Max Kepler and the Cost of Silence

[old nurse]

 

Interesting!  Can you show me this research, if you have it handy?  I have not seen anything that shows that longer and louder protests can lead to changing minds, and would love to read about it!  

 

What I HAVE seen is that strong protests can lead to an energized base of the protesters, such that those people are more likely to vote in the upcoming election.  Or, to put it differently, protests that take extreme action and/or include inflammatory rhetoric are not shown to change anyone's mind, but they DO tend to make those people that already agreed with the protests more likely to make a difference in the next election(s) by voting in relatively greater amounts.  Basically, let's say that 50% of people agreed with the views of the protests a week ago, 20% were undecided, and 30% were opposed (totally random numbers).  As a result of the protests using extreme tactics such as blocking I-35 and involving hate rhetoric toward cops, those 20% are overwhelmingly estranged from the movement.  However, the next election in November may STILL be successful from the protests, as those 50% will overwhelmingly vote (whereas otherwise maybe only half of those people would have voted), such that the election is swung.  Was this the kind of study that you were referring to?

 

Frankly, this all makes sense to me.  This is how the Tea Party hijacked the GOP for a good decade; by energizing their faction via extremely strong and vocal protests.  That said, I wasn't looking to address the efficacy of protesting when it comes to energizing preexisting supporters of an idea, as that wasn't the purported desire of Nick.  My understanding is that Nick was doing what he was doing for the primary and/or sole purpose of convincing people that currently believed and/or acted differently than he did.  And I thought it was important for him to know that, if convincing people to think/act differently was his aim, that he could not be going about it in a worse way.  

 

TLDR: My understanding is that dramatic protests are great for energizing people that already believe a thing such that those people are more likely to sway elections, and dramatic protests are poor at changing minds (such that Nick's stated actions were poorly tailored to fulfill Nick's stated desires), but I would love to read anything that refutes and/or challenges that understanding.

That was a couple years ago protests that I looked that up

[rdehring]

After reading this for the past whatever days, I do have something I need to say.

 

First, I disagree with Nick writing and bringing our attention to what Max did. I don't know anything about Max's intent or if he even knew what the meaning of the mask in the picture stood for. And if he did, I see nothing wrong with anyone supporting the hundreds of thousands of good cops out there.

 

Second, I feel badly for Brees. Probably would have been smart to stay out of this discussion, but certainly understand his sadness for seeing any disrespect to his country and flag just as I don't like the kneeling when the anthem is played. I would hope that if there is a season this fall, the protests will somehow be separate from the national anthem and flag.

 

Brock, I wasn't aware that you have black children and can not understand what they face every day. Not being black, I cannot understand what life is like for those who are. But with that said, I also believe that you have gone overboard on criticizing those of us who are white for what you believe is our lack of speaking up to a level you would agree with. 

 

Please ask yourself who gives you the right to judge each of us. Many of us have reasons for not speaking up or feeling the same passion you do. For lots of us, that could be nothing more than we aren't active about anything, political or otherwise.

 

For others, including me, something may have happened in our lives that cause us to be quiet on this issue. In my case, Brock, it is that I am somewhat fearful of many in the black community. And I chose the word fearful carefully as I honestly believe it is not hatred. 

 

You see a member of my family came to me a long time ago for her first job after graduating from MSU in hotel management. We hired her and put her in our Grand Rapids, Michigan hotel for training before moving to a permanent spot in her hometown, Lansing.  Two nights before NY Eve she was out with friends in downtown Grand Rapids. For whatever reason, she left on her own and was next seen alive at a nearby pizza spot. That is the last time she was ever seen alive as her body was found under a porch a few days later. Our company put up a reward which provided me with a line of communication with the detective in charge of the case. The case has never been solved, however, several years later I received a call from the detective inquiring if the reward was still available. Seems they had someone at a prison who told them who the murderer was. Although this has never been made public, the final right of passage into membership of a certain black gang was to "go out and kill a white girl." Unfortunately, she was the right gal in the wrong place.

 

I often wonder what her life would have been had I not said yes when she asked for her first job. Or if I had decided to send her to someplace safe for training, someplace like Minnesota or Omaha. 

 

I doubt you will understand why I prefer to be quiet when something like this happens. Am I angry, no.  Am I sad for Mr. Floyd, yes.  Am I sad for what your children face, yes.  Am I hopeful that America will change and they won't face what so many face today, yes. Am I 100% upset with how you have belittled all of us who don't agree with your anger and haven't spoken up...you betcha! 

