MLB cut minor league teams

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

1.  Only slaves are paid a living wage.   An employer pays a market wage.  If we really required an employer to pay a "living wage", then this would mean the employer would be responsible for making decisions about their employees lives.  How many children you have?  When you have children.  When you marry.  BS.  This is just a made up term.  An employer pays a market.  I get that this will never sink in.  If the wage an employer wants to pay is not enough for the market, the employer will not be able to acquire enough labor input.  If Major League Baseball paid too little, they would not be able to field minor league teams.  This is not the case although the overall issue of baseball talent is something MLB has to address to get more talent away from other sports.

 

2.  The ability to enter and reenter the draft is HUGE for major league baseball prospects.  This gives them major leverage to negotiate larger signing bonuses.  If I have a LSU baseball scholarship offer and you draft me, I can use that fact to get a higher offer from you.  If you don't meet that $2 million that Enlow got,  then he just goes to college and hopes that in the next draft he is eligible for he gets picked at a higher slot.

 

3.  Calling it a "conspiracy" is meaningless. The collective bargaining process is used in many industries, not just professional sports.  Entry level employees are covered by the CBA negotiated.  AS I stated, the CBA, like almost all of them, is heavily weighted in favor of the "middle class" of the union. As are all kinds of jobs that are not unionized.  Like I mentioned, the mail room at General Mills has a pay grade and you are limited to those pay rate.

 

4.  ALl of your rhetoric is meaningless.  THEY HAVE CHOICES.  Just because "YOU WANT" doesn't mean that is a viable choice.  If you are a senior college baseball player drafted in the 32nd round, you have choices.  You can sign with the team that drafted you and pursue major league baseball.  Ifyou havent finished your degree you can finish it.  If you have finished your degree you can go join the work force.  ATHLETES ARE NOT SPECIAL.

1. This is a red herring. You can quibble about a living wage, but you and I both know what the players are being paid is not one. It's also, I might add, less than minimum wage. You also keep going back to "market wage" which is a complete fallacy. There is no market wage b/c the owners have gotten together and set the market wage. That is the definition of anti-trust. If there was a market wage set, the players would definitely be getting paid more... that includes the guys with no future in baseball because the owners would not be able to field full teams without them.

 

2. The ability to enter/renter is also loaded with risk. Players also potentially lose money in that situation. Regardless, your example really only fits high school players and to a lesser extent college juniors. To entice them away, they have to have enough compensation to do it. That makes sense. College players aren't so lucky, and that happens to be the demographic that is most negatively impacted by this. It also has nothing to do with the anti-trust points that you keep dancing around. None of this changes the fact that the "market" isn't free because the people who need the services have conspired together to set wage and employment location. Legally, that can only be done when there's representation, but the way baseball works the MLBPA has not represented them.

 

3. I'm not calling it a conspiracy. This has happened. The 30 employers have set minor leaguers wages and the MLBPA has gone along with it. In this case, entry level employees have not been protected. They don't even get a vote. The middle class is at best minor leaguers on the 40 man and guys in AAA if I were to carry out your analogy. 

 

4. Having "choices" as you like to put it does not negate the anti-trust issues. Walmart and Target could get together to set wages/work locations of their employees. Said employees would have choices using your logic. Their actions would still be illegal no matter how you slice it. This is another red herring and completely ignores the point being addressed. 

[Twodogs]

I think if you asked the players they'd just want to be paid more. It's weird to me that some player who made 10 mil per year in the show will get 100k in retirement where some dude who sacrificed 6 or 7 years in the minors made probably about 20 - 30 grand total over that time frame and gets nothing. All I'm saying is fine if you keep the salaries way down like they do, then maybe put together something where they can get 500 bucks a month or something when they turn 65 as a retirement package? These guys are sacrificing a lot to try and make it. Especially the guys who come from poorer backgrounds. I mean kids who come from well off families can afford to spend a little more time in the minors to try and make it as they have backing from home. (I guess that is one way to keep the game more of a rich mans game?) But a poorer kid cannot, they have to start earning a little earlier so as to be able to put enough away for retirement. I mean a kid comes out of college at 22 spends 6 years trying to make it, maybe comes close, gets hurt, and now is 28 and has nothing to show for the last 6 years and now must start a different career and is way behind. So when that guy gets to retirement that little 400 or 500 bucks a month would be a little boost for putting in that extra time? Just a thought

[SkyBlueWaters]

 

1.   The economic impact of minor league baseball is minimal.  I think someone stated that the attendance for an Elizabethton game was 800.  I would find that exaggerated from direct observation of Ft Myers Miracle games that probably really average about 800, and that is a bigger city/area and higher level minor league.

