Grief and pain in our community

[AZTwin]

For the record, I fully stand behind the sentiment of Black lives matter. However what is happening today is not valuing black lives at all. It is white anarachists hijacking it and trying to call you racist if you don’t support them destroying black peoples property or even ending black peoples (officers) lives. George Floyd’s brother even said he wouldn’t want this. This is NOT acting as if black lives matters and I will not support this type of behavior no matter how many times you call me racist for it

[Squirrel]

 

For the record, I fully stand behind the sentiment of Black lives matter. However what is happening today is not valuing black lives at all. It is white anarachists hijacking it and trying to call you racist if you don’t support them destroying black peoples property or even ending black peoples (officers) lives. George Floyd’s brother even said he wouldn’t want this. This is NOT acting as if black lives matters and I will not support this type of behavior no matter how many times you call me racist for it

No one called you racist.

[AZTwin]

Celebrities paying “fighters” bail money

 

https://www.dailywire.com/news/kaepernicks-paying-rioters-legal-fees-heres-a-list-of-celebs-politicians-paying-their-bail

[AZTwin]

Does this black life matter? Liberals believe blue lives are racist

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kmov.com/news/retired-st-louis-police-captain-david-dorn-murdered-by-a-looter-outside-pawn-shop/article_327ce1e4-a4a9-11ea-8b67-ff8a3d5d9ab4.amp.html

[Squirrel]

 

Celebrities paying “fighters” bail money

https://www.dailywire.com/news/kaepernicks-paying-rioters-legal-fees-heres-a-list-of-celebs-politicians-paying-their-bail

 

No, he is setting up a legal fund to help PROTESTERS arrested. There is a difference.

 

https://deadline.com/2020/05/colin-kaepernick-legal-defense-fund-other-celebs-fund-bail-1202947629/

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/05/29/colin-kaepernick-offers-to-pay-for-lawyers-for-protesters-arrested-in-minneapolis/#4d782db43690

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/colin-kaepernick-offers-to-pay-for-lawyers-for-people-protesting-in-minneapolis-11590771747

[Squirrel]

 

Does this black life matter? Liberals believe blue lives are racist

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.kmov.com/news/retired-st-louis-police-captain-david-dorn-murdered-by-a-looter-outside-pawn-shop/article_327ce1e4-a4a9-11ea-8b67-ff8a3d5d9ab4.amp.html

 

Prove to me that he was killed by a liberal or a BLM protester. He was killed by a looter. And I hope they catch the guy.

[AZTwin]

Prove to me that he was killed by a liberal or a BLM protester. He was killed by a looter. And I hope they catch the guy.

But blue lives don’t matter and is still racist? Why don’t you speak up for support for blue lives?

[Squirrel]

 

Wowwwww this post linking an article about a kid being almost murdered was removed...

Why the censorship?

https://ktrh.iheart.com/featured/michael-berry/content/2020-06-02-virginia-police-chief-rioters-blocked-firefighters-from-responding-to-fire/

 

Because you are no longer discussing but engaging in trolling. Be genuine, not a troll. Please.

[AZTwin]

Because you are no longer discussing but engaging in trolling. Be genuine, not a troll. Please.

I’m trolling by posting articles? Com’n. You have to realize what is happening

[Richie the Rally Goat]

But blue lives don’t matter and is still racist? Why don’t you speak up for support for blue lives?

police officers are people and their role in our society is critical, and their humanity is valued. As has been discussed several times in this thread, the issue with the phrase “Blue Lives Matter” is that it is co-opted from Black Lives Matter in order to undermine their objective of highlighting police/institutional injustice against black people.

 

To say Black Lives Matter is not saying other lives don’t. To say Blue Lives Matter is to say the Black Lives Matter movement doesn’t have value.

[ewen21]

 

police officers are people and their role in our society is critical, and their humanity is valued. As has been discussed several times in this thread, the issue with the phrase “Blue Lives Matter” is that it is co-opted from Black Lives Matter in order to undermine their objective of highlighting police/institutional injustice against black people.

