Grief and pain in our community

[Squirrel]

There is a lot going on and a lot behind some of the worst of what's been happening in Minneapolis. There's a difference between protesters and rioters.

[glunn]

It appears that things are getting violent in some big cities. The mayor of Los Angeles has declared a curfew as of 8:00 p.m. and the City of Beverly Hills is robo calling all residents advising them to stay home.

 

I still cannot understand why the other 3 officers in the Floyd case have not been arrested and charged. I think that might have reduced some of the anger.

 

Now I am very worried about police lines being broken and metal bullets replacing rubber bullets. Please stay safe everyone.

[Craig Arko]

 

There is a lot going on and a lot behind some of the worst of what's been happening in Minneapolis. There's a difference between protesters and rioters.

Indeed. And those unwilling to make the distinction remain part of the problem.

[ashbury]

Indeed. And those unwilling to make the distinction remain part of the problem.

 

[Squirrel]

If anyone knows any community funds, and wants to share them here, for those of us who are out of town and can’t lend an actual hand, I know I’d appreciate it. I found this article from doing a quick web search that lists many:

 

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/30/how-to-give-back-to-your-besieged-community/

 

There’s also this:

https://www.welovelakestreet.com/

 

And this one has info, too:

https://m.facebook.com/supportthecities/

[ewen21]

 

What do you see as the problem? What do you mean by justice? It would help if we could understand each other better.

I will add that it’s something of a miracle that only a couple people have lost their lives across the country the past couple nights. Keep that in mind. This tells me that this fight isn’t about hating each other. It’s about uprooting an unjust system. (That’s my short version of it, anyway.

Have you been watching the news?  We are in the middle of a pandemic and yet there are mobs of people burning stores.  Haven't small business owners suffered enough?

 

And YES.  I see burning the third precinct as a terrible thing.  I also keep seeing ACAB.  That stands for ALL COPS ARE BAD.  Sorry, man.  That is insanity.  What was that line in the song "Revolution" by the Beatles?

"When you go talking about destruction don't you know that you can count me out"

That's where I am coming from.

 

Do you actually have trouble with that?

[ewen21]

 

There's reason to think false-flag operatives are involved. You've seen the video of the white guy with the hammer knocking out store windows, right? Umbrella Guy didn't react favorably when some peaceful protesters followed him. The police already felt it a good idea to disavow a connection to him.

 

An affordable-housing construction project burning down likewise is better explained by outside malice than by idiocy.

 

Pain? Grief? Anger? A sense of injustice?

Just, "rioters". This paints a picture of apathy that I don't imagine you really intended.

Oh the white supremacist theory.  Yeah.

 

I find it hard to believe that white supremacists are there in numbers, running amok zig zagging between BLM, the NAACP, and all sorts of activists.  If they are part of the picture then they can go to hell, too.

 

Sorry, I am not apathetic.  I think all this looting and destruction is ignorant.  We are buried economically by COVID-19 as it is. 

[Squirrel]

Have you been watching the news? We are in the middle of a pandemic and yet there are mobs of people burning stores. Haven't small business owners suffered enough?

 

And YES. I see burning the third precinct as a terrible thing. I also keep seeing ACAB. That stands for ALL COPS ARE BAD. Sorry, man. That is insanity. What was that line in the song "Revolution" by the Beatles?

"When you go talking about destruction don't you know that you can count me out"

That's where I am coming from.

 

Do you actually have trouble with that?

I do have trouble with it, especially since much of this is coming from people who live outside the state. Their motivation of this causes me great concern, and who is funding them and encouraging them to incite this violence. Why would people who are most oppressed be burning their own shops and businesses? The answer is ... they aren’t.

[stringer bell]

I don't think it is cut and dried that all of the violence is coming from anarchists and "the radical left". International mischief makers (Russia, China) would like to see nothing more than having our country be more divided. The alt right has been talking about a race war for years. What better way to start such a war than inflame the tensions of a wrongful death to an African-American?

 

The only evidence I've personally seen is "Umbrella Man", apparently a white guy dressed in black with a gas mask, hammer and umbrella, who walked along Lake Street and broke windows with his hammer. 