 

 

[TFRazor]

 

Can anyone post a link that confirms the incident was racially motivated. If all this is based on unconfirmed assumption, any suggestion of a superior understanding or superior intellect is rather ironic. Taking such a hard position without full confirmation of fact and validation of assumptions is simply not consistent with advanced critical thinking skills or even an good understanding of problem solving practices. Sorry, it's just another example of people without any credentials thinking the problem is what other people don't understand.

 

I've been wondering that as well. I'm not a Minnesota resident so I'm getting most of this through the filter of the for-profit media. I know Chauvin had multiple previous complaints (I think someone here mentioned 17 but I don't know if that's accurate). Were those complaints filed only by black Americans? If not it seems like he is an equal opportunity piece of human waste.

[TFRazor]

 

Lol yep! Only I alone get to decide what’s right and what’s wrong in this country.

Drew Brees thinks kneeling = disrespecting the flags and troops. His teammates, the people he spends a vast majority of his time with, used kneeling to bring awareness to police brutality on black people.

He took the symbol BLM used to peacefully protest and made it about himself and his beliefs. The timing of his comments are bad. His comments were insensitive and dismissive of what’s going on in the world.

Well considering the person everyone thinks of as a "kneeler" was a guy who praised Fidel Castro, had no problem wearing a t-shirt with Che Guevara on it, and owns socks with pigs dressed up as cops... Sorry, Brees is a better role model.

[TFRazor]

 

The owners are white. I have black children, which has led to years of listening, reading, and a change of my overall worldview, as I no longer think of things in my own best interest, but instead the interests of my childeren so I choose to listen to the people who have lived the live experiences most closely related to that what my children can expect as they grow up.

 

For those of you who are parents, that probably helps you understand more than a little bit of my anger over this issue.

Well when you have the "how to respond to the police" talk with them, I hope you also inform them that they are much more likely to be killed by one of their acquaintances or peers within their community than by the police. That is just the reality. And if anyone questions that I've got no problem providing the statistical evidence.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Well when you have the "how to respond to the police" talk with them, I hope you also inform them that they are much more likely to be killed by one of their acquaintances or peers within their community than by the police. That is just the reality. And if anyone questions that I've got no problem providing the statistical evidence.

You can read statistics, but you don’t understand them.

 

And how dare you tell me how to explain systemic racism to my children, especially if you’re going to get it that wrong.

[jgfellows]

 

You can read statistics, but you don’t understand them.

And how dare you tell me how to explain systemic racism to my children, especially if you’re going to get it that wrong.

I take back what I said about being mad as hell at us. I apologize for suggesting your anger was misplaced

[Brock Beauchamp]

I take back what I said about being mad as hell at us. I apologize for suggesting your anger was misplaced

You’re the second or third person to say this in this very thread.

 

When I say I’m mad as hell, understand that I’m not mad as hell at people who want to have a conversation.

 

I’m mad as hell at that guy are there are millions of that guy in America.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

After reading this for the past whatever days, I do have something I need to say.

 

First, I disagree with Nick writing and bringing our attention to what Max did. I don't know anything about Max's intent or if he even knew what the meaning of the mask in the picture stood for. And if he did, I see nothing wrong with anyone supporting the hundreds of thousands of good cops out there.

 

Second, I feel badly for Brees. Probably would have been smart to stay out of this discussion, but certainly understand his sadness for seeing any disrespect to his country and flag just as I don't like the kneeling when the anthem is played. I would hope that if there is a season this fall, the protests will somehow be separate from the national anthem and flag.

 

Brock, I wasn't aware that you have black children and can not understand what they face every day. Not being black, I cannot understand what life is like for those who are. But with that said, I also believe that you have gone overboard on criticizing those of us who are white for what you believe is our lack of speaking up to a level you would agree with. 

 

Please ask yourself who gives you the right to judge each of us. Many of us have reasons for not speaking up or feeling the same passion you do. For lots of us, that could be nothing more than we aren't active about anything, political or otherwise.

 

For others, including me, something may have happened in our lives that cause us to be quiet on this issue. In my case, Brock, it is that I am somewhat fearful of many in the black community. And I chose the word fearful carefully as I honestly believe it is not hatred. 

 

You see a member of my family came to me a long time ago for her first job after graduating from MSU in hotel management. We hired her and put her in our Grand Rapids, Michigan hotel for training before moving to a permanent spot in her hometown, Lansing.  Two nights before NY Eve she was out with friends in downtown Grand Rapids. For whatever reason, she left on her own and was next seen alive at a nearby pizza spot. That is the last time she was ever seen alive as her body was found under a porch a few days later. Our company put up a reward which provided me with a line of communication with the detective in charge of the case. The case has never been solved, however, several years later I received a call from the detective inquiring if the reward was still available. Seems they had someone at a prison who told them who the murderer was. Although this has never been made public, the final right of passage into membership of a certain black gang was to "go out and kill a white girl." Unfortunately, she was the right gal in the wrong place.