To say Black Lives Matter is not saying other lives don’t. To say Blue Lives Matter is to say the Black Lives Matter movement doesn’t have value.

Unbelievable.  Are you familiar with the story about Brett Weinstein and Evergreen College?  I suggest everyone and anyone here watch that story because what happened there is a foreshadowing of what is happening now.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

 

Unbelievable.  Are you familiar with the story about Brett Weinstein and Evergreen College?  I suggest everyone and anyone here watch that story because what happened there is a foreshadowing of what is happening now.

 

What parallels are you drawing with Bret Weinstein?

 

 

[ashbury]

Unbelievable.  Are you familiar with the story about Brett Weinstein and Evergreen College?  I suggest everyone and anyone here watch that story because what happened there is a foreshadowing of what is happening now.

An object lesson in the Tyranny Of The Majority, flipped on its head for one day a year at a semi-obscure college you wouldn't have heard of except for this. Yes, I'm sure it was annoying to those affected, until they stopped to think why. Weinstein was obstinate, resigned eventually, and the college settled out of court to be rid of him. That's my summary from doing as you suggested and looking into the story.

 

You wouldn't enjoy Reed College at ALL.

 

[ewen21]

I am offended by the N-word and no doubt so is everyone here.  African Americans are offended by the N-word, too.  Yet there are countless hip hop songs that are peppered with the word.  What about that?  Why is that word so important in that culture?  Moreover, why is that culture so important in defining African American males.  I am also confused as to why they say "Black Lives Matter" while the murder rate in their community is far beyond that of any other community.  Black lives seem to only matter when a white person ends it.  Since African Americans males murder people at a much higher rate than any other group of people it stands to reason they will tangle with law enforcement.  Too many young African Americans are enamored with the gangster code.  That is the power structure in many communities in a lot of cases.  Can we have a conversation about breaking that cycle someday soon?  (I will attempt to post my plan to offset that behavior later).  Don't they have responsibility to change themselves as well?  This is why I don't like it when people start playing games with language. It becomes a distraction from the real issue:

 

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2018/crime-in-the-u.s.-2018/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-6.xls

When the race of the offender was known, 54.9 percent were Black or African American, 42.4 percent were White, and 2.7 percent were of other races. The race was unknown for 4,821 offenders.  African Americans make up 13% of the population and are responsible for 55% of the homicides.  And that is probably a generous figure when considering the unsolved crimes, which is substantial.  The no snitch code is real in African American inner city life.  If I learned anything working in a residential treatment facility in the 90s for 2 years with predominantly African American and Hispanic teens shipped "upstate" from the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens it was that a whole lot of them love mafia movies and the "gangster code".  Being of Italian heritage that pains me.  If you asked these teens what their favorite movie was it would be Scarface, Goodfellas, Dead Presidents, Casino, etc.....I would like to have a serious conversation about facts and factors contributing to the issue that has stopped America in its track.  This side of the issue exists and yet it is consistently brushed aside.  I derive no pleasure from pointing this out and actually feel sick after I hit POST when I post a message like this, but I don't see profit in sweeping things under the rug.  If we are going to be at all honest about what happens with regard to violence people actually must familiarize themselves with the data.

 

Does anyone here know how many unarmed black men were killed by police last year?  I can't find the data anywhere.  Why is that?  I heard the number was 9 and that was from Bernard Kerik.  In comparison 19 unarmed whites were killed by police (according to Kerik).  Does anyone know the name of any unarmed white person killed by police?  Why isn't this information discussed and prominent in the ongoing discussion?  It should have been when Kaepernick was kneeling, but he never wanted to take it any further than his protest.  I fear that this is all we will get.  A massive protest with ominous messages to follow and no actual dialogue about the data.  

 

It makes me wonder if they want to attempt to curb violence.  The protesters have to understand that even if they are assembling peacefully when they do it in such large numbers it opens the door for looting, arson and other things. They had 8 days of national protest. If they are interested in beginning the healing process they need to take a day or two to organize and prepare for dialogue.  