[Squirrel]

 

I don't think it is cut and dried that all of the violence is coming from anarchists and "the radical left". International mischief makers (Russia, China) would like to see nothing more than having our country be more divided. The alt right has been talking about a race war for years. What better way to start such a war than inflame the tensions of a wrongful death to an African-American?

 

The only evidence I've personally seen is "Umbrella Man", apparently a white guy dressed in black with a gas mask, hammer and umbrella, who walked along Lake Street and broke windows with his hammer. 

This is NOT from radical leftist groups. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Have you been watching the news?  We are in the middle of a pandemic and yet there are mobs of people burning stores.  Haven't small business owners suffered enough?

 

And YES.  I see burning the third precinct as a terrible thing.  I also keep seeing ACAB.  That stands for ALL COPS ARE BAD.  Sorry, man.  That is insanity.  What was that line in the song "Revolution" by the Beatles?

"When you go talking about destruction don't you know that you can count me out"

That's where I am coming from.

 

Do you actually have trouble with that?

I don’t have trouble with you being pacifist, if that’s what you are referring to.

 

We got to this moment because bad cops weren’t being held accountable for bad acts against peaceful people.

[glunn]

People have been openly looting in Los Angeles for the past few hours, and they are showing it on television. The number of looters seems to be hundreds if not thousands, and I am seeing a lot of people carrying as much clothing as they can carry.

 

It makes me sad to see so many people using this tragedy as an opportunity to steal. I don't know if any foreign or right wing actors are influencing this, but there are a lot of looters and they appear to like clothing. And in one instance the police are about 200 yards away and watching.

 

Curfew just started and it's getting dark. It could be a bad night. They just announced that the curfew applies to news media. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

https://twitter.com/LaurenKARE11/status/1266736932568076288

https://twitter.com/toreyvanoot/status/1266879267369091073?s=20

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

https://twitter.com/toreyvanoot/status/1266879267369091073?s=20

https://twitter.com/pareene/status/1266901098842984450

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I do have trouble with it, especially since much of this is coming from people who live outside the state. Their motivation of this causes me great concern, and who is funding them and encouraging them to incite this violence. Why would people who are most oppressed be burning their own shops and businesses? The answer is ... they aren’t.

 

External organization for these types of events is sadly not that abnormal as plenty will gain from the situation. Someone has an agenda, and it's doubtful that the who will ever come to light. It rarely does. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

What happened to George Floyd should never happen to anybody, we all need to pray for him and his family and friends. But the fact of the matter is that ALL LIVES MATTER. Anything other than ALL LIVES MATTER just falls short of what we ALL should strive for. Here's another thought: Do you think the local people of this Minneapolis community are the ones rioting, burning and looting? Some probably are, but the vast majority of those who are doing this are people from out of state. They are ANTIFA professional agitators who zoom from hot spot to hot spot trying to foment unrest. LOCAL people don't burn their Target store to the ground. Those LOCAL people don't burn black owned businesses to the ground. Those LOCAL people know that destroying their neighborhood is NOT going to solve the problem at hand.

The original post from the Kepler thread had some points to discuss.

 

To say Black Lives Matter is to acknowledge that black people are racially profiled and discriminated against. It’s not to minimize the value of other people lives. Of course all lives matter, that’s not the point.

 

We need to affirm the rights of our neighbors, and acknowledge the inequality and injustice some of our community members face.

 

Not everyone can be out there protesting, but we can say that the injustice is wrong, it needs to change.

[akmanak]

Driving around Lake st and seeing the total destruction was pretty crazy. It was like out of a movie. Our leaders failed us and I am hoping they understand that the public will not take their incompetence any longer.

 

Last night should of happened two days ago.

[ewen21]

 

I do have trouble with it, especially since much of this is coming from people who live outside the state. Their motivation of this causes me great concern, and who is funding them and encouraging them to incite this violence. Why would people who are most oppressed be burning their own shops and businesses? The answer is ... they aren’t.

