Max Kepler and the Cost of Silence

[adorduan]

 

I think you are not being intellectually honest. You say we made so little progress in 55 years? I call BS. Exhibit 1: We elected and reelected a black man as President. He stirred up old racial animosities and that hurt the country. But a racist country does not elect him. Period..

 

55 years ago we had some blacks playing baseball, basketball and football. Now we have many blacks in those sports.

 

55 years ago we didn't have many blacks in Congress, the Senate or in Governors offices. You can't say that now.

 

In order to say there has been little progress, you have to ignore reality. We made great progress, until Obama. He set us back by stirring up racial divisions. .  

Do Explain.....  I can tell you this, I heard the N word at work 10 times more after he was elected than before.  I do recall a-holes calling Michelle an ape....

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think you are not being intellectually honest. You say we made so little progress in 55 years? I call BS. Exhibit 1: We elected and reelected a black man as President. He stirred up old racial animosities and that hurt the country. But a racist country does not elect him. Period..

 

55 years ago we had some blacks playing baseball, basketball and football. Now we have many blacks in those sports.

 

55 years ago we didn't have many blacks in Congress, the Senate or in Governors offices. You can't say that now.

 

In order to say there has been little progress, you have to ignore reality. We made great progress, until Obama. He set us back by stirring up racial divisions. .  

"Blacks". You used it three times. Do you even realize how you sound using that word?

 

And then you literally blame the first black man to be elected president for racial discord?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I think you are not being intellectually honest. You say we made so little progress in 55 years? I call BS. Exhibit 1: We elected and reelected a black man as President. He stirred up old racial animosities and that hurt the country. But a racist country does not elect him. Period..

 

55 years ago we had some blacks playing baseball, basketball and football. Now we have many blacks in those sports.

 

55 years ago we didn't have many blacks in Congress, the Senate or in Governors offices. You can't say that now.

 

In order to say there has been little progress, you have to ignore reality. We made great progress, until Obama. He set us back by stirring up racial divisions. .  

Damn, you sure use "blacks" a lot in conversation.

 

And, again, it's super weird that you think the first black president caused racial division.

[h2oface]

 

Max Kepler's parents were ballet dancers.

 

Pretty much the same thing as military, I understand, but the uniforms are quite different.

 

Now that's funny!   

 

.....Only Kepler's mother's father was in the military - US Military, not German, he was American - US Army Intelligence Officer ...... sneaky ....... could be an outlier.....

[h2oface]

 

I think you are not being intellectually honest. You say we made so little progress in 55 years? I call BS. Exhibit 1: We elected and reelected a black man as President. He stirred up old racial animosities and that hurt the country. But a racist country does not elect him. Period..

 

55 years ago we had some blacks playing baseball, basketball and football. Now we have many blacks in those sports.

 

55 years ago we didn't have many blacks in Congress, the Senate or in Governors offices. You can't say that now.

 

In order to say there has been little progress, you have to ignore reality. We made great progress, until Obama. He set us back by stirring up racial divisions. .  

 

Wow. First electing a black president is progress, and in the same breath, it apparently hurts the country, and sets us back by stirring up racial divisions, which is not progress. That doesn't really work for me.

 

I read that Brock called the guy's point asinine. I think, if asked for my third party opinion, I would agree, but I'm also betting that surely he can come up with points that aren't asinine, therefore he is not asinine, nor did Brock call him that. Pointedly, I'm not a mod..... but I can read pretty good.

[h2oface]

 

Imagine the outrage if Kepler would have worn a lawn service mask.

[h2oface]

 

Damn, you sure use "blacks" a lot in conversation.

 

And, again, it's super weird that you think the first black president caused racial division.

 

Well, it sure pissed off the white nationalists that he was elected, and woke up and accentuated their racial agendas. But Obama didn't cause that "racial division". I guess it was caused by the majority of the American people that voted for him, both elections. Usually, when the person that gets the most votes becomes President, it is more unifying. Seemed to me to be a much more comfortable time.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Wow. First electing a black president is progress, and in the same breath, it hurts the country, and sets us back, which is not progress. That doesn't really work for me.

