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Max Kepler and the Cost of Silence


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You are a good writer. But this differs from your restaurant analogy. Here, there was a sign in the window of the restaurant that you must have read before you came in. And you were a click away from a different restaurant (thread or website).

 

I get your point about not coming to TD for political discussion. I go to ESPN for baseball, not hockey. If I accidentally end up with hockey then I click on baseball.

 

Bottom line -- TD is the best place to discuss Twins baseball. Our community has made this so, and that includes the moderators and hundreds of members. So please just treat political threads like I treat hockey -- not something to care about and something that can be clicked away easily.

I’m not sure the “if you don’t like it, you can leave line” is really a good tack to take. Because then people can just flip it around and point at the protesters and say the same thing. Would you want someone on here dropping” well if the protesters dont like how policing is done in the country they can move somewhere else”? Just my two pennies
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You are a good writer.

 

THANK YOU! That is honestly the nicest thing I've heard all week! I haven't even read what else you wrote! 

 

Just kidding glunn.  I actually agree with you.  I'm somewhat proud that my garbage analogy was, in fact, garbage.  Years of listening to Gleeman and the Geek have not been wasted.  

 

I'm actually not that bothered by the topic being broached on a baseball site as much as I think it was really mishandled by the owners.  I use the bad analogy of the restaurant server because I get why some people were critical.  

 

I take exception to the assumptions the owners make when they say "I'm mad as hell at a lot of you" and "much of this readership rarely makes a difference".    In a way, I'm agreeing with Nick in the fact that I didn't want to be complicit in the owners assessment of their readers. 

 

Thanks again for making my day!

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I'd like to call shenanigans on that one Nick.  I've done a good amount of analytics for my clients.  If you have a statistic that backs up this statement I'd love to read it and I will take back my call of shenanigans.

We did a survey to gain insight on our readership demographics for advertisers. Granted it was several years back, but I have no reason to believe it has changed significantly, especially given the general demographics of Twins fandom.

 

You want me to go back and dig up the actual statistics (which I'm pretty sure we made public) or is this satisfactory to take back your call of shenanigans?

 

 

I’ve read every single one of them. I don’t think you know how you are coming across to well reasoned people. 

With respect, you don't come off as "well reasoned" when you claim an article is "based on flimsy information" because we don't know how Kepler feels. This isn't about how he feels. It's about what he did (or more accurately, what he didn't do). That's literally stated in the title.

Here's the "flimsy information" this article was based on: I was sitting on my couch, watching images of the city of Minneapolis burning on my TV, when I happened upon a carefree Instagram post from Kepler saying he's "Not into politics," and then I started working backwards. I'm writing about my reaction to that experience as a fan and a Minnesota resident, who pays considerable money to watch the man play baseball.

 

He might have done all the right things afterward. He might have had all the good intentions in the world. But what he did in that moment is reflective of what far too many people have been doing for many years. "Not my problem, peace."

 

There are plenty of comfortable white men across this state and country who are every bit as oblivious to the severity of this issue as a millionaire 27-year-old from Germany (who should've known better). And that's why I wrote this. There's no flimsy information. It's all in front of us, Linus.

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We did a survey to gain insight on our readership demographics for advertisers. Granted it was several years back, but I have no reason to believe it has changed significantly, especially given the general demographics of Twins fandom.

 

You want me to go back and dig up the actual statistics (which I'm pretty sure we made public) or is this satisfactory to take back your call of shenanigans?

 

 

 

 

Well I'll be honest, it wouldn't be the first time I had to take back a shenanigans.  But yes I'd like a little more clarification.  You say that the survey showed "much your readership falls into a category that is able to make a difference but rarely does." First of all ALL of your readership is able to make a difference.  Secondly Is there a standard definition of what "making a difference" means?   How did the survey describe what making a difference would look like?  And you are now suggesting that the general demographics of Twins Fandom is also capable of making a difference but rarely does?  What did your advertisers say when you told them most of your readers were apathetic and selfish? (I'm paraphrasing)

 

Yeah I'd need more data on that before I take it back.  

