Report: Twins Willing to Back Out on Blockbuster Deal

[PseudoSABR]

 

The vitriol at a team that got the medical details, and then decided they didn't like the idea as much, is amazing to me. They did nothing wrong at all.

The Redsox stated concern is that Graterol may end as a reliever, which was the Twins stated preference for him this year, so the Redsox already knew about that risk.   Scott Boris has stated that there's no injury that was revealed in the medical records, so I'm not sure what the medical records would have illuminated that the Redsox didn't already know/suspect.  

 

The real problem was their concern about Graterol being leaked to the press.

[D.C Twins]

All posturing.....

 

The Twins (or Dodgers) will end up adding a throw away prospect outside of our/their top 20 to get it done while giving the Red Sox the appearance of saving face (when in reality they will have gotten nothing more of value).

 

No question that it is absolute amateur hour going on in the Red Sox organization and that this could have a negative impact on their future dealings.  

[AceWrigley]

 

Glad to have Brusdar back. I have become spoiled the last few days with a bolstered rotation so I look forward to the next move!
Kenta Maeda I hardly knew ya

Actually, he never left.

[twins_89]

I 100% support the position of the Twins front office. I wasn't a big fan of the Maeda deal, but I could understand why Falvey agreed to the trade. Asking for more than Graterol for Maeda would have made it a horrific deal for Minnesota, so I am extremely happy that we held firm and are willing to back out.

[Mike Sixel]

The Redsox stated concern is that Graterol may end as a reliever, which was the Twins stated preference for him this year, so the Redsox already knew about that risk. Scott Boris has stated that there's no injury that was revealed in the medical records, so I'm not sure what the medical records would have illuminated that the Redsox didn't already know/suspect.

 

The real problem was their concern about Graterol being leaked to the press.

To be clear, you believe an agent, and think a front office is making baseball decisions based on fan reaction?

[drivlikejehu]

 

To be clear, you believe an agent, and think a front office is making baseball decisions based on fan reaction?

 

The fact is that the Red Sox already knew Graterol had TJ, had been on the DL with a shoulder issue, and moved to the bullpen by the Twins. For them to be surprised, Graterol's medicals would have to show that he basically is done as a professional pitcher. 

 

If that's true, we should find out soon, whether his arm falls off in spring training or early in the year.

[Mike Sixel]

The fact is that the Red Sox already knew Graterol had TJ, had been on the DL with a shoulder issue, and moved to the bullpen by the Twins. For them to be surprised, Graterol's medicals would have to show that he basically is done as a professional pitcher.

 

If that's true, we should find out soon, whether his arm falls off in spring training or early in the year.

Have you read any of the links posted here about what teams know before they see medicals? They know as much as us. Then their doctors get details. It isn't reasonable that those details made them fear things more?

[davidc3915]

Can’t say how proud I am of the Twins front office for standing their ground. I’m glad they didn’t buckle under the Red Sox’s outlandish demands. They need this deal more than the Dodgers or Twins do. Huzzah Falvey & Levine!

[Don Walcott]

Initially, I liked the trade because I like Maeda, and thought he would be more valuable to us for this year and the next year or two. However, the longer this drags on, the more I like the idea of getting Brusdar back and supporting him in becoming a dominant pitcher -- whether he ultimately starts or not.

 

I think it's fine to let Boras do the dirty work of calling out Boston for shenanigans (if that's what happened). Not sure why they wanted to back out or renegotiate the deal, but that's what they did. And FSG, as a company have done this before in Europe, where Liverpool backed out of a deal for Nabil Fekir due to concerns about his medical. That ultimately turned a potentially 50 million Euro player into a 20 million Euro player. The player still insists that it was untrue that there is any medical concerns about his knee, and there are rumors that the deal was stopped because Liverpool had concerns about his personality. So Boras may have a point to pursue here with the Red Sox.
 

And I hope this results in Graterol pitching with a chip on his shoulder

 

Yeah, they come to snuff the Brusdar, but you know he ain't gonna die!!

[drivlikejehu]

 

Have you read any of the links posted here about what teams know before they see medicals? They know as much as us. Then their doctors get details. It isn't reasonable that those details made them fear things more?

 

If the Red Sox were that worried about getting a pitching prospect with health concerns, they already knew more than enough to avoid Graterol. The process just doesn't add up for me. 

 

Keep in mind that the deal was Graterol for Maeda. If Graterol was a low health risk, that would be a huge overpay. That's why the Twins weren't willing to offer Balazovic (or presumably Duran).

 

So with Graterol, there was already an injury-risk discount. Maeda isn't an elite player and can't really command top 50 talent in return. 

 

In other words, the Red Sox effectively asked for Graterol to get upside along with the injury-risk discount, and then said, eh he's an injury risk, we want him plus another top prospect, in exchange for Maeda, which is ludicrous.

 

So while I would ordinarily not fault a team for rejecting a player after reviewing medical documentation, the overall picture here isn't right.