 

I often wonder what her life would have been had I not said yes when she asked for her first job. Or if I had decided to send her to someplace safe for training, someplace like Minnesota or Omaha. 

 

I doubt you will understand why I prefer to be quiet when something like this happens. Am I angry, no.  Am I sad for Mr. Floyd, yes.  Am I sad for what your children face, yes.  Am I hopeful that America will change and they won't face what so many face today, yes. Am I 100% upset with how you have belittled all of us who don't agree with your anger and haven't spoken up...you betcha! 

Cool story. I lost my mother and brother to Asian street racers doing 120mph in a raced out Honda.

 

Next time something bad happens to an Asian person, I'll be sure to step in and post exactly what you posted here.

 

That's fair, right? That wouldn't be the least bit condescending or have the taint of gloat on it at all.

[TFRazor]

 

And how dare you tell me how to explain systemic racism to my children, especially if you’re going to get it that wrong.

 

Isn't that the whole point of this article? It's spent the entire time telling us how we should explain to our children that, contrary to all evidence, the police are out hunting down people due to the color of their skin.

In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or dangerous, 234 of which were Black Americans. That share of shootings is LESS that what would be expected of Black American crime rates. In 2018 (last complete statistics we have), Black Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders, committed 63% of robberies, and all that despite the fact they make up only 13% of the population. And honestly it's mostly young males from the Black American population so that 13% is too large. Black women are not typically the ones committing the crimes. According to the Washington Post, police fatally shot 9 unarmed Black Americans and 19 unarmed White Americans in 2019. The Post defines "unarmed" so broadly that one of the suspects had a loaded handgun in his car at the time of his interaction with law enforcement but they still put him in the unarmed category. In 2018, there were 7,400 Black American homicide victims. Assuming a comparable rate of police involved fatalities of unarmed Black American, that's 9 out of 7,400. That's 0.1%. 

 

Now maybe I don't understand statistics, but it's pretty easy to figure out that a 0.1% rate doesn't equal systemic racism.

 

And finally, on Memorial Day, 10 Black Americans were killed in drive-by shootings in Chicago. I haven't heard a peep about that from you or anyone on this board. "Complicity by silence" perhaps?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Isn't that the whole point of this article? It's spent the entire time telling us how we should explain to our children that, contrary to all evidence, the police are out hunting down people due to the color of their skin.

In 2019 police officers fatally shot 1,004 people, most of whom were armed or dangerous, 234 of which were Black Americans. That share of shootings is LESS that what would be expected of Black American crime rates. In 2018 (last complete statistics we have), Black Americans made up 53% of known homicide offenders, committed 63% of robberies, and all that despite the fact they make up only 13% of the population. And honestly it's mostly young males from the Black American population so that 13% is too large. Black women are not typically the ones committing the crimes. According to the Washington Post, police fatally shot 9 unarmed Black Americans and 19 unarmed White Americans in 2019. The Post defines "unarmed" so broadly that one of the suspects had a loaded handgun in his car at the time of his interaction with law enforcement but they still put him in the unarmed category. In 2018, there were 7,400 Black American homicide victims. Assuming a comparable rate of police involved fatalities of unarmed Black American, that's 9 out of 7,400. That's 0.1%. 

 

Now maybe I don't understand statistics, but it's pretty easy to figure out that a 0.1% rate doesn't equal systemic racism.

 

And finally, on Memorial Day, 10 Black Americans were killed in drive-by shootings in Chicago. I haven't heard a peep about that from you or anyone on this board. "Complicity by silence" perhaps?

Yes, "complicity by silence". Because I'm not voting for, donating to, and helping end systemic racism as a whole. The mere fact that I haven't gone on tangents on this particular forum in the past month about literally everything wrong with America regarding race is a real "gotcha" moment for you.

 

You're part of the problem. 

 

And, again, how ****ing dare you think you know a goddamned thing about how to raise black children. I've literally spent years studying, listening, and trying to be the best, most prepared parent I can to raise my children for their specific needs.

 

And you just waltz in and say what you've said? Shame on you. SHAME ON YOU.

[rdehring]

 

Cool story. I lost my mother and brother to Asian street racers doing 120mph in a raced out Honda.

 

Next time something bad happens to an Asian person, I'll be sure to step in and post exactly what you posted here.

