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Max Kepler and the Cost of Silence


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Here's a recap of the thread for those that don't want to read through it all.

 

The self-righteous and outraged along with those that agree with them are thoughtful geniuses and our morale compass.

 

If you do not FULLY agree with them without exception you are an uneducated and ignorant hillbilly and need to be educated on the right or wrong stance so you can fall into place.

 

No one's closet is clean and I'm sure a lot of posters (including myself) have done things worse in their lives than not vocally condemning police violence.

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Here's a recap of the thread for those that don't want to read through it all.

 

The self-righteous and outraged along with those that agree with them are thoughtful geniuses and our morale compass.

 

If you do not FULLY agree with them without exception you are an uneducated and ignorant hillbilly and need to be educated on the right or wrong stance so you can fall into place.

 

No one's closet is clean and I'm sure a lot of posters (including myself) have done things worse in their lives than not vocally condemning police violence.

 

Can anyone post a link that confirms the incident was racially motivated. If all this is based on unconfirmed assumption, any suggestion of a superior understanding or superior intellect is rather ironic. Taking such a hard position without full confirmation of fact and validation of assumptions is simply not consistent with advanced critical thinking skills or even an good understanding of problem solving practices. Sorry, it's just another example of people without any credentials thinking the problem is what other people don't understand.

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Here's a thought that just came to mind.

 

Can anyone verify that all of Twins Daily's owners and moderators have publicly taken an appropriate stance on this? I would guess they have, but I don't monitor all social media so I can't say for sure. Serious question, no snark.

 

I guess I don't know if all owners and moderators are white. But honestly, if they are all white, I expect more out of Twins Daily to ensure that we're getting a full spectrum of voices and perspectives to cover and moderate this issue and Twins baseball in general. Not serious statement, 50% snark, 50% humor.

 

No arguments please. That's hilarious and a freaking genius post 16 pages in. If you don't agree, you're wrong. No tagbacks.

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As long as we're asking, are there any PoC who post on this site? I have maybe met one or two at the events I've attended, but couldn't swear to that. Feel free to PM me if you are uncomfortable saying so in the public forum.

 

Much appreciated. No nefarious purpose I'm aware of; just really curious.

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As long as we're asking, are there any PoC who post on this site? I have maybe met one or two at the events I've attended, but couldn't swear to that. Feel free to PM me if you are uncomfortable saying so in the public forum.

 

Much appreciated. No nefarious purpose I'm aware of; just really curious.

There are a few, at least one of which has posted in this thread. I will not name names for obvious reasons.

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Here's a thought that just came to mind.

 

Can anyone verify that all of Twins Daily's owners and moderators have publicly taken an appropriate stance on this? I would guess they have, but I don't monitor all social media so I can't say for sure. Serious question, no snark.

 

I guess I don't know if all owners and moderators are white. But honestly, if they are all white, I expect more out of Twins Daily to ensure that we're getting a full spectrum of voices and perspectives to cover and moderate this issue and Twins baseball in general. Not serious statement, 50% snark, 50% humor.

 

No arguments please. That's hilarious and a freaking genius post 16 pages in. If you don't agree, you're wrong. No tagbacks.

The owners are white. I have black children, which has led to years of listening, reading, and a change of my overall worldview, as I no longer think of things in my own best interest, but instead the interests of my childeren so I choose to listen to the people who have lived the live experiences most closely related to that what my children can expect as they grow up.

 

For those of you who are parents, that probably helps you understand more than a little bit of my anger over this issue.

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Can anyone post a link that confirms the incident was racially motivated. If all this is based on unconfirmed assumption, any suggestion of a superior understanding or superior intellect is rather ironic. Taking such a hard position without full confirmation of fact and validation of assumptions is simply not consistent with advanced critical thinking skills or even an good understanding of problem solving practices. Sorry, it's just another example of people without any credentials thinking the problem is what other people don't understand.

This. I'm not convinced that it was racially motivated at all. Police brutallity, yes for sure. My hunch is Chauvin would have done the same thing to anyone else at this particular moment. Which brings me to another point. Until people of color, whether they are black, brown, yellow, red or white learn not to abuse alcohol, drugs, tobacco, etc and learn not to break laws like pass funny money and create a public disturbance and then resist arrest their lives will continue to go nowhere fast.