 

Secondly

 

Users – 45,589 (up 168% from 2018)
Sessions – 105,910 (up 100% from 2018)
Page Views – 285,486 (up 59% rom 2018)

 

That's your May 2019 stats.  Huge jump in users.  If your "facts" are based on several years back, statistically your information is not only insulting but outdated. You need a new survey

 

and final point.  Unless you hold the opinion that people cannot change, your argument holds no water.  The MMPI (Minnesota multi phasic inventory) is the best survey of an individual ever created. It's also the most widely used.  The accuracy is better than any other psychological test out there. (If you are unfamiliar with it, it's the one that asks 600 yes or no questions) If you have ever taken an MMPI and it was reviewed by a competent analyst, they could describe your personality to a T. But if  if you took it  more than two years ago, guess what? It's completely invalid.  Why?  Because all but 2% (way outside the bell curve) of people change over time.  Let me say that again, people change over time

 

So I am genuinely curious about what the question was that got "most are capable of making a difference but rarely do". Especially in light of advertising. But however the questions were phrased,

  • there are glaring problems with the results 
  • your demo has more than doubled in size 
  • the results are invalid due to the survey being outdated. 

Jim

 

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I’m not sure the “if you don’t like it, you can leave line” is really a good tack to take. Because then people can just flip it around and point at the protesters and say the same thing. Would you want someone on here dropping” well if the protesters dont like how policing is done in the country they can move somewhere else”? Just my two pennies

That's clever, but my point was that people who don't want to see politics on TD can easily click back to baseball. That seems a far cry from telling people to move to a different country. 

 

In the old days the phrase was "love it or leave it." If you don't like the Vietnam War then move elsewhere. It turned out that the Vietnam war was a big fraud and senseless waste of lives and dollars. 

 

My response to love it or leave it has always been that I want to talk about our country's flaws so that we can address them. I love our country, but serious flaws can't be fixed without admitting that we have serious flaws.

 

Again, my message to Mr. Fellows was that if you don't like "hockey" then keep in mind that the vast majority of our threads deal with Twins baseball, and we do it well because our community is, in general, respectful of opposing views. I was soliciting Mr. Fellows to STAY not leave.

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THANK YOU! That is honestly the nicest thing I've heard all week! I haven't even read what else you wrote! 

 

Just kidding glunn.  I actually agree with you.  I'm somewhat proud that my garbage analogy was, in fact, garbage.  Years of listening to Gleeman and the Geek have not been wasted.  

 

I'm actually not that bothered by the topic being broached on a baseball site as much as I think it was really mishandled by the owners.  I use the bad analogy of the restaurant server because I get why some people were critical.  

 

I take exception to the assumptions the owners make when they say "I'm mad as hell at a lot of you" and "much of this readership rarely makes a difference".    In a way, I'm agreeing with Nick in the fact that I didn't want to be complicit in the owners assessment of their readers. 

 

Thanks again for making my day!

You are welcome. I can understand why you feel the way that you do. I can also understand Nick's desire to make the world a better place. This is a tough time with COVID plus this, and I would hope that as fellow Twins fans we can all cut each other a lot more slack. 

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Serious question, are you guys planning on donating the money you're getting from the ads I'm seeing on this article to an organization that's trying to affect change? Seems like it would be appropriate. Also is there a list anywhere of such organizations so people could donate?

Tom F posted one on page 7 of this thread I think.

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Different situation, different time.  Societal issues from the pandemic to uprisings is infringing on baseball.  This is a baseball topic, with one of our players.  I don't agree with all of the premise, but I understand it.  I've always been one, that you aren't forced to read this thread, and obviously you disagreed with the post.  That is fine I can understand it, but to dismiss it all together is not improving any situation.  If thats not what you come here for, open up the other 99% of posts and everyone will be in a better place once baseball hopefully opens back up again. 

We'll have to agree to disagree.  Calling Kepler out for not vocally supporting the author's societal, political position is inherently political and, given this site's avowed premise, not worth the click.

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You are painting the many with a brush that is justified for only the few.

Ah, so you are taking it personally.

 

The corruption of the system is reflected in the comfortable ignorance of people like me, and probably you, while a small proportion of law enforcement does the dirty work.