[AlwaysinModeration]

I’d rather have Graterol as a Twin, personally. Maeda could have been a slight upgrade to the rotation, I suppose. But I kind of liked the plan of going into the season with Berrios/Odorizzi/Bailey/Thorpe/Dobnak/Romero, see what you’ve got, and then upgrading to Pineda in 1.5 months, and Hill after the trade deadline. Chacin as a flyer.

 

I hope it falls through.

[bunsen82]

 

I’d rather have Graterol as a Twin, personally. Maeda could have been a slight upgrade to the rotation, I suppose. But I kind of liked the plan of going into the season with Berrios/Odorizzi/Bailey/Thorpe/Dobnak/Romero, see what you’ve got, and then upgrading to Pineda in 1.5 months, and Hill after the trade deadline. Chacin as a flyer.

I hope it falls through.

Graterols upside is tempting, possible #1 starter, possible elite closer.  We will like get 4 very good years of Maeda of #2 pitching quality.  The issue is Graterol has just as much chance at flaming out.  If his velocity decreases there is not much left to work with.  The trade as previously constructed was fair.  Its starts getting a little overdone if we have to add in another top 20 prospect.  Although ultimately if its just a thrown in, no harm no foul.  My gut feel this was all to put more pressure on the Red Sox to make a decision. 

[Squirrel]

 

Have you read any of the links posted here about what teams know before they see medicals? They know as much as us. Then their doctors get details. It isn't reasonable that those details made them fear things more?

I don't disagree. Their medical team concluded what most already knew. I think it's reasonable to think that they thought they could find the right tweak and have an ace starter. and their medicals confirmed what others already knew and were already saying. That's reasonable. But what's not reasonable is their handling after that. And asking for a top 10 ON TOP OF Graterol? That's where it gets shady for me. The 'Come on Twins, cough it up' attitude. Do you also think it reasonable that Falvey made other offers and suggestions? I do. But Boston seemed intent on Graterol AND another top 10 in our system. Something wasn't quite right there. If Graterol is 'damaged goods' ... as he was called in the Boston press, which really isn't the truth ... then why still want him at all? Yeah ... this isn't truly about the medicals, imo.

[Dantes929]

 

To be clear, you believe an agent, and think a front office is making baseball decisions based on fan reaction?

I don't believe an agent.   Do I believe a proposed  trade of a really popular player that creates a strong backlash of criticism from fans can influence a front office to find a way to appease them in some way either by backing out or asking for more?   Yeah, I think its possible.   For example, though many now say they were against the Twins extending Mauer to that contract, at the time, at least in the Trib and other forums, it was overwhelmingly, near 100% that the Twins better not go cheap on Mauer with the new stadium coming.    I thought it was a bad baseball decision but a great PR decision and yes, I think fan opinion influenced that signing just like I think it influenced the Puckett signing years before. 

[jorgenswest]

Graterol is definitely a health risk with a high upside. If there wasn’t a health risk it would take much more than Maeda to get him.

 

At this point the Twins need to bet on the upside. They have the prospect capital to acquire starting pitching and have now shown their willingness to part with that capital.

[zwiefz]

Bunch of random thoughts:

 

1)Yes, the Twins said they were starting Graterol out in bullpen.  But everything I remember seeing said that was because he didn't have anything more to prove in the minors, but also had never had his innings pushed to the point where he could be a year long starter.  Don't remember anyone every saying he would NEVER be a starter publicly.  The medical records may say it, but the Red Sox would never have known that.  Starters are more valuable than relievers, even if it would have taken him a year or two to get stretched out to that point.

 

2)Of course Boras would say that he is healthy enough to start,  Starters get more money than relievers.  What else would an agent say?

 

3)If I were in charge I would still see if the Dodgers wanted to do a straight up swap of their own.  Last year they used Maeda primarily as a reliever(for multiple reasons it appears).  They clearly don't see him as a starter.  But if they trade him they have an opening in the bullpen.  So Graterol would be a cheaper, higher ceiling option.  Regardless of the Red Sox, a trade between LA and MN still makes sense to me, both are trading from areas of strength to address areas of relative weakness.

[Don Walcott]

 

I don't disagree. Their medical team concluded what most already knew. I think it's reasonable to think that they thought they could find the right tweak and have an ace starter. and their medicals confirmed what others already knew and were already saying. That's reasonable. But what's not reasonable is their handling after that. And asking for a top 10 ON TOP OF Graterol? That's where it gets shady for me. The 'Come on Twins, cough it up' attitude. Do you also think it reasonable that Falvey made other offers and suggestions? I do. But Boston seemed intent on Graterol AND another top 10 in our system. Something wasn't quite right there. If Graterol is 'damaged goods' ... as he was called in the Boston press, which really isn't the truth ... then why still want him at all? Yeah ... this isn't truly about the medicals, imo.

I'm beginning to agree with you. It seems like someone who gets cold feet when buying a house using the inspection report to withdraw their offer. The process is legit, and the opt out excuse can be legit, but sometimes the process is just used to get out of a deal you wish you hadn't made.

[Dantes929]

I'm a little surprised the Dodgers wouldn't just say Graterol for Maeda is a fair trade and take it on anyway without regard to the Red Sox..    By all accounts they view Maeda as expendable.   They can get out of that contract and either have a top power arm or a still attractive piece of trade value.