 

 

Not that it's any great shakes, but I found Appy League attendance stats here:

 

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=l_att&lid=120&sid=l120

 

Elizabethton's average is 811. Nearby Johnson City is a good bit larger; probably fans from surrounding communities also show up occasionally. (Johnson City's Cards draw much more.) I'm guessing the whole league will be lost?

 

I think many of us know what it's like to lose a local institution.

[SkyBlueWaters]

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but don’t teams typically house minor league players in a dorm type setting? 

 

As I sat in the stands in Elizabethton, I listened to the people around me talk of who was hosting which players. Many of the (obviously pretty young) players were from the Dominican Republic. Miguel Sano had played for the E-Twins a couple years earlier, and I spoke to one fan about his impressions of Sano.

 

Someone affiliated with the team was circulating through the crowd, speaking to the generally older people who were hosting players, making sure everything was going well. 

 

I think it matters to the athletes to have at least a few teammates they can relate to.

 

I've read of Tony Oliva's struggles, coming from a poor, rural area of Cuba, showing up in the American south of the early 60s, trying to get by. My sense was the people of E-town reach out to the kids to make the adjustment as easy as they can.

 

Everybody wants to say they knew the next Oliva, Carew or Puckett back when, after all.

[ashbury]

As I sat in the stands in Elizabethton, I listened to the people around me talk of who was hosting which players. Many of the (obviously pretty young) players were from the Dominican Republic. Miguel Sano had played for the E-Twins a couple years earlier, and I spoke to one fan about his impressions of Sano.

We had a poster named Madre Dos who hosted Rosario, Vargas, and Sano, among others, at E'town. I believe we heard she passed away awhile back. I miss her very much.

 

[mlhouse]

 

Not that it's any great shakes, but I found Appy League attendance stats here:

 

http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?t=l_att&lid=120&sid=l120

 

Elizabethton's average is 811. Nearby Johnson City is a good bit larger; probably fans from surrounding communities also show up occasionally. (Johnson City's Cards draw much more.) I'm guessing the whole league will be lost?

 

I think many of us know what it's like to lose a local institution.

 

I can believe that is the announced attendance and it might even be the average.  At the beginning of the season Ft Myers seems to get much bigger crowds so maybe that lifts the average up.

 

So, regardless, the short season regular season is 68 games.  Thirty four home games gives a total attendance of 27,574.  The best tickets for a Miracle game (I am not calling them the Mighty Mussels) is $9.   So, if every ticket the E-Twins sell is $9, their entire ticket revenue is almost $250,000.   

 

The economic impact to any community from losing a minor league baseball ian't even detectable.

[Twodogs]

I can believe that is the announced attendance and it might even be the average. At the beginning of the season Ft Myers seems to get much bigger crowds so maybe that lifts the average up.

 

So, regardless, the short season regular season is 68 games. Thirty four home games gives a total attendance of 27,574. The best tickets for a Miracle game (I am not calling them the Mighty Mussels) is $9. So, if every ticket the E-Twins sell is $9, their entire ticket revenue is almost $250,000.

 

The economic impact to any community from losing a minor league baseball ian't even detectable.

That's what the team brought in as far as ticket sales, but there are restaurants and other businesses that feed off of some of those good night's. Those games probably make a difference in the bottom lines of some of those places. When I went to NDSU, I bartended at a bar that was close to the school, it was called Jim Lauerman's No. 2 Saloon, that bar was partially in charge of the concessions for an independent league baseball team the FM RedHawks. It was a big part of their income at the time. So I'm sure there are businesses in and around E-towns stadium that will be affected big time if the team is no more. Not to mention sales tax, yeah it's not that much money, but for the bottom line of a really small town it is, and what if the property values go down at the same time a few businesses go out of business because of the situation. Yeah compared to Minneapolis, these numbers are peanuts, but a town of 13,000 could be affected some.