I guess Jacob Frey was wrong to take responsibility for the comments he made about most of the people from being out of state:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/minnesota-officials-say-most-people-who-acted-violently-at-protests-are-not-state-residents/

That was debunked already and both Walz and Frey walked back the comments.

 

The part about "why would people who are the most oppressed be burning their own businesses" isn't for anyone to determine.  Look at the riots in Detroit and Newark.  They burned down their own neighborhoods and the cities never recovered.  It was not rational then and it isn't rational now, so asking why they would do this assumes people were being rational.  They were not.  People trash their neighborhoods sometimes.  When I was a teen, my friends and I vandalized things a couple times.  Take a drive around Chicago and you will see neighborhood destroyed by young men living in them.  YOu can ask WHY would they do it, but you are coming from a place that is rational.  They are not.  More to the point, these mobs demonstrated irrational behavior and that was why the National Guard had to be called.

 

This riot and the ones in other cities around the country showed me that white people surely love to riot and really could not care less about destroying property in their own neighborhoods.  These neighborhoods in Minneapolis where not all that poor and disenfranchised.  The people destroying stuff were black and white.  The people living in many of those neighborhoods were a mix.  I don't know without out a question where they came from but you can't speak in absolutes saying "much of this came from people out of state"

The arrest reports indicate otherwise

 

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/investigations/kare-11-investigates-records-show-arrests-mostly-minnesotans-as-george-floyd-protests-riots-continue-minneapolis-st-paul/89-73f3e0e8-0664-41d5-8d3e-4467d04da7cb

 

This idea about who is responsible for the looting, arson and mayhem is meaningless to me.  It seems to me that this site has a large number of posters pushing the idea that "white nationalists" did a majority of the damage.  I find that to be incredibly unlikely, but find it odd because I know people want to believe that so much for some reason.  How is it that a large group of "white nationalists" came in and did what they did when BLM, the NAACP and all sorts of activists staunchly against them couldn't even recognize or identify them? Would there not be confrontations between the disparate groups?  Maybe a few renegades got in there and did damage, but where is the evidence of widespread damage from "white nationalist"?  Some white guy dressing in black carrying an umbrella? I am not saying it is impossible that some "white nationalists" flew under the radar, but let's get real here.  Yeah, no.

 

I am not interested in assigning blame at this point, but it seems to me a lot of people would like to believe "white nationalists" were responsible for this.  It is far more likely that anti-law enforcement whites and anarchists were the ones trashing police cars and burning them--and make no mistake there were a lot of them.  This behavior more lines up with that ideology if we are going to attempt to understand the culprits who perpetrated the vandalism and chaos for five days.  White nationalists were the ones in Lansing holding the gun in front of the capital building demanding Whitmer reopen Michigan.  That makes a whole lot more sense.  The anti-police hysteria lines up with something entirely different, but again...........I am completely disinterested in pursuing that diversion,.

[ewen21]

 

 

Curfew just started and it's getting dark. It could be a bad night. They just announced that the curfew applies to news media. 

I think it is important that news media be counted as people as well. This was way too important and no interference from anywhere had to be tolerated

[ewen21]

 

I don’t have trouble with you being pacifist, if that’s what you are referring to.

We got to this moment because bad cops weren’t being held accountable for bad acts against peaceful people.

Pacifist?  Hardly.

 

I was for the protests and actually was proud to see a large number of white people being involved.  That all changed when things started burning.  I don't support irrational behavior and destruction.  I am a grown up.  Maybe when I was 21 I would have been down for some mayhem just to do it and there were tons of people like that out there from all races.

 

Being more rational in my old age, I realize small businesses have suffered enough during COVID-19.  How is looting going to help.  I really don't care what community it is or where the people came from.  If they were Minnesotan, white, black, radical, reactionary, is virtually meaning when we consider the damage done. The people who own those places and work there don't deserve that.  Furthermore, I have been quarantined since March 16th and have no desire to engage in activities in big crowds. We have been hearing about social distancing for months and are still expected to adhere to it.  These people were not.

 

It is ignorant on several levels, but you seem to view it as justice. I will never agree with that. Sorry!