 

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That's clever, but my point was that people who don't want to see politics on TD can easily click back to baseball. That seems a far cry from telling people to move to a different country.

 

In the old days the phrase was "love it or leave it." If you don't like the Vietnam War then move elsewhere. It turned out that the Vietnam war was a big fraud and senseless waste of lives and dollars.

 

My response to love it or leave it has always been that I want to talk about our country's flaws so that we can address them. I love our country, but serious flaws can't be fixed without admitting that we have serious flaws.

 

Again, my message to Mr. Fellows was that if you don't like "hockey" then keep in mind that the vast majority of our threads deal with Twins baseball, and we do it well because our community is, in general, respectful of opposing views. I was soliciting Mr. Fellows to STAY not leave.

I wasn’t disagreeing with you on the content but was pointing out that there was probably a better way to form your thoughts because, yes, what you said was most certainly “love it or leave it”
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Actually, it's Kepler's right.  And it's boring to read one beseech another to be "better" when he's merely exercising his right to be left alone.

So you agree with the post that kicked off this whole discussion. Nick Nelson said it plainly, "If Kepler wants to stand on the sidelines, defining himself simply as a ballplayer while rejecting any personal stake in the situation, that is his prerogative."

 

I don't really see a purpose in going around in circles like this.

 

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Ah, so you are taking it personally, and your wall of words reflects trying to rationalize that.

 

The corruption of the system is reflected in the comfortable ignorance of people like me, and probably you, while a small proportion of law enforcement does the dirty work.

Well considering you know absolutely nothing about me that is an interesting response to my request for evidence. I wasn’t actually taking it personally until you tried to use psychoanalysis through an internet post. Thanks for admitting that you can’t actually prove what you're asserting is true. You really didn’t help out the cause there.

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So you agree with the post that kicked off this whole discussion. Nick Nelson said it plainly, "If Kepler wants to stand on the sidelines, defining himself simply as a ballplayer while rejecting any personal stake in the situation, that is his prerogative."

 

I don't really see a purpose in going around in circles like this.
 

Ashbury,  I think the ultimate issue is this: most of us understand the implications of what is going on around us.  However to put the frustration and some point of blame on Kepler just doesn't sit right with many of us.  Nick, you and Brock can back track and say no its his right,and that is not our intention, but your post above doesn't match with the other 15 lines in Nicks original post essentially disparaging Max, and Brock has made it very clear as much as he does not want to place blame, he thinks he dropped the ball and essentially "deserved" this thread.  

 

This is my last post on the topic, as all of us at some point need a little tap on the shoulder to say as my daughter sings every day "Let it go."  :)  It doesn't mean we can't continue to fight for equality and make things better, but in my world that includes building each other up, possibly causing some positive change, but also realizing others have opinions that I don't agree with and that's ok, ultimately I think that is where this thread falls short.      

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Well I'll be honest, it wouldn't be the first time I had to take back a shenanigans.  But yes I'd like a little more clarification.  You say that the survey showed "much your readership falls into a category that is able to make a difference but rarely does." First of all ALL of your readership is able to make a difference.  Secondly Is there a standard definition of what "making a difference" means?   How did the survey describe what making a difference would look like?  And you are now suggesting that the general demographics of Twins Fandom is also capable of making a difference but rarely does?  

Jim: This was addressed in the article and is a lot more simple than you are making it out to be. The demographic I'm talking about is and relatively affluent white people who are less affected by the issues at hand. There is a tendency for individuals in this position to tune out because it's not something that impacts them personally. To me, that is what Kepler's message represented. In neither case do I think it's malicious or reflective of immorality; in fact I think it's often subconscious. For that reason I wanted to create some awareness on the issue. 

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Jim: This was addressed in the article and is a lot more simple than you are making it out to be. The demographic I'm talking about is and relatively affluent white people who are less affected by the issues at hand. There is a tendency for individuals in this position to tune out because it's not something that impacts them personally. To me, that is what Kepler's message represented. In neither case do I think it's malicious or reflective of immorality; in fact I think it's often subconscious. For that reason I wanted to create some awareness on the issue.

Your best post on the topic Nick. I completely agree with that message. I’m not going to judge Kepler rather I am going to figure what I can do to create change. First and foremost this will now become my top litmus test for any candidate in the coming election.

