Graterol Trade On Hold? Valuing Starters and Relievers

[USAFChief]

 

That could be, but i very much doubt that teams are in the habit of negotiating and agreeing to trades like this without receiving the medicals. Skipping that kind of due diligence, even when the decision can be reversed at the mere cost of a monstrous hit to a firm's reputation, would be an act of negligence in any industry that I've ever covered.

 

I agree that the Twins were under no obligation to share their own conclusions, even those based on medicals.

I think it's just the opposite. Teams don't see "medicals" or schedule physicals until trade parameters are agreed to. That's why we often see "pending physical" when we learn of trades on MLBTradeRumors.

 

And it's why, to the best of my knowledge, this trade was never formally announced by any of the three teams involved. It was reported widely in the media, but by none of the teams.

 

And again...the simplest explanation is, when Boston did see the medicals, they didn't like what they saw. 

 

No PR considerations, no conspiracies, no attempts to squeeze more from the Twins. They just don't like his chances of being a full time MLB reliever. My guess is the shoulder is the problem, not the elbow, but that's pure speculation.

[chpettit19]

 

 

However... I'm not sure why the Dodgers will pay the difference. If there is an issue with the Twins contribution to the thing. The Twins would have to be the team that makes up the difference so balance is restored. 

 

I believe this was basically 2 trades. The Twins agreed to send Graterol to the Dodgers in return for Maeda and the Dodgers then moved Graterol to the Sox in the Betts portion of it. With the Twins only getting Maeda in return I think it's reasonable for them to say "if we're kicking in more we want more" or "this is all we're willing to pay for Maeda." Graterol and Verdugo were the return for Betts and Price (and there was money stuff) so the Twins are certainly within their rights to say "it's not our problem that you don't feel you got enough for Betts, we agreed to a swap of Graterol for Maeda."

 

But then, to your other point, the Dodgers could then pull out of the Maeda part of the trade and give up their own prospect or find a 3rd team. But there is definitely a real reason for why the Twins wouldn't kick in any more and the Dodgers would pay the difference. Not to say they won't, but they have no reason to beyond really wanting Maeda.

 

 

 

 

[Monkeypaws]

Just keep those grubby Red Sox mitts off of Balazovic!

[bighat]

NBC Sports is now calling Brusdar "Damaged Goods" - there's no way Boston completes this trade as is with the rumors and PR swirling out there. The media influence has done too much damage at this point.

 

@NBCSBoston

 

Kenta, we hardly knew ye. My guess is that it's back to the drawing board for the Twins unfortunately.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/everyone-knew-brusdar-graterol-was-damaged-goods-everyone-except-red-sox-apparently

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

That could be, but i very much doubt that teams are in the habit of negotiating and agreeing to trades like this without receiving the medicals.

Teams don't hand over medicals on their players just because another team expresses interest. They need to know the other team is serious before handing over that valuable private information, and they do this by unofficially "agreeing in principle" to the trade first, pending medical review. Note that no official trade agreement was ever announced here.

[Vanimal46]

NBC Sports is now calling Brusdar "Damaged Goods" - there's no way Boston completes this trade as is with the rumors and PR swirling out there. The media influence has done too much damage at this point.

 

@NBCSBoston

 

Kenta, we hardly knew ye. My guess is that it's back to the drawing board for the Twins unfortunately.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/everyone-knew-brusdar-graterol-was-damaged-goods-everyone-except-red-sox-apparently

What a shame... At least the prospect people are happy to have their dominant back end reliever again.

[chpettit19]

 

NBC Sports is now calling Brusdar "Damaged Goods" - there's no way Boston completes this trade as is with the rumors and PR swirling out there. The media influence has done too much damage at this point.

 

@NBCSBoston

 

Kenta, we hardly knew ye. My guess is that it's back to the drawing board for the Twins unfortunately.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/red-sox/everyone-knew-brusdar-graterol-was-damaged-goods-everyone-except-red-sox-apparently

This is a lot like the conspiracy theories that the Sox are trying to get out of it because of unexpected bad PR. There is a 0% chance Bloom, and the rest of the org, didn't expect huge blow back on trading Betts. They were never going to get equal player value in return and it's why they made taking Price part of any possible deal. The team doesn't care that NBC Boston wrote a bad article about them. Bad articles are written every day about every team. The teams don't care.