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This. I'm not convinced that it was racially motivated at all. Police brutallity, yes for sure. My hunch is Chauvin would have done the same thing to anyone else at this particular moment. Which brings me to another point. Until people of color, whether they are black, brown, yellow, red or white learn not to abuse alcohol, drugs, tobacco, etc and learn not to break laws like pass funny money and create a public disturbance and then resist arrest their lives will continue to go nowhere fast.

victim blaming is really bad look. Please don’t post this type of thing.
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This. I'm not convinced that it was racially motivated at all. Police brutallity, yes for sure. My hunch is Chauvin would have done the same thing to anyone else at this particular moment. Which brings me to another point. Until people of color, whether they are black, brown, yellow, red or white learn not to abuse alcohol, drugs, tobacco, etc and learn not to break laws like pass funny money and create a public disturbance and then resist arrest their lives will continue to go nowhere fast.

I’ll reinforce what Sconnie said more forcefully:

 

If you blame a man who was killed for being suspected of illegally passing TWENTY DOLLARS, either refrain from posting or expect to be escorted off the board because your perspective is so completely askew that Twins Daily does not welcome your opinion.

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Lol yep! Only I alone get to decide what’s right and what’s wrong in this country.

 

Drew Brees thinks kneeling = disrespecting the flags and troops. His teammates, the people he spends a vast majority of his time with, used kneeling to bring awareness to police brutality on black people.

 

He took the symbol BLM used to peacefully protest and made it about himself and his beliefs. The timing of his comments are bad. His comments were insensitive and dismissive of what’s going on in the world.

I read that Brees took a knee in protest before the national anthem at some point. Seems to me that is a germane point. I think it is possible to respect the flag and not condone police violence against people of color (any color).

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The owners are white. I have black children, which has led to years of listening, reading, and a change of my overall worldview, as I no longer think of things in my own best interest, but instead the interests of my childeren so I choose to listen to the people who have lived the live experiences most closely related to that what my children can expect as they grow up.

 

For those of you who are parents, that probably helps you understand more than a little bit of my anger over this issue.

I don’t think you have to be a parent of black children to feel anger over this issue, but I understand what you mean, and why you are particularly angry.

 

The owners are white...are the moderators also? But also, that was the half humor question.

 

What about the serious question? Have you verified that all of your owners and moderators met the standard that was asked of Kepler?

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The owners are white. I have black children, which has led to years of listening, reading, and a change of my overall worldview, as I no longer think of things in my own best interest, but instead the interests of my childeren so I choose to listen to the people who have lived the live experiences most closely related to that what my children can expect as they grow up.

 

For those of you who are parents, that probably helps you understand more than a little bit of my anger over this issue.

 

Brock the only people who don't understand your anger would be sociopathic.  Your children have every right to grow up safe and not have to fear the police.  You (and I and the owners and whoever else) have every right to be angry

 

 

This. I'm not convinced that it was racially motivated at all. Police brutallity, yes for sure. My hunch is Chauvin would have done the same thing to anyone else at this particular moment. Which brings me to another point. Until people of color, whether they are black, brown, yellow, red or white learn not to abuse alcohol, drugs, tobacco, etc and learn not to break laws like pass funny money and create a public disturbance and then resist arrest their lives will continue to go nowhere fast.

 

So I was going to then say that Brock's anger towards us was misplaced but sweetmusicviola16 effed that up.  Good job! I would suggest you think about changing your name to delmonyoung21 (there are other twins that probably effed up games but Delmon''s the only one who comes to mind)

 

No sweetmusic the fact that you are not convinced is a tragedy.The officers at no time were in danger because Floyd was cuffed .  If George Floyd had been 5'7 150 lbs white guy he would not be dead. Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's throat after he was unconscious. He knew if he did it long enough Floyd would be dead. If Floyd had been me, a woman or an old asian man, he would be alive right now.  George Floyd was black and huge and Chauvin was going to put him in his place. 

 

Excluding the aforementioned sweetmusic I think your anger towards a lot of us is misplaced.  

 

i think if the owners had asked the TD community to donate the amount of what we'd spend on a game, I think with the marketing skills of the owners and the rabid loyalty a lot of your readers have for Twins Daily, you guys could have raised a lot of money to help rebuild Minneapolis. I think we would have surprised you and the rest of the owners. maybe a lot of us might be better than you give us credit for.