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I read the article in the Athletic that featured a conversation with several ball players including Torii Hunter and LaTroy Hawkins. First a little background, I am a 70 year old white guy. I retired fro  the US Navy as a Master Chief Petty Officer. For those who don't know that is an E-9 or the highest rank for an enlisted person other than the head enlisted person of the service who works directly for the head of each service. After retirement I work as a General Manager/ District Manager for a large restaurant chain. I lived with and worked for and with people of all races most of my adult life. To get back to what I started, I learned from the article that I did not know exactly what "white privilege" meant. I could not understand how I was privileged as I had worked tirelessly for everything I have. What i learned was that I have never had to fear that just driving down the street I didn't have to fear that I would be pulled over because of my race. I didn't have to fear that I would be treated differently (ie. worse) because of my race. I learned that that is not the case for black people. I guess I am privileged and I hope that someday, everyone will be privileged in the same way. If this offends anyone, sorry. Deal with it. I am old but still able to learn and hope I can continue to do just that.

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Jim: This was addressed in the article and is a lot more simple than you are making it out to be. The demographic I'm talking about is and relatively affluent white people who are less affected by the issues at hand. There is a tendency for individuals in this position to tune out because it's not something that impacts them personally. To me, that is what Kepler's message represented. In neither case do I think it's malicious or reflective of immorality; in fact I think it's often subconscious. For that reason I wanted to create some awareness on the issue. 

 

Nick I have no opinion on Max Kepler's response.  I haven't addressed it once. 

 

Secondly, you said you did a survey.  Now I'm going to hazard a guess that the survey told you nothing about "making a difference" or apathy and everything about the age, ethnicity and levels of income. With that information you then drew the conclusion that a large part of your readership can make a difference but rarely does.  You said your survey shows supporting evidence of this "fact" and you would provide the evidence.  "It's simpler than that" suggests that I'm right and you have no supporting evidence to how much your readership wants to make a difference. 

 

 

As a point of fact, I happen to know that much of this site's readership falls into a category that is able to make a difference but rarely does.

 

My shenanigans stands

 

If instead you had said, "I think historically there is a tendency for white affluent males to tune out when the issue doesn't directly impact them" I wouldn't be posting.  

 

You're normally a great writer. You normally rely on irrefutable statistics (and then people argue those statistics anyway) This relies on opinion masked as fact and is pushed by anger.  

 

The two logical questions to address your stance is 

 

  • What does making a difference mean? Seriously what does Nick Nelson and the owners think making a difference means?
  • What is rarely?

Instead of telling 46k+ readers that you know that most of us won't try to make a difference, Instead of Brock telling 46k+ readers he's mad as hell at a lot of us, the owners could have not shown disdain for their followers and done something positive.

 

46k+ readers respect what you and the other owners write Nick.  I respect and admire that you and the owners are passionate about getting real change so that african americans don't have to live in fear in the Twin Cities.  But imagine what might have happened if you had said "If this doesn't upset you, let me help you understand why it should.  If it does upset you, and you can't figure out a way to do something, would you do something with the TD community?"

 

Instead you said that you knew for a fact that a majority of us wouldn't care. 

 

You don't know me Nick (the beer offer is a valid one) and you might just consider me a troll since I don't post much on the forum.  But you said "to be silent is to be complicit" and I didn't want to be complicit with being told by all the owners that I and others don't want make any positive changes.  

 

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Maybe Max’s parents encouraged him to pursue various forms of critical thinking, scientific method or business decision making. Perhaps he wanted to validate the assumption this was racially motivated before opening his mouth. Was there any evidence in the first couple days that this was racially motivated other than Chauvin was white? Intelligent or even reasonable people validate their assumptions and conclusions before taking a strong position. Reasonable people don't burn down innocent peoples homes no matter what. 

 

One could argue Max demonstrated better judgment than Sharpton, Jackson, and others who fanned the flames which resulted in massive violence. I am not hearing any criticism of their inability to rally peaceful demonstration. Perhaps Max was so wise as to understand the situation was already dangerous and he did not want to add fuel to the fire. I sure would not blame him if he decided to wait for reliable information and also wait to see if appropriate charges were levied against Chauvin and the other officers that were present.