 

Now that doesn't mean that the Twins aren't pushed out of this deal and end up with no Maeda and Graterol back. But it has absolutely nothing to do with John Tomase writing an article about Brusdar. Media influence has played no role in this trade.

[TwinsFan347]

Maeda is a good pitcher, but I'll be happy if we back out of this deal completely. Absolutely, in no way should we add anything to this deal.

[bighat]

 

Maeda is a good pitcher, but I'll be happy if we back out of this deal completely. Absolutely, in no way should we add anything to this deal.

If we add a low-level lottery ticket, I'd be okay with it - albeit grudgingly - but I don't think the Twins should have to pony up anything. It's amazing the backtracking the Sox GM has done, and how the media's run with the story about Brusdar being "damaged goods".

As others have said here, not only do we lose Maeda but Brusdar's value is taking a huge hit and the Twins won't be able to get anything for him if he stays here.

[TwinsFan347]

Graterol's perceived value is of little concern to me. I want him pitching for the Twins whether it's out of the BP or as a SP. You can never have too many arms in the BP in today's game.

 

The Red Sox created this mess let them work it out with LA.

[Lasorda_This_Out]

"The Dodgers are not going to let the Twins stand in the way. This is all about Betts. The Dodgers want him, he's been announced to the fan base. The Red Sox won't want to go through the trade speculation process again. The optimism expressed that this won't sideline the deal is probably referring to the main piece Mookie Betts. The Dodgers and Red Sox probably have a contingency plan worked out and that contingency could have the potential to uninvite the Twins to the party."

 

Fine...then the Twins should say "Thanks guys, it was fun..good luck" and keep Brusdar. No worse off or better than we were two days ago....I'm good with that (for now)....

[bird]

 

I think it's just the opposite. Teams don't see "medicals" or schedule physicals until trade parameters are agreed to. That's why we often see "pending physical" when we learn of trades on MLBTradeRumors.

 

And it's why, to the best of my knowledge, this trade was never formally announced by any of the three teams involved. It was reported widely in the media, but by none of the teams.

 

And again...the simplest explanation is, when Boston did see the medicals, they didn't like what they saw. 

 

No PR considerations, no conspiracies, no attempts to squeeze more from the Twins. They just don't like his chances of being a full time MLB reliever. My guess is the shoulder is the problem, not the elbow, but that's pure speculation.

 

 

Again, could be, but I'd still be inclined to think the medical review starts earlier with the sharing of existing medicals, and then the trade only becomes official once the acquiring team's own medical staff has a chance to complete a scheduled physical of the player.

 

Personally, I find it utterly unfathomable that the Dodgers would take on half of Price's contract without first seeing what the existing medicals tell them. But hey, what do I know? No more than your average beat writer on the subject i'm guessing.

[SpicyGarvSauce]

"Damaged goods."

 

LOL okay.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Could it be the simplest explanation? The RS looked at Graterol's medical history and didn't like what they see?

 

Sheesh. 

 

No, it can't be simple. Everyone is out to get "us" and screw "us" over. 

[Dantes929]

 

I think it's just the opposite. Teams don't see "medicals" or schedule physicals until trade parameters are agreed to. That's why we often see "pending physical" when we learn of trades on MLBTradeRumors.

 

And it's why, to the best of my knowledge, this trade was never formally announced by any of the three teams involved. It was reported widely in the media, but by none of the teams.

 

And again...the simplest explanation is, when Boston did see the medicals, they didn't like what they saw. 

 

No PR considerations, no conspiracies, no attempts to squeeze more from the Twins. They just don't like his chances of being a full time MLB reliever. My guess is the shoulder is the problem, not the elbow, but that's pure speculation.

Does anyone actually know the process for certain?    I always assumed also that sharing the past medical records were done before it gets to this stage.    The "pending physical" was the part where the acquiring team does their own physical before finalizing the deal.    Again the language seems weird.   They are not saying there are tears or damage.   They are saying they are not sure his future is  pitching 170 innings which is hardly news.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I think it's just the opposite. Teams don't see "medicals" or schedule physicals until trade parameters are agreed to. That's why we often see "pending physical" when we learn of trades on MLBTradeRumors.

