Marwin Gonzalez Addresses Media, Expresses Regret

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I don’t see how beating your child with a switch and stealing signs during a baseball game are worthy of the same level of derision, but I guess it’s your choice how to feel.

I'm pretty sure that's not what Mike said, like AT ALL.

 

Don't put words into other posters' mouths, especially when they're that derogatory in nature.

[bird]

 

Seth asked, ‘What more could he do?’ And this is a good answer. Some gesture like this could go a long way. I don’t know him so will take him at face value and believe he is truly sorry.

 

 

But you're right. Acts of contrition would go a long way beyond words that were coached and then a message to us all that we don't deserve having our questions answered. Great he feels remorse. About what exactly? About what damage? Who is he personally responsible for hurting? Besides his fans?

 

Give me a better reason to forgive you, Marwin. SHOW some accountability.

[Blake]

 

I didn't read a full transcript of what was said today. I'm certain there are other questions people would want him to speak about.

 

Why can't he do more than what he did? There literally is no punishment for the players. He can't do more than saying he regrets it?

 

I'm not of the camp that says all the players should be kicked out, never to play again or anything like that (though I would favor some form of punishment or fine). I'm also not of the camp that says society gets to decide when someone is forgiven for whatever public wrong they have done. But it strikes me that Marwin (and probably others) wants to be seen as being remorseful without really having to answer any tough questions. And I understand wanting that - wanting it to go away. But the way to make it go away isn't by saying "I regret it" AND "I won't talk about it any more."

Yes.

[deanlambrecht]

 

The MLBPA would have fought any punishment the commissioner tried to levy against players, and the commissioner would have lost such a fight because the burden of proof would be so high. (A lot higher than counting the number of "bangs" in each player's plate appearances.)

 

The commissioner was able to punish the teams, front offices, and managers because their employment isn't protected by a union and collective bargaining agreement. There's a much lower burden of proof involved.

 

I'm not entirely sure, having not reviewed the MLBPA contract (I'm a criminal defense lawyer, so contract law understanding is essentially confined to law school for me).   I also haven't seen Gonzalez' contract or any other subsequently signed player participant's contract.   But it seems to me that the contracts the players subsequently signed could be voided as they were bargained for based partially on fraudulent statistical data.   Hell, Gonzalez has a career season, admits to cheating, and it seems to me the Twins should have a right to recovery.

 

Any contract attorneys on this site able to chime in?

[Riverbrian]

This is perhaps the biggest scandal in baseball history. I won't minimize the damage done by it.

 

The damage done is impossibly to quantify because there is depth way below the surface of an ill-gotten world series title. 

 

However tomorrow is a new day and one thing I have learned is this: 

 

Holding grudges is a terrible way to go through life.

 

If you want to hold a grudge, that is your choice but you will be the one who walks around with it. If that bitter feeling you hold inside, keeps you warm and happy. I'll never understand you. 

 

Baseball needs to move forward, grudges are just going to slow the moving forward part.  

 

 

[stringer bell]

Between the lines, I had become a big fan of Marwin Gonzalez. I like the way he goes about his business on the field, never complained about moving around the diamond and was a good defender at multiple positions. Of course, I was also hoping he could have an encore of his career season in 2017. 

 

Off the field, I never heard much either positive or negative. Now we have verification that he participated in the scandal and he has expressed his regret. I guess I try to put myself in his situation and wonder if I'd do the same thing, particularly if everyone else was doing it. I'd love to say I would do the right thing, but I really don't know. 

 

I don't know what else Gonzalez can do, particularly when it wasn't just him. Also, he's no longer an Astro. I said earlier that the small price Gonzalez pays will be on his next contract. With career season nullified and also three years ago (four when he is a free agent), and with this scandal in the public, it is possible Gonzalez' career will be over after this contract or he will make considerably less money than he might have. Is it enough? Probably not.

 

I suspect that cheating, in one form or another, is far more widespread than the general public knows. I guess those that get caught and express remorse do what most would do, no more no less. While I will forgive Gonzalez for what he did, I won't forget and I doubt I will continue to be a big fan of Marwin for his (most likely) final season with my favorite team. I will, however, hope that he helps the Twins win. I happen to believe the things Marwin provides will help the Minnesota Twins win games.  