 

That's fair, right? That wouldn't be the least bit condescending or have the taint of gloat on it at all.

I would have not referred to what I said as cool, Brock. Sad may be much more appropriate. I can not begin to understand the loss you must have felt and continue to feel from the loss of your Mom and brother.  

 

Unfortunately you finished your reply by degrading what I said and feel. I cannot begin to understand the pain you must live with to have such hatred for those of us who do not have the same anger as you. I pray that God will find a way to ease that pain as you go on with your life.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I would have not referred to what I said as cool, Brock. Sad may be much more appropriate. I can not begin to understand the loss you must have felt and continue to feel from the loss of your Mom and brother.  

 

Unfortunately you finished your reply by degrading what I said and feel. I cannot begin to understand the pain you must live with to have such hatred for those of us who do not have the same anger as you. I pray that God will find a way to ease that pain as you go on with your life.

You literally said you're not angry about police kneeling on a man's neck for ten minutes as he cried for his mother.

 

That's not okay.

[TFRazor]

 

Yes, "complicity by silence". Because I'm not voting for, donating to, and helping end systemic racism as a whole. The mere fact that I haven't gone on tangents on this particular forum in the past month about literally everything wrong with America regarding race is a real "gotcha" moment for you.

 

You're part of the problem. 

 

And, again, how ****ing dare you think you know a goddamned thing about how to raise black children. I've literally spent years studying, listening, and trying to be the best, most prepared parent I can to raise my children for their specific needs.

 

And you just waltz in and say what you've said? Shame on you. SHAME ON YOU.

I don't believe I once questioned your abilities as a parent. I don't doubt that raising children black offers it's own unique challenges as opposed to raising those of caucasian descent and if you feel I was denigrating the work and effort you have expended then I offer my sincerest apologies as that was not my intent. But to quote you from earlier in the thread, "I think you're reading more into than I actually said". Of course you didn't go off on tangents over the last month about everything wrong with America. However you picked this tangent and here we are. What exactly did I say? That interactions between the police and unarmed Black Americans, there's a 0.1% chance that ends in a fatality? Should I have instead said that there was a 99.9% chance that it wouldn't? Should I have included that police officers are 18.5 times more likely to be killed by a Black American male than that same unarmed male has of being killed by the police.

 

Think I'm the problem all you want. It doesn't make you any less wrong. As for you "shaming" me, I'm not going to take it personally. You're pissed at what happened in Minneapolis and rightfully so.

[amiller92]

This is great. Thanks, Nick.

[rdehring]

 

You literally said you're not angry about police kneeling on a man's neck for ten minutes as he cried for his mother.

 

That's not okay.

My wife and I were sitting on the couch watching the news when I saw the tape for the first time. I recall shaking my head and feeling sad, not angry. I also recall wondering what in the world the officer could have been thinking as he murdered Mr. Floyd, didn't he know that he was killing this man and would spend the rest of his life in prison?

 

But who are you to say it is not ok for me to feel sad, rather than angry. For your information, I also felt sad as I stayed up much of the next couple nights and watch much of Lake Street burned to the ground.  I felt sad one morning when I watched channel whatever interview the old black gal in a wheelchair who lived in fear the night before as rioters approached the high rise she lives in. I recall feeling sad when she talked about not knowing how she was going to get to a store to buy food.

 

I also am sad every time a young black gal is lying in her bed in St. Paul and a bullet comes through the wall of her home. I recall being sad when I recall the young black child sitting in a car chair at a stop sign in St. Paul when he was shot by someone in another car.

 

I continue to wonder when someone with the ability to do so is going to do something to stop all the senseless shooting in America. I know, however, that an old white guy isn't going to be the one to accomplish that, so I keep my mouth shut. But I will tell you that it does upset me to have someone I have never met tell me what I have to think or how to act. I cannot understand how anyone can honestly believe he has that right. And you don't need to submit another smart reply as I have said more than I should have and will not respond. 

[Squirrel]

Fear. Anger. Frustration. Sadness. Indifference. Loss. Apathy. Fear. Anger. Frustration. Sadness.

 

Emotions are powerful things. They can lead us down paths for betterment and fuel change. But they can also cause harm as we lash out because of them. In this thread they have run the gamut and I see no further purpose to continue with this discussion here and now, today, in this thread, on this website. I do think further conversation and thought out in the world is necessary, but not right here and now in this thread. Just to remind everyone what is in our comments policy:

 

"Please be mindful that comments relating to racial, cultural, religious, national, gender and sexual identity can be offensive, ditto locker room talk, even when there is no disrespectful intent."

 

Please be mindful. 

 

Thank you.