 

Running off in this type of emotionally fueled rampage and indictment of everyone that is not willing to universally condemn all police officers is much more harmful than Max Kepler refusing to take a political position. The masses don’t understand the problem nearly as well as they think they do. There are people that possess a long list of credentials on this and related issues. That’s who I want to hear from. I really don’t give a **** what Max Kepler has to say. Maybe that’s another problem we should address. That is people listening to people because they have name recognition instead of listening to people with expertise.

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This is just where we fundamentally disagree. It's not about me wanting players to be heroes, it's about me recognizing that someone like Kepler DOES have a large platform and IS influential in this community. Young people look up to him. Fans pay attention to him. He has 67K followers on Instagram.

This is where you completely lost me, maybe he was putting his toe in the water wearing that mask because he believes blue lives matter?

Which isn't what you wanted him to say or show, so you DON'T want him to be influential unless it happens to align with your views.

Just be honest with your readers and yourself, you don't give two rats arse what they players say or do, just as long as they do or say what you want them to say.

 

Look at Drew Bress said "will never agree with anybody disrespecting the flag of the United States of America or our country"

and he is being destroyed because he said he will never agree with somebody, he didn't say they didn't have the right, he didn't say he hated them for doing it, he just said he couldn't agree with them.

FYI - owners of this site, you are on the side attacking Brees.

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Look at Drew Bress said "will never agree with anybody disrespecting the flag of the United States of America or our country"

and he is being destroyed because he said he will never agree with somebody, he didn't say they didn't have the right, he didn't say he hated them for doing it, he just said he couldn't agree with them.

FYI - owners of this site, you are on the side attacking Brees.

Drew Brees got destroyed because he once again took kneeling at the national anthem as disrespecting the flag and troops. Same stance he took in 2016. When he’s been told countless times kneeling is representing the police brutality against black people.

 

He’s a white guy who’s way too comfortable in his bubble and refused to listen and learn from others.

 

Drew Brees with his family history gets to weave this patriotic story of what the flag means to him. And he’s ignorant of the fact that many people look at that same flag and see something completely different. He needs to open up his eyes and realize his grandpa didn’t have the same experience coming home from the war as others.

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Drew Brees got destroyed because he once again took kneeling at the national anthem as disrespecting the flag and troops. Same stance he took in 2016. When he’s been told countless times kneeling is representing the police brutality against black people.

He’s a white guy who’s way too comfortable in his bubble and refused to listen and learn from others.

Drew Brees with his family history gets to weave this patriotic story of what the flag means to him. And he’s ignorant of the fact that many people look at that same flag and see something completely different. He needs to open up his eyes and realize his grandpa didn’t have the same experience coming home from the war as others.

thanks, you proved the point, his opinion doesn't matter because it differs for yours.

 

His problem is I quote "He’s a white guy who’s way too comfortable in his bubble and refused to listen and learn from other"

 

I always forgot if you disagree with the righteous you are ignorant (your word) and need to open up his eyes.

 

Or maybe, just maybe we could accept that it is his feelings and his opinion and also respect the people that have different feelings and opinion.

 

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thanks, you proved the point, his opinion doesn't matter because it differs for yours.

 

His problem is I quote "He’s a white guy who’s way too comfortable in his bubble and refused to listen and learn from other"

 

I always forgot if you disagree with the righteous you are ignorant (your word) and need to open up his eyes.

 

Or maybe, just maybe we could accept that it is his feelings and his opinion and also respect the people that have different feelings and opinion.

 

His opinion doesn't matter because it's wrong. I didn't think this was hard to understand. Athletes have been saying for years exactly why they kneel during the national anthem. It's his fault for not listening.  

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Drew Brees got destroyed because he once again took kneeling at the national anthem as disrespecting the flag and troops. Same stance he took in 2016. When he’s been told countless times kneeling is representing the police brutality against black people.

He’s a white guy who’s way too comfortable in his bubble and refused to listen and learn from others.