 

And it's why, to the best of my knowledge, this trade was never formally announced by any of the three teams involved. It was reported widely in the media, but by none of the teams.

 

And again...the simplest explanation is, when Boston did see the medicals, they didn't like what they saw. 

 

No PR considerations, no conspiracies, no attempts to squeeze more from the Twins. They just don't like his chances of being a full time MLB reliever. My guess is the shoulder is the problem, not the elbow, but that's pure speculation.

 

100% this. 

[Dantes929]

Ok,  at least according to Rosenthal USchief is correct.     https://www.mlb.com/news/dodgers-red-sox-twins-trade-update

 

Really kind of makes me hope the deal doesn't go through, that Graterol is awesome in the pen this year and wins a couple Cy Youngs as a starter in the future.   Part of me just wants the deal to go through.   Part of me is still skeptical about the Red Sox.  

[chpettit19]

 

Does anyone actually know the process for certain?    I always assumed also that sharing the past medical records were done before it gets to this stage.    The "pending physical" was the part where the acquiring team does their own physical before finalizing the deal.    Again the language seems weird.   They are not saying there are tears or damage.   They are saying they are not sure his future is  pitching 170 innings which is hardly news.

The teams basically ask "is there anything wrong with him" and the other team tells them about any major medical concerns. The actual medical records are not shared until after it has been more or less fully agreed upon as the team wouldn't want any minor concerns being shown if a deal isn't going through and the player has privacy rights that restrict the teams from just throwing around their medical records all willy nilly.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

"The Dodgers are not going to let the Twins stand in the way. This is all about Betts. The Dodgers want him, he's been announced to the fan base. The Red Sox won't want to go through the trade speculation process again. The optimism expressed that this won't sideline the deal is probably referring to the main piece Mookie Betts. The Dodgers and Red Sox probably have a contingency plan worked out and that contingency could have the potential to uninvite the Twins to the party."

 

Fine...then the Twins should say "Thanks guys, it was fun..good luck" and keep Brusdar. No worse off or better than we were two days ago....I'm good with that (for now)....

It would amuse me to no end if the Twins contacted Boston directly and pursued Price...something like Graterol and Javier with the Sox taking on a significant portion of Price's salary (let's say more than 25%, less than 50%).

 

Then the Dodgers have to try to deal for Betts straight-up... good luck with that, you cheap bastards.

[Rich]

I hope the trade goes through. Brusdar Graterol did well in the minors with a 2.48 ERA in 51 games, but has not proven himself in the majors. Kenta Maeda has done well with the Dodgers with a 3.87 ERA in 137 games. He has a 4-6 record since returning from his injury on 5/26 so that is a concern.

[Dantes929]

 

What a shame... At least the prospect people are happy to have their dominant back end reliever again.

I tend toward that side.    I would be ok if he ends up as a dominant back end reliever.  That's a lot of value.   I was ok with the deal also.   I don't know if you can use Graterol in future arguments though since they actually did try to trade him while he was a top 3 prospect and throwing triple digits.     Its the triple digits max effort that has always concerned me about Graterol.   I love that he is able to reach those levels but think maybe he would be better served to stay at 97-99.   I know 2 or 3 or 4 mph doesn't seem like much but try adding a couple mph to your golf swing.   It ain't easy.

[Nine of twelve]

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we technically trade Graterol to the Dodgers for Maeda and the Dodgers then flipped Graterol to the BoSox as part of the Betts deal? If that's so, seems to me that the onus falls on the Dodgers to make the deal good.

If Graterol turns out to have a physical problem that invalidates his trade from the Dodgers to Boston, the Dodgers would have reason to turn around and invalidate his trade from Minnesota. It seems to me that the Twins will wind up on the hook if further compensation is required. Or, of course, if it cancels the whole trade we keep Graterol.

[NY Twins Fan]

How could they be surprised he is more a reliever than starter. Never stayed healthy as a starter and the twins announced they are making him a reliever this year.

 

If he were durable enough to be a starter with his stuff he'd be worth much more than Maeda.

[Danchat]

 

I hope the trade goes through. Brusdar Graterol did well in the minors with a 2.48 ERA in 51 games, but has not proven himself in the majors. Kenta Maeda has done well with the Dodgers with a 3.87 ERA in 137 games. He has a 4-6 record since returning from his injury on 5/26 so that is a concern.