 

I read that Brock called the guy's point asinine. I think, if asked for my third party opinion, I would agree, but I'm also betting that surely he can come up with points that aren't asinine, therefore he is not assine, nor did Brock call him that. Pointedly, I'm not a mod..... but I can read pretty good.

This is spot-on and thank you. 

 

I can certainly come up with other ways to describe that point but none of them would be more favorable than what I used.

[the_brute_squad]

 

I literally listed five videos that rebutted your asinine point.

It's pretty apparent you didn't watch them.

But I watched your video. I disagreed, which is why I posted those links.

I didn't watch the videos. I was looking for you to respond with your own words. If look back you'll see I told you I'd watch the videos after you did. You didn't indicate your response was in those videos because I wasn't aware that their were videos out that specifically addressed each of Larry Elders points.

Which point was asinine? Why was it asinine. You're very good about blanket statements without any facts to back them up. 

You're apparently too emotionally revved up to have cordial dialogue so I'm going to call it good. It's too bad because you had a chance to sway people opinions but instead acted hostile to the people to provide you income.

[rdehring]

 

Damn, you sure use "blacks" a lot in conversation.

 

And, again, it's super weird that you think the first black president caused racial division.

I have been trying hard to stay out of this mess, Brock, even removing one response to a comment you made that I found insulting.

 

But I have one question that you perhaps can answer for me. It relates to your belittling another person's use of the word "blacks." In all seriousness, I don't know what the proper term is.

 

You see when I grew up, the correct word for American's with dark skin was negro, which was the common term I learned in the 1950's. I just filled out my census on line last month, can't recall what term is used for black Americans when they ask what I am. [edit...Just went online to check a census sample, see the term they used was 'Black or African American]

 

In all seriousness, Brock, I have wondered about this often over the past whatever years. In Washington, Congress has a Black caucus. There are probably hundreds or thousands of organizations that use the term Black in their title, including the one seen every day of late..."Black lives matter." So I ask, is it wrong to refer to American's with dark skin as Black if that is the term commonly used throughout our nation. And perhaps more important, if it is wrong what term should I use?

 

I look forward to the day when there will no longer be distinctions of anyone for anything and we all will be, "Americans." Unfortunately, I realize that at my age I don't have enough time to see that happen.   

[Yossarian]

"In my opinion the $35 million commitment the team made to him last year calls for more than playing baseball. It calls for being a representative of the franchise and city. Does that mean he needs to be an activist? No. I'm not asking him to. But in my opinion it does entail a certain level of social responsibility, like understanding and empathizing with a humanitarian crisis in the city where you play."

 

 

Why did TD not call out Minnesota's sports franchises for their silence in the aftermath of Justine Damond's shooting in 2018?  Was there not an argument that  Mohammed Noor was victimized?

 

In every year since 1980, roughly 10% of murders in the US have been interracial. Ninety percent involve people of the same races. Throughout this period, murders of white people by black people are about two-to-three times more common than vice-versa.  That is a fact, not conjecture or hyperbole.

 

To paraphrase BLM, all murders matter.  But, why does the media, now apparently including TD, focus on the minority of interracial murders?  Stated another way, why does not TD call out Minnesota's pro athletes for not making public statements about the tragedies that are all interracial murders?  Why not call out Minnesota's state and local government for not addressing a racial divide that is far more broad than the tragedy of George Floyd?  Why is outrage so ignorantly one-dimensional?

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

I have been trying hard to stay out of this mess, Brock, even removing one response to a comment you made that I found insulting.

 

But I have one question that you perhaps can answer for me. It relates to your belittling another person's use of the word "blacks." In all seriousness, I don't know what the proper term is.

 

You see when I grew up, the correct word for American's with dark skin was negro, which was the common term I learned in the 1950's. I just filled out my census on line last month, can't recall what term is used for black Americans when they ask what I am. [edit...Just went online to check a census sample, see the term they used was 'Black or African American]

 

In all seriousness, Brock, I have wondered about this often over the past whatever years. In Washington, Congress has a Black caucus. There are probably hundreds or thousands of organizations that use the term Black in their title, including the one seen every day of late..."Black lives matter." So I ask, is it wrong to refer to American's with dark skin as Black if that is the term commonly used throughout our nation. And perhaps more important, if it is wrong what term should I use?

