Twins actually won something back when their leader was an absolute SCUM of a human being. We would all take 25 losers like Kirby Puckett with HOF talent over Gardy's collection of yes-men.

 

Bring in more Puckett's please!!!!!!!!!!!

[twinsnorth49]

Every player in MLB has a wealth of talent. The intangibles separate them. I stand by finding good character

 

Some have more talent than others, they're the ones at the top of the stat line. Where do you find the character stats? What are the metrics?

[OldManWinter]

You want Bonds snepp? In the first place I never expected we load up with players who can't play. My opinion was and is that untrustworthy players will let you down when you need them. Sabremetrics for character ??? Probably a good place to start is a police blotter

[TheLeviathan]

You want Bonds snepp? In the first place I never expected we load up with players who can't play. My opinion was and is that untrustworthy players will let you down when you need them. Sabremetrics for character ??? Probably a good place to start is a police blotter

 

Police blotters don't necessarily pick up on clubhouse cancers or bad attitudes. It's certainly fine to take character into consideration as a red flag, the problem is when you make pristine character a necessity that trumps talent as the Twins seem to do.

[Riverbrian]

The discussion doesn't have to be about extreme examples... I'm not advocating a team full of choir boys who spend their days helping old ladies cross busy intersections nor am I dismissing a player who shoots meth into his eyeball and spits on girls scouts. Yunel Escobar could paint kill puppies under his eyes and I wouldn't care. He could paint riverbrian sucks in flashing neon and I wouldn't care.

 

I care about what kind of player he is... Does he compete? From what I understand... He doesn't!!!

 

Yunel Escobar has talent and he has been run off two teams and the SS position is a position of need for a bunch of MLB teams. He doesn't produce enough to be worth it. Here's a blog to check out.

 

http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2010/07/14/addition-by-subtraction-the-braves-trade-yunel-escoba/

 

I don't know if this Mark Bradley is an idiot... He might be... I might be... But there are more articles like this from others... I watched Braves games and heard the announcers make comments about his lack of hustle.

 

 

You can't find as many on Drew but you had an owner calling him out this summer for not being a team player and that freaks me a little. Yes the owner could be an idiot.

 

In a nutshell... No more Delmon Young type players please... We all remember Delmon don't we? And spend the flipping money on pitching.

[Riverbrian]

One more thing for full disclosure... I have no idea what kind of Twins we have on our current roster... The Beloved Joe Mauer could be the very player I'm describing... I don't know... I could eyeball it with Delmon and I could eyeball it with Valencia...

 

It is my belief that we won't know what kind of Twins team we truly have until the pitching gets closer to league average. When the pitching matches up with opposing pitchers and the games become battles... That when we will find out what we are made of,

 

Teams generally don't make public comments about the players because I assume it makes it hard to unload them and if they can't unload them it makes their attitudes worse.

 

So when you hear a team publicly slap a player... Like Drew and Escobar... It's pretty rare and speaks to a high frustration level. You can also be certain that it wasn't a first time offense.

[Jim H]

One of the problems here is that the term "character issues" covers a wide variety of problems. It can be A J type problems where an abrasive personality is the underlining issue. Or the problems can center around achohol or drugs. Or it could be dedication issues such as being on time, doing the necessary work, etc. Or various combinations of other things. Unless the character issues appear on a police blotter, it is seldom in the club's best interests to make any of this too public.

 

That is the problem here, nobody here is likely to have a very good handle on exactly what the character issues surrounding Escobar or Drew, are. My guess is that the Twins, if they were interested in either one, would do their due diligence. I certainly would not like to make a guess on whether it would be a good move to try to acquire either one.

 

One other thought on this talent vs character debate. Some players perform much more consistently closer to their ultimate talent level than others. I don't know how much that has to do with character, but if you consistently perform at certain level, that can be much more useful than someone who sometimes produces at a very high level but at times doesn't accomplish much.

 

Tom Kelly uses to say that all players "gave away at bats" during the course of a season. I want to be careful in interpretting what he meant by that, but I assume it was important to him that his players did not give away at bats very often. Again, I don't know that character directly enters in here, but people who prepare well, do their work professionally, take their profession seriously, probably have a better chance of performing to their skill level on a regular basis.

[OldManWinter]

JimH, yes character issues are indeed a slippery slope causing so much hair splitting.

 

Suffice to say I much prefer talented players with the grit needed to do well and become part of the team.

 

I do not prefer Twins load up on Mannys-being-Manny types who may not care to contribute that day.

 

Saying I do not like those players to build with I will grudgingly admit that ... with two out in the 9th, men on, win or go home that a team is a whole lot better off with Manny next up than Butera or Punto.

 

The right intangibles make a big difference.