It's kinda hard for a 20 year old kid to establish himself in the majors, especially when he missed half the 2019 season with a shoulder issue. He still needs time to work on his pitches before he fully develops.

 

Really, a W-L argument? Looking through his gamelog, he did have an 0-6 record in June and July last season. Let's check out how he actually pitched in those games:

 

L1: 4.1 IP, 5 ER - Dodgers offense scored 3 runs

L2: 5 IP, 2 ER - offense scored 2 runs

L3: 7.2 IP, 3 ER - offense scored 1 run

L4: 5.2 IP, 3 ER - offense scored 1 run

L5: 4.1 IP, 3 ER- offense scored 4 runs

L6: 4 IP, 5 ER- offense scored 1 runs

 

Whoa, it's almost like pitcher losses are closely related to how the offense does rather than how the pitcher actually threw!

[Twodogs]

Has the trade been finalized yet?

[NY Twins Fan]

It's kinda hard for a 20 year old kid to establish himself in the majors, especially when he missed half the 2019 season with a shoulder issue. He still needs time to work on his pitches before he fully develops.

 

Really, a W-L argument? Looking through his gamelog, he did have an 0-6 record in June and July last season. Let's check out how he actually pitched in those games:

 

L1: 4.1 IP, 5 ER - Dodgers offense scored 3 runs

L2: 5 IP, 2 ER - offense scored 2 runs

L3: 7.2 IP, 3 ER - offense scored 1 run

L4: 5.2 IP, 3 ER - offense scored 1 run

L5: 4.1 IP, 3 ER- offense scored 4 runs

L6: 4 IP, 5 ER- offense scored 1 runs

 

Whoa, it's almost like pitcher losses are closely related to how the offense does rather than how the pitcher actually threw!

I agree W-L is not good metric, that was a pretty bad stretch of pitching though in the six games you mention. Maybe not 0-6 worthy but not what we'd like to see.

[Darius]

It seemed like the Twins received a clean bill of health for Dyson, but he developed the shoulder problem as he started pitching here. Just bad luck.

I was mostly joking. But, since we’re going down that road, Dyson came out and said something to the effect of “my shoulder has been killing me for years.” No way his medicals were 100% clean. If they were, it was fraudulent.

[ashbury]

 

I agree W-L is not good metric, that was a pretty bad stretch of pitching though in the six games you mention. Maybe not 0-6 worthy but not what we'd like to see.

The games Danchat listed were not consecutive starts.

 

I just took a look at Jacob deGrom's game log, and if you focus on his 8 losses in 2019 he seems like a pretty untrustworthy hurler. If that's how it goes for a Cy Young winner, it probably can be applied to nearly anyone.

[Rich]

It's kinda hard for a 20 year old kid to establish himself in the majors, especially when he missed half the 2019 season with a shoulder issue. He still needs time to work on his pitches before he fully develops.

 

Really, a W-L argument? Looking through his gamelog, he did have an 0-6 record in June and July last season. Let's check out how he actually pitched in those games:

 

L1: 4.1 IP, 5 ER - Dodgers offense scored 3 runs

L2: 5 IP, 2 ER - offense scored 2 runs

L3: 7.2 IP, 3 ER - offense scored 1 run

L4: 5.2 IP, 3 ER - offense scored 1 run

L5: 4.1 IP, 3 ER- offense scored 4 runs

L6: 4 IP, 5 ER- offense scored 1 runs

 

Whoa, it's almost like pitcher losses are closely related to how the offense does rather than how the pitcher actually threw!

 

Brusdar has talent as his 7-0 record shows last year in AA and AAA. He made it to the majors in September and had a 4.66 ERA so I hope he does well this year.

 

Maeda did better in August and September pitching out of the bullpen in September with a 3.45 ERA. Both hitting and pitching are important, as your stats of the 0-6 record indicate.

 

If Maeda can continue as a starting pitcher I think his value over a relief role will give the Twins the better deal.

[South Dakota Tom]

Like the old Casablanca line:

"I am shocked..... shocked that gambling is going on in this establishment."

 

"Your winnings, sir."