 

I look forward to the day when there will no longer be distinctions of anyone for anything and we all will be, "Americans." Unfortunately, I realize that at my age I don't have enough time to see that happen.

”Blacks” in the plurality is considered condescending. Most black PEOPLE have no issues with referring to them as black PEOPLE.

 

I understand that language constantly evolves, particularly regarding race and I appreciate the question.

[ashbury]

”Blacks” in the plurality is considered condescending. Most black PEOPLE have no issues with referring to them as black PEOPLE.

 

I understand that language constantly evolves, particularly regarding race and I appreciate the question.

Adjective versus noun. Language is subtle, but "a black" in 2020 sounds demeaning as a noun. The tipoff in this case: typically in English one doesn't pluralize adjectives.

[segagenesisgenius]

 

Research also shows the longer and louder the protest the more likely for success 

 

Interesting!  Can you show me this research, if you have it handy?  I have not seen anything that shows that longer and louder protests can lead to changing minds, and would love to read about it!  

 

What I HAVE seen is that strong protests can lead to an energized base of the protesters, such that those people are more likely to vote in the upcoming election.  Or, to put it differently, protests that take extreme action and/or include inflammatory rhetoric are not shown to change anyone's mind, but they DO tend to make those people that already agreed with the protests more likely to make a difference in the next election(s) by voting in relatively greater amounts.  Basically, let's say that 50% of people agreed with the views of the protests a week ago, 20% were undecided, and 30% were opposed (totally random numbers).  As a result of the protests using extreme tactics such as blocking I-35 and involving hate rhetoric toward cops, those 20% are overwhelmingly estranged from the movement.  However, the next election in November may STILL be successful from the protests, as those 50% will overwhelmingly vote (whereas otherwise maybe only half of those people would have voted), such that the election is swung.  Was this the kind of study that you were referring to?

 

Frankly, this all makes sense to me.  This is how the Tea Party hijacked the GOP for a good decade; by energizing their faction via extremely strong and vocal protests.  That said, I wasn't looking to address the efficacy of protesting when it comes to energizing preexisting supporters of an idea, as that wasn't the purported desire of Nick.  My understanding is that Nick was doing what he was doing for the primary and/or sole purpose of convincing people that currently believed and/or acted differently than he did.  And I thought it was important for him to know that, if convincing people to think/act differently was his aim, that he could not be going about it in a worse way.  

 

TLDR: My understanding is that dramatic protests are great for energizing people that already believe a thing such that those people are more likely to sway elections, and dramatic protests are poor at changing minds (such that Nick's stated actions were poorly tailored to fulfill Nick's stated desires), but I would love to read anything that refutes and/or challenges that understanding.

[rdehring]

 

Adjective versus noun. Language is subtle, but "a black" in 2020 sounds demeaning as a noun. The tipoff in this case: typically in English one doesn't pluralize adjectives.

I am certain you were attempting to be helpful, Ashbury, but you lost me.  Although I may have learned it at one point, I honestly don't recall the difference between an adjective and noun, much less pluralizing adjectives.  

 

Some of us didn't have the benefit of the education everyone receives today.  One room rural elementary schools with a single teacher dealing with all 8 grades didn't provide more than what we could learn by reading books about the various subjects.

 

”Blacks” in the plurality is considered condescending. Most black PEOPLE have no issues with referring to them as black PEOPLE.

I understand that language constantly evolves, particularly regarding race and I appreciate the question.

I seriously don't want to stir up a hornet's next, Brock.  But I am curious why you capitalized the word PEOPLE twice.  What did you mean by that?  

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

"In my opinion the $35 million commitment the team made to him last year calls for more than playing baseball. It calls for being a representative of the franchise and city. Does that mean he needs to be an activist? No. I'm not asking him to. But in my opinion it does entail a certain level of social responsibility, like understanding and empathizing with a humanitarian crisis in the city where you play."

 

 

 

Why did TD not call out Minnesota's sports franchises for their silence in the aftermath of Justine Damond's shooting in 2018? Was there not an argument that Mohammed Noor was victimized?