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I don’t think you have to be a parent of black children to feel anger over this issue, but I understand what you mean, and why you are particularly angry.

 

The owners are white...are the moderators also? But also, that was the half humor question.

 

What about the serious question? Have you verified that all of your owners and moderators met the standard that was asked of Kepler?

How can one verify something that is constantly happening?

 

Have moderators in the past made such comments? Yes. Have they (and me) been chastised and corrected their behavior? I’d like to think yes but I don’t read every interaction on this forum.

 

But one thing I can guarantee is that the TD moderators work their asses off and hold themselves to an incredibly high standard. Nobody gets it right all the time but we at least try and hopefully own up to those times we’re wrong.

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victim blaming is really bad look. Please don’t post this type of thing.

I could really care less what I "look like". Victim blaming? How about people start to take responsibility for their actions. Floyd losing his life was wrong. Chauvin committed an errounious act. But Floyd was drunk, high, passing bad cash and resisting arrest. He obviously hadn't learned. This is the guy who in 2009 held a gun in the abdomen of a preganant woman during a break in. I'm not holding this guy up as a martyr or a hero. If you don't like my opinion delete them then. 

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Brock the only people who don't understand your anger would be sociopathic.  Your children have every right to grow up safe and not have to fear the police.  You (and I and the owners and whoever else) have every right to be angry

 

 

 

So I was going to then say that Brock's anger towards us was misplaced but sweetmusicviola16 effed that up.  Good job! I would suggest you think about changing your name to delmonyoung21 (there are other twins that probably effed up games but Delmon''s the only one who comes to mind)

 

No sweetmusic the fact that you are not convinced is a tragedy.The officers at no time were in danger because Floyd was cuffed .  If George Floyd had been 5'7 150 lbs white guy he would not be dead. Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's throat after he was unconscious. He knew if he did it long enough Floyd would be dead. If Floyd had been me, a woman or an old asian man, he would be alive right now.  George Floyd was black and huge and Chauvin was going to put him in his place. 

 

Excluding the aforementioned sweetmusic I think your anger towards a lot of us is misplaced.  

 

i think if the owners had asked the TD community to donate the amount of what we'd spend on a game, I think with the marketing skills of the owners and the rabid loyalty a lot of your readers have for Twins Daily, you guys could have raised a lot of money to help rebuild Minneapolis. I think we would have surprised you and the rest of the owners. maybe a lot of us might be better than you give us credit for.

I hope your understanding is that I'm not angry at everyone, but at the fact that people not only ignore the issue - which I welcome discussion over - but that there is open resistance to my own children living a life free of fear and agression, which is what we want for all our children.

 

Asking for money is nice but it doesn't fix the actual problem, which Nick addressed. The problem is that we, as white people, simply don't care enough. Caring and fighting against this issue is worth more than either I or you could afford. Fighting against this is what causes change for literally millions of Americans.

 

I can and will give thousands of dollars in the coming months. That is a drop in the bucket in the ocean of pain experienced by black Americans.

 

What needs to change is our attitude; that black people deserve to be able to do the same things white people do every day and that attitude change will take work. Not financial donations, but introspection about who we are as white Americans and how we've failed as a culture. It's a hard, ugly look. It hurts a lot. 

 

We can all agree that black people earn less, suffer more, and commit more crime than white Americans. This is a reality.

 

At the end of the day, if you go up the logic chain far enough, it comes down to this:

 

1. Black people are inferior to white people

 

2. There are institutions preventing black people from reaching and achieving the same goals as white people

There literally is no third option. Think about that long and hard. There is no third option. You either believe one or the other.

 

There is no third option.

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I could really care less what I "look like". Victim blaming? How about people start to take responsibility for their actions. Floyd losing his life was wrong. Chauvin committed an errounious act. But Floyd was drunk, high, passing bad cash and resisting arrest. He obviously hadn't learned. This is the guy who in 2009 held a gun in the abdomen of a preganant woman during a break in. I'm not holding this guy up as a martyr or a hero. If you don't like my opinion delete them then.

Erroneous act? Chauvin committed a criminal act. Murder is a crime. Chauvin will get a chance to face his accuser in court hopefully go to jail, and when his sentence is up, leave, try to start his life over.