[old nurse]

 

That's what the team brought in as far as ticket sales, but there are restaurants and other businesses that feed off of some of those good night's. Those games probably make a difference in the bottom lines of some of those places. When I went to NDSU, I bartended at a bar that was close to the school, it was called Jim Lauerman's No. 2 Saloon, that bar was partially in charge of the concessions for an independent league baseball team the FM RedHawks. It was a big part of their income at the time. So I'm sure there are businesses in and around E-towns stadium that will be affected big time if the team is no more. Not to mention sales tax, yeah it's not that much money, but for the bottom line of a really small town it is, and what if the property values go down at the same time a few businesses go out of business because of the situation. Yeah compared to Minneapolis, these numbers are peanuts, but a town of 13,000 could be affected some.

811 people a night for 34 nights. Some impact, but if your business was dependent on that little bit of business it was not on good ground to begin with.

[Nine of twelve]

 

811 people a night for 34 nights. Some impact, but if your business was dependent on that little bit of business it was not on good ground to begin with.

I'm not a business person, but I would guess that in a small town like Elizabethton the margin is probably pretty tight to begin with. Every little bit makes a difference, and the loss of even a small portion of your business could make the difference between being able to stay open and having to close up.

[mlhouse]

 

I'm not a business person, but I would guess that in a small town like Elizabethton the margin is probably pretty tight to begin with. Every little bit makes a difference, and the loss of even a small portion of your business could make the difference between being able to stay open and having to close up.

 

811 people a night for 34 nights. Some impact, but if your business was dependent on that little bit of business it was not on good ground to begin with.

 

 

Exactly.   That is 10% of the year, a small fraction of the people.  

 

While MLB might be considering some cut back in their costly minor league systems, my gut feeling is that they are using these releases to leverage the local communities for more and more subsidies.  

 

But, the fact is that the family entertainment budget is almost a fixed factor.  If minor league baseball disappeared from Ft Myers tomorrow my spending on entertainment would not change.  Instead of purchasing tickets to go to a Miracle game I would just substitute some other spending instead.  Another movie, dining out, comedy show, Dave and Buster evening, maybe a high school or FGCU game.   

 

I am a huge fan of minor league baseball games.  I go to several a year and probably would go to more except teh weather in SW FLA is so unpredictable.   At the same time, subsidies for minor league baseball, as they do for all sports, do not pay off.  They are terrible investments. 

 

[Twodogs]

811 people a night for 34 nights. Some impact, but if your business was dependent on that little bit of business it was not on good ground to begin with.

Mayville state probably has about 900 to 1000 students that attend. If that college closed what impact do you think that would have on the city of Mayville? Where as if Hamline University in St. Paul closed it probably wouldn't have much of an effect on the Minneapolis/St. Paul economy as compared to Mayville State closing in Mayville North Dakota. So my point is that a small town will probably be affected by a closure of their minor league baseball team whereas a bigger town probably won't be affected much at all.

[old nurse]

 

Mayville state probably has about 900 to 1000 students that attend. If that college closed what impact do you think that would have on the city of Mayville? Where as if Hamline University in St. Paul closed it probably wouldn't have much of an effect on the Minneapolis/St. Paul economy as compared to Mayville State closing in Mayville North Dakota. So my point is that a small town will probably be affected by a closure of their minor league baseball team whereas a bigger town probably won't be affected much at all.

thirty some home games. It is entertainment money.It is not like they would have other baseball nearby. The revenue would go somewhere locally.  It would as likely get spent somewhere locally.  A college with campus classes is a far different thing than entertainment dollars. Far different in the local labor needs. The college has 115 administrative staff. Buildings and grounds crew. as there are more buildings and grounds  There is more support staff for athletics than a minor league team.  A closer example would be the circus not coming to town.

 

What economic impact would the Badlands Big Sticks have on Dickinson?

[Twodogs]

811 people a night for 34 nights. Some impact, but if your business was dependent on that little bit of business it was not on good ground to begin with.