Drew Brees with his family history gets to weave this patriotic story of what the flag means to him. And he’s ignorant of the fact that many people look at that same flag and see something completely different. He needs to open up his eyes and realize his grandpa didn’t have the same experience coming home from the war as others.

Adding to this as slightly different, how old is Brees vs Kepler - 41 vs 27.    Brees in my opinion has been around the block and should have known better, this was fully intentional on his part (kepler unwittingly walked into it).  However his reasoning is different than what all the other players are upset about.  His opinion is political beliefs/concerns should be separated from saluting the flag which he sees as honoring A. the flag B. the military.   Makes sense right.  He made no claims about social injustice yet that is what every one and his brother took it as yesterday and he got crucified and had to apologize today.  We are so easily angered, slow to reconcile, and generally unwilling to look at others belief systems.  I am not sure I like the whole group think mentality and trying to force everyone's opinions into the same box.  However, at the same time that is exactly what Brees tried to do yesterday, he was attempting to force his team to make a decision on this before the season in the way that he saw this issue without considering the implications of how his other teammates would view this. 

 

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Adding to this as slightly different, how old is Brees vs Kepler - 41 vs 27. Brees in my opinion has been around the block and should have known better, this was fully intentional on his part (kepler unwittingly walked into it). However his reasoning is different than what all the other players are upset about. His opinion is political beliefs/concerns should be separated from saluting the flag which he sees as honoring A. the flag B. the military. Makes sense right. He made no claims about social injustice yet that is what every one and his brother took it as yesterday and he got crucified and had to apologize today. We are so easily angered, slow to reconcile, and generally unwilling to look at others belief systems. I am not sure I like the whole group think mentality and trying to force everyone's opinions into the same box. However, at the same time that is exactly what Brees tried to do yesterday, he was attempting to force his team to make a decision on this before the season in the way that he saw this issue without considering the implications of how his other teammates would view this.

What’s the cut off age when you’re supposed to know what’s appropriate and what’s not? I’m 30. Am I in the group with Drew Brees who should know better? Or am I in Max Kepler’s group who can post something stupid then backtrack saying I don’t know politics ✌️

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What’s the cut off age when you’re supposed to know what’s appropriate and what’s not? I’m 30. Am I in the group with Drew Brees who should know better? Or am I in Max Kepler’s group who can post something stupid then backtrack saying I don’t know politics ✌️

As much as its age its how long Brees has been in the public light, and actually dealt with this exact issue 4 years ago.  But as to age, I think by age 30 you should at least have a decent understanding of your surroundings.  I will say I was surprised to see Kepler was 27, I though he was 23. 

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His opinion doesn't matter because it's wrong. I didn't think this was hard to understand. Athletes have been saying for years exactly why they kneel during the national anthem. It's his fault for not listening.  

Again he said "he will never agree with anybody disrespecting the flag of the United States of America or our country"

 

So he doesn't get the right to think kneeling is disrespecting the flag or country?

 

But you get the right to tell him that is is wrong for thinking that . And we wonder why our (and by our I guess I mean your country because you are the one(s) that tell others what to believe and think) is completely divided.

 

I guess I thought I could have my opinion if kneeling was disrespecting the flag or not disrespecting flag, regardless of what others thought or said. I just hope Trump doesn't say people should start kneeling because peoples heads will explode. 

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Again he said "he will never agree with anybody disrespecting the flag of the United States of America or our country"

 

So he doesn't get the right to think kneeling is disrespecting the flag or country?

 

But you get the right to tell him that is is wrong for thinking that . And we wonder why our (and by our I guess I mean your country because you are the one(s) that tell others what to believe and think) is completely divided.

 

I guess I thought I could have my opinion if kneeling was disrespecting the flag or not disrespecting flag, regardless of what others thought or said. I just hope Trump doesn't say people should start kneeling because peoples heads will explode.

Lol yep! Only I alone get to decide what’s right and what’s wrong in this country.

 

Drew Brees thinks kneeling = disrespecting the flags and troops. His teammates, the people he spends a vast majority of his time with, used kneeling to bring awareness to police brutality on black people.

 

He took the symbol BLM used to peacefully protest and made it about himself and his beliefs. The timing of his comments are bad. His comments were insensitive and dismissive of what’s going on in the world.

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