[Squirrel]

 

Pacifist?  Hardly.

 

I was for the protests and actually was proud to see a large number of white people being involved.  That all changed when things started burning.  I don't support irrational behavior and destruction.  I am a grown up.  Maybe when I was 21 I would have been down for some mayhem just to do it and there were tons of people like that out there from all races.

 

Being more rational in my old age, I realize small businesses have suffered enough during COVID-19.  How is looting going to help.  I really don't care what community it is or where the people came from.  If they were Minnesotan, white, black, radical, reactionary, is virtually meaning when we consider the damage done. The people who own those places and work there don't deserve that.  Furthermore, I have been quarantined since March 16th and have no desire to engage in activities in big crowds. We have been hearing about social distancing for months and are still expected to adhere to it.  These people were not.

 

It is ignorant on several levels, but you seem to view it as justice. I will never agree with that. Sorry!

I don't see it as justice. And as I've said many times, I don't condone it, either. But I understand being marginalized, I understand how that feels, the anger and frustration when things just don't change. But I also don't know the more extremes of that marginalization and don't know a lifetime of it. To be so unheard. And when you are among the oppressed, you are powerless to change it. I don't condone it and I am sad and heartbroken over all of it, I truly am, but there is a part of me that really understands it, too. I'm not saying it's justified, I'm saying I understand it. While I'd like to live in a world where change happened peacefully ... when has it ever? It's just heartbreaking to me that it still comes to this.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

This is what we should be seeing by our leaders:

https://mobile.twitter.com/RexChapman/status/1267107339833925634?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1267131206681886722&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnn.com%2F2020%2F05%2F31%2Fus%2Fflint-michigan-protest-police-trnd%2Findex.html

[ewen21]

 

I don't see it as justice. And as I've said many times, I don't condone it, either. But I understand being marginalized, I understand how that feels, the anger and frustration when things just don't change. But I also don't know the more extremes of that marginalization and don't know a lifetime of it. To be so unheard. And when you are among the oppressed, you are powerless to change it. I don't condone it and I am sad and heartbroken over all of it, I truly am, but there is a part of me that really understands it, too. I'm not saying it's justified, I'm saying I understand it. While I'd like to live in a world where change happened peacefully ... when has it ever? It's just heartbreaking to me that it still comes to this.

Solutions need to be discussed while engaging in some hard talk on both sides.  We die without a solution.

 

I am sorry if I made you feel like you condoned the actions of the looters.  Some have,.

[Craig Arko]

This is what humanity looks like.

 

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Pacifist?  Hardly.

 

I was for the protests and actually was proud to see a large number of white people being involved.  That all changed when things started burning.  I don't support irrational behavior and destruction.  I am a grown up.  Maybe when I was 21 I would have been down for some mayhem just to do it and there were tons of people like that out there from all races.

 

Being more rational in my old age, I realize small businesses have suffered enough during COVID-19.  How is looting going to help.  I really don't care what community it is or where the people came from.  If they were Minnesotan, white, black, radical, reactionary, is virtually meaning when we consider the damage done. The people who own those places and work there don't deserve that.  Furthermore, I have been quarantined since March 16th and have no desire to engage in activities in big crowds. We have been hearing about social distancing for months and are still expected to adhere to it.  These people were not.

 

It is ignorant on several levels, but you seem to view it as justice. I will never agree with that. Sorry!

Plenty of black leaders have addressed the protest/riot/looting issue that concerns you, so there’s nothing much for me to add to that. I agree with you that those police officers who killed George Floyd must be brought to justice. But I will say again that we are in this spot because, for too long, bad police have not been held accountable for bad acts against peaceful citizens.

[biggentleben]

So many situations where officers talked or walked with those who were protesting and their cities saw none of the issues in other towns and cities.

 

Meanwhile, one member of the media covering the events lost her eye, another member of the media very feasibly could pass away, and many have significant issues due to tear gas inhalation.