Yeah, you make a good point and I didn't clarify, that's why I went back and re copied the original post that I quoted. For sure a college has federally funded dollars and they employ a lot of people with that federal and state money. What I was comparing it to was the local businesses that would be affected, such as the local coffee shop, the local sporting goods stores, etc.... With a loss of people in that area, even for 34 days is going to have a big impact on a small business, as they probably saw an uptick in traffic on those nights. But now that you mention it, as far as entertainment dollars go, if the town is smallish enough, there might not be that many entertainment options as in a bigger town and as a result the people living there might very likely go to another bigger town to spend their entertainment dollars. So for instance, if Mayville state just shut down all of their sporting events, then the local population would drive to Grand Forks or Fargo to spend their entertainment dollars and the local area would be out that money too, not just the extra traffic around the local businesses and such. So yeah it can have an effect on a small town whereas you are correct, in a bigger city they have movie theaters and many other entertainment options that some small towns don't have. So it will have much more of an effect on Elizabethan than on Fort Meyers.

[biggentleben]

For those wanting to downplay the impact of the loss of a minor league team on a community:

https://thecardinalnation.com/the-downward-slide-since-springfield-illinois-lost-affiliated-baseball/

[old nurse]

 

For those wanting to downplay the impact of the loss of a minor league team on a community:

https://thecardinalnation.com/the-downward-slide-since-springfield-illinois-lost-affiliated-baseball/

Baseball was gone from Springfield from 2002-2007. There is not a single word in the article of during that time that there was the demise of Springfield. None, nada, zippo.  There was also not a word in there about them having to decide what public works program not to do so as to fund a stadium. There were words of declining attendance but nothing in terms of a connection to life going bad for anyone other than a sportswriter in Springfield.

[Major League Ready]

 

For those wanting to downplay the impact of the loss of a minor league team on a community:

https://thecardinalnation.com/the-downward-slide-since-springfield-illinois-lost-affiliated-baseball/

 

Minor league baseball is a nice source of entertainment for a small town. However, I think the relative impact is being dramatized here. Minor league teams have minimal impact as an employer. I would say jobs are more crucial to the relative health of a small town than one particular source of entertainment.

[Nine of twelve]

 

Minor league baseball is a nice source of entertainment for a small town. However, I think the relative impact is being dramatized here. Minor league teams have minimal impact as an employer. I would say jobs are more crucial to the relative health of a small town than one particular source of entertainment.

Depends on the size of the town. I would guess that a large AAA city like Columbus or Indianapolis would feel very little overall impact from the loss of the team. I would guess that a very small town like Elizabethton would probably feel much more of an impact even though it's a very low level minor league team. And again, it's not just the employer/employee impact it's the associated economic impact and having that source of entertainment making the town a better place to live.

[Major League Ready]

 

Depends on the size of the town. I would guess that a large AAA city like Columbus or Indianapolis would feel very little overall impact from the loss of the team. I would guess that a very small town like Elizabethton would probably feel much more of an impact even though it's a very low level minor league team. And again, it's not just the employer/employee impact it's the associated economic impact and having that source of entertainment making the town a better place to live.

 

This is marketing and economics 101.  A town of 15,000 is just not big enough to sustain a MiLB team. There are a number of offerings small town residents would like to have that are not viable in a small town. I bet they would like to have a Home Depot too.

[DocBauer]

The actual milb franchises exist, run and maintain from limited TV and radio deals, but count on gate receipts, concessions and the such much more as their lifeblood. But aren't player salaries paid for by the parent club? Someone please correct me here if I'm wrong.

 

Even in this crazy, mixed up pandemic situation, don't the owners HAVE to find a way to have at least some sort of partial season or re-configured EST? Despite a small percentage of players who actually reach the ML and contribute, much less become regular performers, it is still the lifeblood of the MLB product. For the future of MLB, can they really expect some sort of expanded roster to work with only top prospects on some sort of reserve capacity to keep the integrity of the game intact?

 

Need to find some way to pay the milb players, and engage their development for this season even on a limited basis. If not, then guys quitting, limited drafts, limited signings, MLB is going to end up with a potentially inferior product in the next couple of years with guys promoted before they are ready