 

 

[USAFChief]

This is perhaps the biggest scandal in baseball history. I won't minimize the damage done by it.

 

 

Boy, I dont agree. IMO Pete Rose, the manager of the Cincinnati Reds, gambling on baseball--including games which he was managing--is a scandal multiple orders of magnitude bigger than this.

 

This is big, and ugly, but it doesnt lead me to believe there's any chance games could have been lost intentionally.

 

Nothing can be as corrosive to the integrity of competition as the hint of an idea that games are being lost on purpose. Gambling does that.

[dougd]

The world just learned of the Astros’ cheating. Inside baseball, it was an open secret.

 

This article from the Washington Post advances the discussion, I think.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/mlb/astros-cheating-open-secret/2020/02/11/1830154c-4c41-11ea-9b5c-eac5b16dafaa_story.html

 

Before the World Series, several Dodgers reached out to Brian Dozier, for example.

 

The fans can keep Astro players out of the All-Star game, as a start. As for Marwin, I think we may be demanding a level of heroics that few of us could achieve. 

 

 

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I'm not entirely sure, having not reviewed the MLBPA contract (I'm a criminal defense lawyer, so contract law understanding is essentially confined to law school for me).   I also haven't seen Gonzalez' contract or any other subsequently signed player participant's contract.   But it seems to me that the contracts the players subsequently signed could be voided as they were bargained for based partially on fraudulent statistical data.   Hell, Gonzalez has a career season, admits to cheating, and it seems to me the Twins should have a right to recovery.

 

Any contract attorneys on this site able to chime in?

I'm definitely not a contract lawyer but the MLBPA has close to an air-tight CBA about player punishment and contract voiding. A player contract isn't just a contract, it's a contract under the massive umbrella of a collective agreement that restricts certain kinds of contracts, their agreements, and how they are terminated.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Boy, I dont agree. IMO Pete Rose, the manager of the Cincinnati Reds, gambling on baseball--including games which he was managing--is a scandal multiple orders of magnitude bigger than this.

This is big, and ugly, but it doesnt lead me to believe there's any chance games could have been lost intentionally.

Nothing can be as corrosive to the integrity of competition as the hint of an idea that games are being lost on purpose. Gambling does that.

Losing baseball games on purpose will always be worse than cheating to win baseball games.

 

I don't see how this is really in question.

[h2oface]

 

Agreed.

The Commioner’s office efforts to not allow this to stain his legacy like Selig’s was by steroids is paying dividends. A lot of apologists out there.

This is right up there with Shoeless Joe and crew throwing the World Series, IMO.

 

And Shoeless Joe had backed out. Pesky details.

[Riverbrian]

Boy, I dont agree. IMO Pete Rose, the manager of the Cincinnati Reds, gambling on baseball--including games which he was managing--is a scandal multiple orders of magnitude bigger than this.

This is big, and ugly, but it doesnt lead me to believe there's any chance games could have been lost intentionally.

Nothing can be as corrosive to the integrity of competition as the hint of an idea that games are being lost on purpose. Gambling does that.

I threw a “perhaps” in there because the lines get real blurry when trying to rank bad things.   

 

Is it worse to be trampled by a herd of water buffalo or get stuck in an elevator with an angry badger or is it worse to live in Nebraska?

 

For the record... It has never been proven that Pete Rose bet against his team. The Dowd report never claimed he did.

 

No bookie is going to take that bet BTW.

 

It would be like me saying “Hey Chief... I’ll Bet you that I will spill this water all over the floor”. And you say “I’ll give you 4-1 odds.” And then I pour the water on the floor and you say “Ok you win this time... let’s go double or nothing.... here’s another glass of water”.

 

I was pretty young during the Black Sox Scandal so the historical significance is lost on me and I’m not the type to hold a grudge. 

[Riverbrian]

Losing baseball games on purpose will always be worse than cheating to win baseball games.

 

I don't see how this is really in question.