 

Media's role in a melee like this is to hold truth to both sides of the issue, and anyone wanting to actually do so has seen coverage that held anyone and everyone accountable. However, police using brutal, physical force and then firing unprovoked in multiple locales yesterday being captured by media turned into multiple media outlets TARGETED by police. One chilling video shows a film crew videoing police actions until one person off-screen hollers "they're sighting in on US!" Then the cameraman is taken down, shot in the head.

 

Multiple officers have come out to say that this is not protocol for training with rubber bullet usage. Shooting should always be done for center-mass, not for the head, and especially not for face, but multiple media members were hit around their face by officers who were lining up those shots. It's caught on camera, and it's going to be yet another monster brick in the wall between those who despise officers and the police ever being able to have moments like were seen in Camden and Flint.

[biggentleben]

 

 

Plenty of black leaders have addressed the protest/riot/looting issue that concerns you, so there’s nothing much for me to add to that. I agree with you that those police officers who killed George Floyd must be brought to justice. But I will say again that we are in this spot because, for too long, bad police have not been held accountable for bad acts against peaceful citizens.

...and that's for bad behavior against citizens of all colors, but it especially seems to lose accountability when the victim is someone of color. Amen.

[ewen21]

 

Plenty of black leaders have addressed the protest/riot/looting issue that concerns you, so there’s nothing much for me to add to that. I agree with you that those police officers who killed George Floyd must be brought to justice. But I will say again that we are in this spot because, for too long, bad police have not been held accountable for bad acts against peaceful citizens.

I don't agree with all of this because we are now still going strong after almost a week.  The extent of the damage is too great now to level all the blame on police officers.  Innocent people are having their lives turned upside down by the actions of violent protesters.  This does nothing for George Floyd and it will only weaken communities that are already in bad shape due to the pandemic.  This is not an appropriate response.

 

I feel I need to ask you and others a very important question....

Is there a point where the violent protesters looting, burning, throwing rocks and generally overturning cities all over America need to get checked?  It seems to me you are content to sit back and say...."well, that's what you get because the cops....."

Let's say this goes on for another week.  Would you begin to consider there is blame on both sides at that point?  I sincerely doubt you will ever get there so please tell me I am wrong.

[ewen21]

 

 

Media's role in a melee like this is to hold truth to both sides of the issue, and anyone wanting to actually do so has seen coverage that held anyone and everyone accountable. However, police using brutal, physical force and then firing unprovoked in multiple locales yesterday being captured by media turned into multiple media outlets TARGETED by police. 

I am sorry, but that is inevitable when you have a mob of people destroying property, burning cars, blocking streets, looting, etc....if you extend the timeline out long enough bad things are going to need to start happening because the mob has become completely irrational.

 

If anything the police have shown an unbelievable amount of restraint.  

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

I don't agree with all of this because we are now still going strong after almost a week.  The extent of the damage is too great now to level all the blame on police officers.  Innocent people are having their lives turned upside down by the actions of violent protesters.  This does nothing for George Floyd and it will only weaken communities that are already in bad shape due to the pandemic.  This is not an appropriate response.

 

I feel I need to ask you and others a very important question....

Is there a point where the violent protesters looting, burning, throwing rocks and generally overturning cities all over America need to get checked?  It seems to me you are content to sit back and say...."well, that's what you get because the cops....."

Let's say this goes on for another week.  Would you begin to consider there is blame on both sides at that point?  I sincerely doubt you will ever get there so please tell me I am wrong.

 

I'm answering this for me and not Brock to be clear, but I don't think two wrongs make a right, and I suspect pretty much everyone here would agree with that on some level. But people should be angry about this. It was flat out murder, and there's no way to get around that as men who were charged to serve and protect did just the opposite. People can be angry about the looting and violence too. Both are wrong. Rodney King and George Floyd were travesties... So was Reginald Denny. I think being upset about both is human. Either one to the exclusion of the other is dangerous. 

 

Personally, I'd like to see more of what happened in Flint where the cops walked along side the protesters. It really shouldn't be an us vs. them thing. That was one of the tweets in Sconnie's link that he posted. There's an opportunity for the good ones to stand up here. Personally, I hope and pray that we see a lot more of that.