 

I never said anything about Floyd’s character, frankly that’s not relevant. Floyd may well be a criminal, that doesn’t make any of this OK. Floyd died, how much more responsibility can a man take?

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Erroneous act? Chauvin committed a criminal act. Murder is a crime. Chauvin will get a chance to face his accuser in court hopefully go to jail, and when his sentence is up, leave, try to start his life over.

Except in the case of murder, that never happens.

 

Which is why so many people are so angry right now.

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Nobody gets it right all the time but we at least try and hopefully own up to those times we’re wrong.

So, they don’t get an article written about them? They are forgiven, with the hope that they’ll do their best and admit when they are wrong?

 

You don’t need to answer. You should, because you’re smart enough to know that you just defended a group of people with the exact logic I and others have been arguing for Kepler and those who are less vocal than you wish, but you don’t need to.

 

This is my last post. I wasn’t going to reply anymore but the post from another commenter about an opinion not mattering because it was wrong was too asinine to let slide. I’m pretty sure it has been established that I’m allowed to call a comment asinine.

 

I admire your passion, and Nick’s. I really do. But I think it’s misapplied. That’s just me.

 

Be well, everyone. Do your best.

 

Scott Zilka

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So, they don’t get an article written about them? They are forgiven, with the hope that they’ll do their best and admit when they are wrong?

You don’t need to answer. 

Honestly, did you read Nick's article? Did you see how much he stressed that Max Kepler is not a bad person?

 

****ing hell, I'm so tired and angry about fighting this battle over and over for years. I'm so goddamned livid that white people can't see the fact that the moment a person is even SUGGESTED to do something wrong, even if it's clarified that it was without malice, that all of this dogpile happens on the author instead of the point the author is trying to make.

 

Yet so many of you continue to prove the reason systemic racism exists. And I will continue to be mad as hell at you for making my kids' future less than it should be.

 

I'm done with the semantics, I'm done with the whataboutisms, I'm done with talking about anything except the problem at hand.

 

Go to hell, and good night.

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I don’t think you have to be a parent of black children to feel anger over this issue, but I understand what you mean, and why you are particularly angry.

The owners are white...are the moderators also? But also, that was the half humor question.

What about the serious question? Have you verified that all of your owners and moderators met the standard that was asked of Kepler?

 

I think I'm one of two moderators who represents a 'diverse' demographic being the lone female on the moderator team. While I can't know what PoC go through, and have their entire lives, I do know what it's like to be disrespected, demeaned, disregarded and dismissed solely because of my gender. How's that for alliteration? Being on this site has been TOUGH at times. TOUGH. But I'm tough, because I've had to be, so I've stuck it out, mostly because I love baseball. But there have been many times i've just wanted to pack it up and leave ... ask Brock, because I've written to him dozens of times over the years, 'I quit!' And the sucker I am, I let him talk me into sticking around. :) Remember all those threads about Sano and the accusations of sexual assault? Yeah, the things being said about women in those threads were horrible to read, especially when it went into areas about women in general and what they hope to gain by crying rape. How about the anonymity I used to have, yet a couple of posters felt it necessary to determine my actual identity and broadcast it on another site. While i kind of laughed at that, and what a dumb thing to do, and rolled my eyes at the idiocy, but still ... there was nefarious intent behind it. Good times. We now have policies regarding that. There have been other women here and there on this website, and more recently we've added a few more ... but it has not been the easiest road being in the minority. There aren't many who really, truly 'get it' and have easily dismissed my concerns. But it's never intentional, which makes it that much more difficult to call out. It has also been difficult navigating complaints from other posters here who feel unwelcome here because of mostly casual, unintentional biases or unintentional stereotyping. It hasn't come up a lot, but it does come up. No one ever goes out of their way intentionally to offend someone, but yet things get said in jest or casually, without real regard or mindfulness about perspective from another 'demographic'. And yet, when we try to have a discussion, it is usually met with defensiveness, I didn't mean it that way, lighten up, you're being overly sensitive or this isn't the place to talk about that. How do you deal with actions that are so unintentional yet cause discomfort or hurt? We have this line in our comments policy:

 

"Please be mindful that comments relating to racial, cultural, religious, national, gender and sexual identity can be offensive, ditto locker room talk, even when there is no disrespectful intent."