Agreed

 

And the actions of an entire team will always be worse than the action of a single person. 

 

"perhaps"? 

[SarasotaBill]

What I want:

- Apology

- Donate playoff earnings to charity

- Vacate Title (player should come out and say this)

[Doctor Wu]

 

This is perhaps the biggest scandal in baseball history. I won't minimize the damage done by it.

 

The damage done is impossibly to quantify because there is depth way below the surface of an ill-gotten world series title. 

 

However tomorrow is a new day and one thing I have learned is this: 

 

Holding grudges is a terrible way to go through life.

 

If you want to hold a grudge, that is your choice but you will be the one who walks around with it. If that bitter feeling you hold inside, keeps you warm and happy. I'll never understand you. 

 

Baseball needs to move forward, grudges are just going to slow the moving forward part.  

I'm not so sure this is about holding grudges. It's more about playing the game fairly and showing accountability. And should the players who were involved also be punished? I think that's a fair question. Grudges are something else.

[USAFChief]

 

Is it worse to be trampled by a herd of water buffalo or get stuck in an elevator with an angry badger or is it worse to live in Nebraska?

 

 

 

 

Yes.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

When someone apologizes, the person being apologized to, has 2 choices: 1) accept the apology or 2) don't accept it. I have tended to accept, rather than analyze,   apologies during my life and that works better for me. I, for one, accept Marwin's apology and am ready to move on.  If Cora or Bregman or Hinch or Beltran apologized, I would feel the same way. My father taught me that when I did something wrong, man up and admit it and apologize.  That's what Marwin did. It's very difficult to do that, especially when there is a close bond between a group who did something wrong. 

So much this... we as a society have a forgiveness problem, and there's literally nothing anyone can do to earn that forgiveness once a line has been crossed. 

 

The truth is that none of us know if Marwin is contrite or not... and nothing will change it if he is or is not... accept it and move on. 

[FritzDahmus]

Build them billion dollar stadiums, pay them tens of millions to play ball, and networks rake in billions in AD $$$ -------------- and this is what you get.

 

You get people "looking" the other way after obvious cheating. They don't even bother taking away awards or trophies.

 

Different era....same reasons for cheating. The difference is they now have a Player's Union to tell them being "remorseful" is enough.

[Riverbrian]

 

I'm not so sure this is about holding grudges. It's more about playing the game fairly and showing accountability. And should the players who were involved also be punished? I think that's a fair question. Grudges are something else.

 

The intent of grudges going forward have been announced by others in this and other threads. 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Vanimal46]

So much this... we as a society have a forgiveness problem, and there's literally nothing anyone can do to earn that forgiveness once a line has been crossed.

 

The truth is that none of us know if Marwin is contrite or not... and nothing will change it if he is or is not... accept it and move on.

We also have an apology problem in the US, where half-assed statements of “remorse” are blindly accepted by the public. I think Comcast is more sincere when they “apologize” during times when my internet is acting up.

[Tomj14]

 

But, I am curious what more people want Marwin Gonzalez (or others) to say at this point?

What I want to them to say or be is honest, I want them to say what Harry Reid said about lying about Romney not paying taxes "Romney didn't win, did he?"

 

I would like Gonzalez and the rest to admit they cheated and they won, simple.

 

Edit: and i will add;  they should say if people don't like it blame MLB for being too darn cheap to put an official in the dugout to stop things like this from happening.

[scottz]

 

One thing in life to learn is...... you should punish yourself, but you shouldn't keep punishing yourself (or your children) for the same thing, over and over, once you have come clean. Once is enough. All the players got immunity (not their decision) so they would tell the truth in the investigation. Some will try to punish them all year from the stands, like they have never done anything that if the whole stadium knew about, they would be shamed as well. Plus, there will still be a goal to accomplish the same result in stealing signs in other ways. The penalty for doing it electronically aided is clear, but the goal and end result which is the same no matter how you do it will still try to be achieved all year long, every game. 

 

I also don't believe the Astros, Red Sox, and Yankees were/are the only teams doing it in some kind of aided way. Hell, nobody does anything....... until they get caught, eh?