 

I am all for racial equality, but on the subject of violent crime and violent acts we need to have a real discussion about it.  There hasn't been.

 

Thanks for letting me speak about this.  

 

[ewen21]

 

An object lesson in the Tyranny Of The Majority, flipped on its head for one day a year at a semi-obscure college you wouldn't have heard of except for this. Yes, I'm sure it was annoying to those affected, until they stopped to think why. Weinstein was obstinate, resigned eventually, and the college settled out of court to be rid of him. That's my summary from doing as you suggested and looking into the story.

 

You wouldn't enjoy Reed College at ALL.
 

Weinstein was forced out of his position because he opposed to a tradition at the college called "A Day  of Absence".  He wrote:

"There is a huge difference between a group or coalition deciding to voluntarily absent themselves from a shared space in order to highlight their vital and underappreciated roles....and a group encouraging another group to go away. The first is a forceful call to consciousness, which is, of course, crippling to the logic of oppression. The second is a show of force, and an act of oppression in and of itself."

 

Then a mob of students interrupted one of his lectures and demanded he leave.  Yet somehow, you interpret that as being "obstinate"

 

Amazing

[ewen21]

 

What parallels are you drawing with Bret Weinstein?

I answered John.  That would be my response to you as well

[ashbury]

Weinstein was forced out of his position because he opposed to a tradition at the college called "A Day  of Absence".  He wrote:

"There is a huge difference between a group or coalition deciding to voluntarily absent themselves from a shared space in order to highlight their vital and underappreciated roles....and a group encouraging another group to go away. The first is a forceful call to consciousness, which is, of course, crippling to the logic of oppression. The second is a show of force, and an act of oppression in and of itself."

 

Then a mob of students interrupted one of his lectures and demanded he leave.  Yet somehow, you interpret that as being "obstinate"

 

Amazing

I saw all that. He managed to completely twist and misinterpret what was going on. He made his own bed.

 

[ewen21]

 

I saw all that. He managed to completely twist and misinterpret what was going on. He made his own bed.
 

I watched the actual footage and read the documents.  You have and that is how you interpret it?

Do you support students mandating a "Day of Absence" for one race?  If that is the case you must acknowledge the precedent it sets. The issue centered on that

 

 

[Craig Arko]

It was probably more like three weeks ago now. Trying to keep time has become pretty difficult these last few months. Nevertheless...

 

[ewen21]

I don’t think polarization is necessary. I don’t think pushing one side of an argument is a conversation. we ought to promote discussion and want civil conversations to prevail in society. This was not the case on the Evergreen campus.  I don't think anyone with knowledge of that situation could deny that.

Students patrolled the campus with baseball bats. The president of the University was sympathetic to the needs and request of the students  demanding Weinstein and all whites leave the campus.  When he allowed them free reign to his offices he was told to speak without the use of his hands, because it was a so called “micro-aggression.”

[ashbury]

I watched the actual footage and read the documents.  You have and that is how you interpret it?

Do you support students mandating a "Day of Absence" for one race?  If that is the case you must acknowledge the precedent it sets. The issue centered on that

If it was on my campus, I'd probably go along with it. (Maybe I wouldn't have, back in the day. I was pretty conservative in college.) All kinds of random stuff happens at college. The problem at Evergreen began when people escalated against something harmless.

 

You've completely sidestepped my point about the tyranny of the majority. Minority groups experience little things like that one every day - "go with the flow, it'll be easier". Flip that on its head for one day, at a college campus where the stakes are pretty low, and it's easy for me to feel like lumping together the recalcitrant ones into an unflattering profile.

 

[ewen21]

 

It was probably more like three weeks ago now. Trying to keep time has become pretty difficult these last few months. Nevertheless...

 

Oh_this_thing.jpg

Do you have words of your own?  Everything you post seems to be some cryptic message we all have to interpret.  I would appreciate it if you actually said something that was an original thought.  You get a lot of likes so this should be a safe enough place for you to proceed speaking on your own terms.