 

It calls for all of us to just think a little, try to think of something from someone else's perspective. Am I perfect? Heck no. We're all only human, and I get it wrong, too often ... but I do really try. It's tiring ... either side of it ... it's tiring. Really listening is tiring, taking action that is met with disdain is tiring, putting up with disrespect is tiring. Many times it's just easier to go along with it. But I think trying to think a little more broadly, to maybe go out of our comfort zones just a little, to try and read what we post through someone else's eyes, just might make it a better world. One little website at a time.

 

While I don't condone violence, at all, while I've looked on in horror and heartache of all that's transpired, I understand the frustration because of the alliteration I mentioned above.

 

It's all I got.

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I think I'm one of two moderators who represents a 'diverse' demographic being the lone female on the moderator team. While I can't know what PoC go through, and have their entire lives, I do know what it's like to be disrespected, demeaned, disregarded and dismissed solely because of my gender. How's that for alliteration? Being on this site has been TOUGH at times. TOUGH. But I'm tough, because I've had to be, so I've stuck it out, mostly because I love baseball. But there have been many times i've just wanted to pack it up and leave ... ask Brock, because I've written to him dozens of times over the years, 'I quit!' And the sucker I am, I let him talk me into sticking around. :) Remember all those threads about Sano and the accusations of sexual assault? Yeah, the things being said about women in that thread were horrible to read, especially when it went into areas about women in general and what they hope to gain by crying rape. How about the anonymity I used to have, yet a couple of posters felt it necessary to determine my actual identity and broadcast it on another site. While i kind of laughed at that, and what a dumb thing to do, and rolled my eyes at the idiocy, but still ... there was nefarious intent behind it. Good times. We now have policies regarding that. There have been other women here and there on this website, and more recently we've added a few more ... but it has not been the easiest road being in the minority. There aren't many who really, truly 'get it' and have easily dismissed my concerns. But it's never intentional, which makes it that much more difficult to call out. It has also been difficult navigating complaints from other posters here who feel unwelcome here because of mostly casual, unintentional biases or unintentional stereotyping. It hasn't come up a lot, but it does come up. No one ever goes out of their way intentionally to offend someone, but yet things get said in jest or casually, without real regard or mindfulness about perspective from another 'demographic'. And yet, when we try to have a discussion, it is usually met with defensiveness, I didn't mean it that way, lighten up, you're being overly sensitive or this isn't the place to talk about that. How do you deal with actions that are so unintentional yet cause discomfort or hurt? We have this line in our comments policy:

 

"Please be mindful that comments relating to racial, cultural, religious, national, gender and sexual identity can be offensive, ditto locker room talk, even when there is no disrespectful intent."

 

It calls for all of us to just think a little, try to think of something from someone else's perspective. Am I perfect? Heck no. We're all only human, and I get it wrong, too often ... but I do really try. It's tiring ... either side of it ... it's tiring. Really listening is tiring, taking action that is met with disdain is tiring, putting up with disrespect is tiring. Many times it's just easier to go along with it. But I think trying to think a little more broadly, to maybe go out of our comfort zones just a little, to try and read what we post through someone else's eyes, just might make it a better world. One little website at a time.

 

While I don't condone violence, at all, while I've looked on in horror and heartache of all that's transpired, I understand the frustration because of the alliteration I mentioned above.

 

It's all I got.

I teared up while reading this. 

 

Thank you for all that you have done. I can't even imagine what it took to do all the work you have done.

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What's the old cliche? Don't meet your heros you'll only be disappointed? That was my thought when all this came out about Kepler.

Or maybe understand that your heroes are also only human.

 

And I still <3 Rosie and always will! No matter what!

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Or maybe understand that your heroes are also only human.

 

And I still <3 Rosie and always will! No matter what!

Yeah, cause I'm pretty, pretty sure we don't want to hear Rosario's thoughts on gay marriage.

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Yeah, cause I'm pretty, pretty sure we don't want to hear Rosario's thoughts on gay marriage.

Point taken. And let's not go there. We've raised enough issues for one week.

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What's the old cliche? Don't meet your heros you'll only be disappointed? That was my thought when all this came out about Kepler.

Again, I have absolutely no ill will toward Kepler, this article was written to show how we can all be better, not as some condmenation of Max.

 

Christ, how many times does that have to be repeated?