 

In every year since 1980, roughly 10% of murders in the US have been interracial. Ninety percent involve people of the same races. Throughout this period, murders of white people by black people are about two-to-three times more common than vice-versa. That is a fact, not conjecture or hyperbole.

 

To paraphrase BLM, all murders matter. But, why does the media, now apparently including TD, focus on the minority of interracial murders? Stated another way, why does not TD call out Minnesota's pro athletes for not making public statements about the tragedies that are all interracial murders? Why not call out Minnesota's state and local government for not addressing a racial divide that is far more broad than the tragedy of George Floyd? Why is outrage so ignorantly one-dimensional?

Actually, everyone I know was outraged over it, as it was yet another example of police shooting first and thinking second.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I am certain you were attempting to be helpful, Ashbury, but you lost me. Although I may have learned it at one point, I honestly don't recall the difference between an adjective and noun, much less pluralizing adjectives.

 

Some of us didn't have the benefit of the education everyone receives today. One room rural elementary schools with a single teacher dealing with all 8 grades didn't provide more than what we could learn by reading books about the various subjects.

 

I seriously don't want to stir up a hornet's next, Brock. But I am curious why you capitalized the word PEOPLE twice. What did you mean by that?

To illustrate what Ash explained. People is the noun. I wasn’t trying to belittle anyone, just trying to show how speaking about the black community as actual people is important.

[rdehring]

 

To illustrate what Ash explained. People is the noun. I wasn’t trying to belittle anyone, just trying to show how speaking about the black community as actual people is important.

Now you really have confused me, Brock.  And I am not trying to be difficult, but would like to understand.

 

Referring to President Obama as a black president or black man would be correct, right?  But referring to a group of black congressmen and congresswomen as the Black caucus wouldn't be?  Is that correct?  Yet, that is what they refer to themselves as?  I am sorry, but I don't get it and want to.

[ashbury]

I am certain you were attempting to be helpful, Ashbury, but you lost me.  Although I may have learned it at one point, I honestly don't recall the difference between an adjective and noun, much less pluralizing adjectives. 

In that case you would miss out on one of my favorite old jokes involving an English teacher turned cab driver in Boston being asked where's the best place in town to get "scrod".

 

I'll take your question at face value. A noun got drilled into me as a "person, place, thing, or idea". I'm sure there are exceptions. Adjectives on the other hand are words that describe nouns.

 

I'm 6 foot 1, which sometimes gets me described as tall, though certainly nothing out of the ordinary. If someone lumped me in with others and referred to us as the "talls", well, we haven't been subjected to much prejudice so I would be confused more than insulted, but I would wonder why they didn't just say "tall people". It's like that - somehow using the describing word as a substitute for the people themselves makes a person go "hmmmm".

 

I will say, though, that what's OK and what's not OK terminology for black folks has made multiple shifts in my time on earth. So I run afoul at times. I probably wouldn't have said what Brock said - but when he said it, I felt I understood.

 

[ashbury]

Now you really have confused me, Brock.  And I am not trying to be difficult, but would like to understand.

 

Referring to President Obama as a black president or black man would be correct, right?  But referring to a group of black congressmen and congresswomen as the Black caucus wouldn't be?  Is that correct?  Yet, that is what they refer to themselves as?  I am sorry, but I don't get it and want to.

Caucus is the people (noun), black is the descriptor (adjective).

 

I'm not suggesting it's a hard and fast rule that will never have an exception. But the example you asked about, fits.

 

"The Blacks in Congress" would be jarring in a way that "the Black Caucus" somehow isn't.

 

But, again I have to say, depending on which decade you were living in, the implication of using Black as a noun has varied greatly. At a certain point, I believe it was a preferred usage. Someone growing up at a certain time could have gotten habits ingrained. Regional usage may also have varied at any given time.

 

[rdehring]

 

In that case you would miss out on one of my favorite old jokes involving an English teacher turned cab driver in Boston being asked where's the best place in town to get "scrod".

 

I'll take your question at face value. A noun got drilled into me as a "person, place, thing, or idea". I'm sure there are exceptions. Adjectives on the other hand are words that describe nouns.