 

Sorry man.  I get tired of this stuff.

[ewen21]

 

If it was on my campus, I'd probably go along with it. (Maybe I wouldn't have, back in the day. I was pretty conservative in college.) All kinds of random stuff happens at college. The problem at Evergreen began when people escalated against something harmless.

 

You've completely sidestepped my point about the tyranny of the majority. Minority groups experience little things like that one every day - "go with the flow, it'll be easier". Flip that on its head for one day, at a college campus where the stakes are pretty low, and it's easy for me to feel like lumping together the recalcitrant ones into an unflattering profile.
 

HOw was that situation random?  It was preplanned and calculated.

 

I did not sidestep the point on "tyranny of the majority"

That is exactly what Weinstein was objecting to.  

 

And no, I would not have gone with the flow.  This kind of thing isn't effective in creating change or a real dialogue.  We won't agree on Evergreen in million years, so will you allow me to bail on the discussion?  I made my point and don't really require any support from anyone here.  I only wanted to speak to here in hopes people would see merit in what I said.  If you don't then my feelings are not hurt.

[ashbury]

HOw was that situation random?  It was preplanned and calculated.

 

I did not sidestep the point on "tyranny of the majority"

That is exactly what Weinstein was objecting to. 

Random in the sense of, today it's one thing, tomorrow it's another.

 

And if Weinstein understood the point he went at showing it in exactly a bass-ackwards way.

 

[ewen21]

Here is another thought.  Why can't the protesters stand down for now so as to allow law enforcement to squash the violent actors and find caches of explosives and incendiaries they are leaving everywhere?  It is rather clear the bad actors are using the crowds of "peaceful protestors" to their advantage.  Watching ABC News yesterday evening they showed a large peaceful protest clogging Vine Street in LA.  While they were praising the protesters a gang of looters were smashing windows and looting stores blocks away.  These maneuvers have become typical of the bad actors and the protesters would do well to understand this.

 

They don't seem to be capable of acknowledging this right now and I wish they would. It is going on day nine.  When do we move on to phase two and start the clean up?  

[nicksaviking]

 

 

 When do we move on to phase two and start the clean up?  

 

Has there been a change? The President just tear gassed peaceful protesters for a propaganda photo op. They want actual change, they don't want people to just say they want change.

[ewen21]

 

Has there been a change? The President just tear gassed peaceful protesters for a propaganda photo op. They want actual change, they don't want people to just say they want change.

I am not aware of the circumstances surround this particular event.  I know he wanted to wanted to visit St. John's Episcopal Church and it was ill-advised, but rioters did burn the church and destroy monuments there.  Is that an acceptable practice in your estimation?

[nicksaviking]

 

I am not aware of the circumstances surround this particular event.  I know he wanted to wanted to visit St. John's Episcopal Church and it was ill-advised, but rioters did burn the church and destroy monuments there.  Is that an acceptable practice in your estimation?

 

Well then why don't you find out more about the particulars of the circumstance before trying to twist the conversation. Seems odd that that is the one thing you are claiming not to know anything about.

 

You asked when this will stop. I suggested after the protesters get the changes they want.

[AZTwin]

Well then why don't you find out more about the particulars of the circumstance before trying to twist the conversation. Seems odd that that is the one thing you are claiming not to know anything about.

 

You asked when this will stop. I suggested after the protesters get the changes they want.

Protestors can’t victimize countless lives and then cry victim when they are responded to appropriately. Can’t have it both ways. Are you suggesting burning property and killing black officers, and endangering children is the appropriate action to get what they want?

[nicksaviking]

 

Protestors can’t victimize countless lives and then cry victim when they are responded to appropriately. Can’t have it both ways. Are you suggesting burning property and killing black officers, and endangering children is the appropriate action to get what they want?

 

The protesters aren't burning buildings, those are the looters.

 

When are you willing to give the protesters what they want?