MAX KEPLER IS NOT A BAD PERSON

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I hope your understanding is that I'm not angry at everyone, but at the fact that people not only ignore the issue - which I welcome discussion over - but that there is open resistance to my own children living a life free of fear and agression, which is what we want for all our children.

 

It wasn't my understanding at all.  When i heard "i'm mad as hell at a lot of you" I lumped myself in with the ones you were angry with. I've grown accustomed to really good writing on this site so I took you at your word and took exception to it.

 

 

Asking for money is nice but it doesn't fix the actual problem, which Nick addressed. The problem is that we, as white people, simply don't care enough. Caring and fighting against this issue is worth more than either I or you could afford. Fighting against this is what causes change for literally millions of Americans.

 

I would never suggest that Twins Daily raising money would end racism. But I wouldn't go to the hundreds of people that brought thousands of meal kits to Sanford Middle school that this was a drop in the bucket either. Was it insignificant in the larger scheme? You would be correct in saying that but you wouldn't be right. I would imagine that many of the people who brought food left feeling good, they had done their part and now let's get back to our normal lives. But there were a few that that thought for the first time "I'd like to do more".  That's small but it's progress.

 

 

What needs to change is our attitude; that black people deserve to be able to do the same things white people do every day and that attitude change will take work. Not financial donations, but introspection about who we are as white Americans and how we've failed as a culture. It's a hard, ugly look. It hurts a lot.

 

100% agree

 

But I believe that we measure large victories by the sum of our small victories. Rarely do we have the benefit of a radical and sweeping change in a free society. 

 

I took a class when I was getting my master's in special ed on diversity and racial disparity. The professor had us take a test that would measure our level of racism. My test score was ok not great. But I remember one of the results of the test said that I was more comfortable around white people than I was around black people. when I told the professor that I didn't think I agreed with the result, he said "I get it Jim, my result told me I was more comfortable around white people too". My professor was a black man active in Black Lives Matter. 

 

What's my point? My professor used that as a point  of connection between he and I to help open my eyes. He taught the class with empathy and respect with the hope that we would see the areas that we needed to change and the areas we could help change when we were teaching. It worked.

 

 

But I know, based on the demographics, that our site's audience is predominately white, and relatively affluent. We are the voices needed most in this fight.

 

So while I have my disagreements with Nick on things he stated subsequently, I agree with this statement.  The problem is that many people don't know how to be a voice. Most people won't be able to figure it out on their own.  

 

So my suggestion was probably poorly presented. The end result of getting the TD community involved in helping is not to raise money and end racism. The suggestion was to help affect the community you built and empower that community. And like Sanford, many might participate and think "well that was cool! Did my part now what's on Netflix?" But a small few may see it as a first step. 

 

Anyway it was just an idea

 

As a white, slightly affluent and fat (I know Nick inferred fat I KNOW IT!!) reader, I personally want to help but I'm not sure how. I will say marching in a protest scares the s**t out of me with this pandemic. I've been praying (not thoughts and prayers crap actual praying). 

 

I have thoughts on the rest of your post Brock but it's late.  I'll say a prayer for your kids if that's ok with you.

 

 

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I would never suggest that Twins Daily raising money would end racism. But I wouldn't go to the hundreds of people that brought thousands of meal kits to Sanford Middle school that this was a drop in the bucket either. Was it insignificant in the larger scheme? You would be correct in saying that but you wouldn't be right. I would imagine that many of the people who brought food left feeling good, they had done their part and now let's get back to our normal lives. But there were a few that that thought for the first time "I'd like to do more".  That's small but it's progress.

First off, I want to thank you for your brilliant post. It was wonderful.

 

But I want to point out that donations, even as substantial as they might be, cannot replace actual change.

 

I, personally, have radically changed two peoples' lives in the most fundamental way possible. There's a good chance i'll be doing that for a third person soon.

All the while, I've been donating considerable sums of money to various causes.

But realize that the two lives I've changed are literally worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to society at large.

Money and donations are nice. Actual change in personal perspective, voting, and individual interaction is worth hundreds of times more than money can offer.

 

Think different, be better, that's literally the best gift we can give. When a black person dies, hear their cry. When a mother cries that they can't feed their baby, hear them. When a man cries they can't find a job and don't know what to do, hear them.

 

It shouldn't be that hard to ask people to hear other people, yet here I am.

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