 

I'm 6 foot 1, which sometimes gets me described as tall, though certainly nothing out of the ordinary. If someone lumped me in with others and referred to us as the "talls", well, we haven't been subjected to much prejudice so I would be confused more than insulted, but I would wonder why they didn't just say "tall people". It's like that - somehow using the describing word as a substitute for the people themselves makes a person go "hmmmm".

 

I will say, though, that what's OK and what's not OK terminology for black folks has made multiple shifts in my time on earth. So I run afoul at times. I probably wouldn't have said what Brock said - but when he said it, I felt I understood.
 

I am sorry, Ashbury, but the only part of that I really understand is what I think the Boston cab driver meant.

 

As I understand what you both are saying is that the term Black Caucus is wrong.  Yet, that is what they identify themselves as. [i didn't see your post that came up a minute before this response of mine. And reading that confuses me more. With that said, probably good idea to move on. Have a great day and thanks for attempting to help.]

[Nick Nelson]

 

To paraphrase BLM, all murders matter.  But, why does the media, now apparently including TD, focus on the minority of interracial murders?  Stated another way, why does not TD call out Minnesota's pro athletes for not making public statements about the tragedies that are all interracial murders?  Why not call out Minnesota's state and local government for not addressing a racial divide that is far more broad than the tragedy of George Floyd?  Why is outrage so ignorantly one-dimensional?

 

Have you turned on the news in the past week? Protests and riots have broken out in almost every major city across the country, and many across the world. This isn't about TD responding to what happened, it's about humanity responding. Kepler's insensitive remark didn't hit me in a bad way because I was upset about the situation, it hit me in bad way because the city he plays in was on fire and tearing itself apart in anguish when he made it.

 

If you think what's happening right now is solely about George Floyd, I'm afraid you are the one showing a one-dimensional viewpoint. This has been building up for a long time. This is about so much more. I thought that was beyond obvious, personally. 

[bunsen82]

Boy am I glad I didn't see this post for a couple days.  Even still, a lot to unpack. 

 

1. In general many individuals do not understand- the extent of racism, or things or symbols that could be construed as racist.  To have an entire post focused on an individual player who is extremely young and not likely fully aware of past historical context is short sighted at best. 

 

2. There are a few bad cops out there, there are a lot of good cops out there.  Just like there are a lot of good protestors out there and there are also a few vandals, thieves, and individuals have extremely poor intentions that are merely looking for an excuse to violate the law with potentially getting away with it. 

 

3.  If we are looking for tolerance and understanding, there is better ways to try to educate and have conversations that calling out players, posters, admin ect.   (This goes for all sides)

 

4.  I have seen seen the posts stating african-american individuals are more prone to be targeted, injured killed ect than white individuals.  There is truth to this, but it also doesn't paint the full picture.  There is multiple reasons african-americans are only 3% of the population yet 30% of the incarcerated population.  Its due to quality of education received, opportunities, generally lower incomes, not as many good role models readily available, and an important distinction- minimal financial resources to afford good attorneys.  Watch the movie Just Mercy.  Overall a very good summation of some of the issues and racism that is still occurring in this nation.   How do you fix this, you invest time, energy and money to help create a better opportunity.  It will not solve all the problems but it will allow individuals to be on a more equal footing for opportunities. 

 

5.  This is a pet peeve of mine, but I get frustrated with individuals on facebook or even posters hear who appear to feign outrage whether due to true feelings or merely to appear politically correct in the moment than actually doing something that will cause change.  This includes putting in time, energy money and generally just being involved with minorities, or lower classed individuals.  Then you will gain more appreciation for their circumstances by actually building relationships with those individuals but also allowing for lasting impacts in their lives. Otherwise this post will just be forgotten about in a week or two - just like the nations focus on the issue similar to the 2015 2016 black lives matter protests.  What exactly did those protests acheive? From my perspective obviously minimal impact. 

 

6.  Lastly the epidemic allowed to create this tinderbox, due to creating more financial uncertainty for many individuals, putting minorities more at risk by dis proportionally putting them at risk by either working in factories that didn't have the resources or plans to protects them, and bringing to the forefront an issue that has continued to be an issue for this country as it has been since essentially this nation was formed. 