[tvagle]

 

Initially, I liked the trade because I like Maeda, and thought he would be more valuable to us for this year and the next year or two. However, the longer this drags on, the more I like the idea of getting Brusdar back and supporting him in becoming a dominant pitcher -- whether he ultimately starts or not.

 

I think it's fine to let Boras do the dirty work of calling out Boston for shenanigans (if that's what happened). Not sure why they wanted to back out or renegotiate the deal, but that's what they did. And FSG, as a company have done this before in Europe, where Liverpool backed out of a deal for Nabil Fekir due to concerns about his medical. That ultimately turned a potentially 50 million Euro player into a 20 million Euro player. The player still insists that it was untrue that there is any medical concerns about his knee, and there are rumors that the deal was stopped because Liverpool had concerns about his personality. So Boras may have a point to pursue here with the Red Sox.
 

And I hope this results in Graterol pitching with a chip on his shoulder

 

Yeah, they come to snuff the Brusdar, but you know he ain't gonna die!!

Mess with the Buffalo...you're gonna get the horns!

[bighat]

Unfortunate for Brusdar, regardless of how this works out.

He's been unfairly portrayed as "damaged goods", which not only hurts his potential earnings but also hurts the Twins as his trade value has plummeted if this deal doesn't go through.

 

I do know one thing: Brusdar will be VERY motivated, regardless of where he plays. Kid's gotta be ticked off and I don't blame him.

[CharlieDee]

Screw Boston. 

[Blake]

 

To be clear, you believe an agent, and think a front office is making baseball decisions based on fan reaction?

It really wouldn't surprise if the Boston fan base push back isn't affecting this deal. From what I understand, they're pretty rabid.

[h2oface]

 

Unfortunate for Brusdar, regardless of how this works out.

He's been unfairly portrayed as "damaged goods", which not only hurts his potential earnings but also hurts the Twins as his trade value has plummeted if this deal doesn't go through.

 

I do know one thing: Brusdar will be VERY motivated, regardless of where he plays. Kid's gotta be ticked off and I don't blame him.

 

All it takes is a fine season by Graterol and it all goes away. He isn't going to get any more money this year, anyway. It is up to Graterol to be a star, and he will be paid when he can. 

[dbminn]

 

I'm beginning to agree with you. It seems like someone who gets cold feet when buying a house using the inspection report to withdraw their offer. The process is legit, and the opt out excuse can be legit, but sometimes the process is just used to get out of a deal you wish you hadn't made.

 

That analogy only works if you move on to another house. Boston just asked for a second house to be added to the deal.

[Linus]

My faith in Falvine just grew substantially. Keeping Graterol May end up working out for the best anyway

[Don Walcott]

 

That analogy only works if you move on to another house. Boston just asked for a second house to be added to the deal.

Good point. The potential buyer in this scenario then asks for monetary concessions.

[dbminn]

 

Good point. The potential buyer in this scenario then asks for monetary concessions.

 

Well, we know the solution can't be to bring Graterol up to code. 

 

I'd be fine if they added a lower prospect - that would probably be equivalent to monetary considerations. 

[Don Walcott]

 

Well, we know the solution can't be to bring Graterol up to code. 

 

I'd be fine if they added a lower prospect - that would probably be equivalent to monetary considerations. 

I hope they stand firm. This aggression will not stand, man. New shyte has not come to light. You want a toe, I'll get you a toe. . . .

[Dman]

 

I'm a little surprised the Dodgers wouldn't just say Graterol for Maeda is a fair trade and take it on anyway without regard to the Red Sox..    By all accounts they view Maeda as expendable.   They can get out of that contract and either have a top power arm or a still attractive piece of trade value.

 

I was thinking somewhat the same thing. I guess first they need to find out if another team values Maeda more than the Twins then they still get the deal done just with another team, but if that doesn't work then  related to what you said I was wondering if the Dodgers would take on Graterol and then Give Boston Josiah Gray.  He and Brusdar are ranked about the same in the top 100 and if Boston is satisfied with his physical then all LA loses is one top 100 prospect for another.  If Boston still wants more than that then I say have a good year and good luck when Mookie Leaves next year.

[DocBauer]

Mike has a valid point that ALL deals of this nature are ALWAYS pending medicals for everyone involved. (Deadline deals are different and often rushed through with the trading of reports). On the surface, they have done nothing wrong.

 

But I agree with Carol, and others, that something isn't right when you look closer. His previous TJ is well documented and he is 100% recovered from that. His shoulder issue last season was frustrating, but not reported as anything long term. Kid was back at work and throwing bullets afterward.

 

If Boston truly feels, now, that they overestimated his potential to stretch out to a starter, and they want the deal sweetened some, I could get it. But some sort of "we're not sure about him being a SP so we want another top 10 player IN ADDITION" just smells bad.

 

If they had asked the Dodgers or Twins for an additional prospect in the 11-30 range, or similar, I think most of us could buy that, or at least go along with it. We've seen that in amended deals before.

 

This smells of either incompetence, or regret and posturing to me.