 

Let's play ball.

I agree you shouldn't punish yourself over and over. But what he did isn't what I would call punishing himself even one time. Again, it isn't like I'm suggesting he's not forgiven until every fan says he's forgiven, I'm just that saying "I'm sorry, now let's move on" doesn't really strike me as remorse.

 

I thought the suggestion of selling his World Series ring for charity was an excellent idea. If I worked on Marwin's PR team, I'd push this concept to him to see if he was receptive.

[dex8425]

 

My question has always been the same. What constitutes stealing signs? If I'm a coach and I figure out that cross arms twice then touch nose means "bunt," and I signal the 3rd baseman to move in, will I be in trouble? I doubt it. I am wondering how "stealing" is actually defined. How are the lines drawn? I have a feeling that it is quite subjective.

It's not subjective. Using technology to steal signs and relay them to the batter in real time is 100% cheating. It's explicitly against the rules. 

 

Your hypothetical scenario is not cheating. Nobody would say that's cheating and it's not against the rules.

 

[Mike Sixel]

I don’t see how beating your child with a switch and stealing signs during a baseball game are worthy of the same level of derision, but I guess it’s your choice how to feel.

I didn't say any such thing. Not even close. I said I wouldn't be rooting for Marwin.

[dex8425]

 

I think auctioning off a World Series ring for charity would really say "I'm sorry."

Didn't Jose Canseco do that? Or did he just sell it?

[IAMNFan]

 

I appreciate that he discussed it at all. However...

• "...he communicated through the Twins that it would be the last time he addressed the topic this season."

"I'm sorry. But now that it's behind us, let's all just move on. I'm remorseful. I'm just not *that* remorseful."

 

 

_____________________________________________________________________

 

So if he continued to talk about it, he would be more remorseful?

 

I bet the Twins want this behind them also.  Why let this tarnish what is about to be a top 10 season, potentially, in club history?

 

[IAMNFan]

 

I agree with your second sentence above. The second paragraph is true.

 

But, I am curious what more people want Marwin Gonzalez (or others) to say at this point? He expressed regret. He can't really do any more than that.

The Commish represents the owners.  He is just a puppet.  So saying the Commish is clueless is saying the owners of a top 3 sports organization are clueless.  Is that what you are saying?  I would guess if there was a majority of the owners who were dissatisfied with the Commish, he would have been sent packing at this point.  

I question the other teams more myself.  Why didn't they adapt, if they knew it was going on?  Twins of 2017, look pretty inept in this scenario.  Berrios looks awful.  Why weren't they able to change things up?  

Everyone's personal responsibility in this matter was/is questionable.

[TFRazor]

At least Marwin apologized. More than you can say for Altuve and Bregman

[Blake]

 

Players were granted immunity at the start of the investigation, in an attempt to get to the truth. 

 

In addition, the letter the commissioner sent out in 2017, specifically addressing this issue, make clear GMs and Managers would be held accountable for violations.

This reminds me of what I used to tell my kids when they were growing up.

 

I'd tell them, "It's not a matter of whether or not I know what you're up to, it's a matter of whether I'll say anything about what you're up to."

 

Sounds like clubs were warned to knock it off and ignored the warning.

[woolywoolhouse]

Former MLB pitcher Mike Bolsinger is suing the 2017 Astros. He pitched one inning in relief for Toronto in Houston in August 2017, was lit up for 4 runs, and was immediately sent down to the minors. He never pitched another MLB inning again. 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/02/11/lit-up-by-2017-astros-he-never-pitched-mlb-again-now-hes-suing/

 

I checked out that inning at http://signstealingscandal.com/games/2017_08_04_tormlb_houmlb_1.html and Marwin saw three pitches from Bolsinger. Two breaking balls and the third pitch was a fastball Marwin pulled into the right-field seats for a three-run homer. You can watch Marwin's at-bat here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkwjm2oglGw&t=5663. There are no bangs during Marwin's at-bat (with a runner on second, the catcher was mixing up the signs) but the two runners on base for his homerun both were recipients of trash-can bangs (that led to a single for Reddick and a walk for Gurriel.)