[Kelly Vance]

 

”Blacks” in the plurality is considered condescending. Most black PEOPLE have no issues with referring to them as black PEOPLE.

I understand that language constantly evolves, particularly regarding race and I appreciate the question.

Brock, I think you need to stop speaking like you have been elected the spokesman for all minorities and black people. You just hurl bombs. I resent your piling all people of a certain race into only having one belief. That is racist in itself. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Caucus is the people (noun), black is the descriptor (adjective).

 

I'm not suggesting it's a hard and fast rule that will never have an exception. But the example you asked about, fits.

 

"The Blacks in Congress" would be jarring in a way that "the Black Caucus" somehow isn't.

 

But, again I have to say, depending on which decade you were living in, the implication of using Black as a noun has varied greatly. At a certain point, I believe it was a preferred usage. Someone growing up at a certain time could have gotten habits ingrained. Regional usage may also have varied at any given time.

 

Again, the theme I keep driving at in this thread is to listen with open ears and try to be better.

 

Preferred usage changes ALL THE TIME. It’s hard to track.

 

Sitting still is not the answer. As people change how they’d like us to refer to them, it’s just one small way we can show them respect.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Brock, I think you need to stop speaking like you have been elected the spokesman for all minorities and black people. You just hurl bombs. I resent your piling all people of a certain race into only having one belief. That is racist in itself.

No culture is a monolith but I’ve spent a lot of time listening to black people and trying to understand black America. I’m far from perfect but I’m 99.9% confident I’ve done a hell of a lot more legwork on this than you have. My kids demand that I do this work and I put them above all else in my life.

[TFRazor]

Serious question, are you guys planning on donating the money you're getting from the ads I'm seeing on this article to an organization that's trying to affect change? Seems like it would be appropriate. Also is there a list anywhere of such organizations so people could donate?

[bunsen82]

 

No culture is a monolith but I’ve spent a lot of time listening to black people and trying to understand black America. I’m far from perfect but I’m 99.9% confident I’ve done a hell of a lot more legwork on this than you have. My kids demand that I do this work and I put them above all else in my life.

If we want a better site, community ect., there are better ways to have dialogue, educate and come to either a common ground.  Merely having understanding, allows for a better base, but the messaging has not created a situation in my opinion that has changed anyones opinion.  Individuals can have differing opinions based on facts, circumstances and personal experiences.  We need to get the vitriol out as whole.  I do think those that our way out in left field can be somewhat called out, but also understand their perspective.  What does a white business owner have a perception of african americans if his business has been burned down?  Likely not very good. 

 

As a whole everyone needs to take calm down a bit, listen.  Ultimately I home everyone takes more of an approach of Martin Luther King than Malcom X.  Ultimately Kings approached caused a lot more change to occur, but we still need more progress. 

[Nick Nelson]

 

Serious question, are you guys planning on donating the money you're getting from the ads I'm seeing on this article to an organization that's trying to affect change? Seems like it would be appropriate. Also is there a list anywhere of such organizations so people could donate?

I can say that myself and other owners of the site have already made donations in amounts that vastly outweigh the relatively small money that will be made from ads on this article. But to answer your question directly, I do expect our site will make more formal donations to causes that need it, and will aim to do so on a continual basis because this issue isn't going away after this week.

 

To answer your latter question, Tom shared a list of organizations you can donate to earlier on the thread but it understandably got buried. Here's the link again. Thank you for asking. 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/1jy_Y714oFhb7APUOk4Y4gEPzWpyxswzHa_sylQLVmJ8/mobilebasic

[TFRazor]

 

I can say that myself and other owners of the site have already made donations in amounts that vastly outweigh the relatively small money that will be made from ads on this article. But to answer your question directly, I do expect our site will make more formal donations to causes that need it, and will aim to do so on a continual basis because this issue isn't going away after this week.

 

To answer your latter question, Tom shared a list of organizations you can donate to earlier on the thread but it understandably got buried. Here's the link again. Thank you for asking. 

 

https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/1jy_Y714oFhb7APUOk4Y4gEPzWpyxswzHa_sylQLVmJ8/mobilebasic

Excellent thank you.