Boston getting cold feet - Graterol's health puts blockbuster on pause

[twinsnorth49]

First off you are naive to think that The Red Sox and Dodgers are not calling other teams to see what could possibly be had for Maeda. This is essentially a 3 team trade. If the Red Sox want player A, they may call up and say we need someone else to fill in for our trade, would you be interested in trading him to us? The current value is Maeda or ABC even though its from another team.

 

Also it doesn't matter who calls who, and I never stated that in the above post. What I said is if Maeda is currently the piece to get another prospect, Graterol is the highest prospect that would eventually go to the Red Sox. I also believe the Red Sox still truly like Graterol they are just trying to get an extra piece to save face after getting roasted.

It’s also a bit naive to think Boston and LA hadn’t already talked to other teams ahead of

the deal being made. If nothing but Graterol materialized beforehand, why would something better come along now? If Boston wants this deal done, they haven’t exactly approached it in a way that puts them in the drivers seat.

 

If this indeed is a save face move to the fans, I’m not sure what the hell they are going to be able to pull out of the hat to appease them, they’ve kind of played their hand.

[bunsen82]

Here is the biggest point that confirms what I believed before.  According to Lavelle the Red Sox still want Graterol.    They are just trying to get more return than they originally agreed to.   My guess is there is nothing new in the medical record than what we already know.   Right now, this really isn't hurting the Twins too much, although they need to keep Graterol in the loop, the Twins just need to stand their ground and let the Red Sox and Dodgers figure out their end, both of those teams do not want this trade to fall through. 

[howieramone2]

I just read the chat on MLBTR, our new friends still want Graterol.

[Squirrel]

 

I just read the chat on MLBTR, our new friends still want Graterol.

 

They've always wanted him. It's just now they want us to throw in more. That's what irks me. If after the medicals they decide that Graterol won't fit what they need right now, a starter who can throw lots of innings, then why agree to this before hand. I mean ... all that information was out there, unless they just thought that they could do something different with him than the Twins were and now the medicals confirmed that no, they couldn't. But they still want Graterol in addition to someone else? Um, no. Take Graterol, or another prospect ... you don't get both, and if you get both, you don't get another top 10 from our system. Seriously ... this all just reeks of bad faith and is just fishy. I don't think it had or has anything to do with the medicals at this point that that was just a ruse. And I'd like to think baseball execs wouldn't stoop to this level. But, well, hmmm ... 

[Dman]

 

Boston is shopping Maeda around?

Maeda belongs to the Dodgers, not the Red Sox.

 

I say that mainly because Boston doesn't like the return.  I don't think the Dodgers care who gets Meada as they are giving that return to Boston.  From everything I read the Dodgers aren't doing anything more it is strictly Boston and the Twins thus my earlier statement.  The Dodgers could be calling and shopping him too I have no idea but I haven't heard of them doing anything and Boston is asking MN to up the return so it sounds like a Boston issue to me.  If they don't like the return if I were them I would shop Meada to other teams and see what they are willing to offer especially if the Twins are not going to move on what they are willing to give. 

 

The Dodgers could do the same but they already had a deal setup and are not in discussions with Boston to offer more so it seems to me unless MN caves this is a take it or leave it deal unless Boston can find a return they like better then what Minnestoa is offering for Meada.  I suspect it will be hard to find a return that includes a top 100 pitcher and whether Brusdar is a starter or in the pen he helps Boston because they need pen help badly as well.  I think Boston will have an even harder time selling the return if they don't get a top 100 pitcher in return.  They don't really need position players they need pitching and I don't think many teams will be willing to give that level up for Maeda.

[howieramone2]

I used to live out east, people who talk funny think they can push you around.

[operation mindcrime]

Graterol comes back home.

E.T. phone home!

[IndianaTwin]

It seems like, in situations like this, that one of the key traits that the FO has to have is the ability to distinguish between making the deal that makes sense, regardless of the back story, vs. trying to stiff the other team out of spite.

 

I hope, and believe the FO will, do a better job of making this distinction than a fair number of the folks in this thread seem to be doing. 

 

For example, it seems a dichotomy for us to say both "We can't give them Graterol, because he's a Top 100 guy," and "We can't give them Balozovic, because he has a better chance to stay a starter, so he's worth more than Graterol." If the latter is the case, why isn't Balozovic the Top 100 guy instead of Graterol?

 

We don't know how the negotiations went. If the Twins message was honest and said, "Graterol is a stud, but we're not sure he's completely healthy," and the Sox were still interested, that's one thing, and it seems the Red Sox should suck it up. On the other hand, if the Twins hid that info in negotiations, the Sox have a right to gripe. Based on the article posted several times above, it seems very possible that the more detailed medical reports generated some questions. 

[Dman]

 

 

We don't know how the negotiations went. If the Twins message was honest and said, "Graterol is a stud, but we're not sure he's completely healthy," and the Sox were still interested, that's one thing, and it seems the Red Sox should suck it up. On the other hand, if the Twins hid that info in negotiations, the Sox have a right to gripe. Based on the article posted several times above, it seems very possible that the more detailed medical reports generated some questions. 

 

There was nothing for the Twins to hide as Graterol is not currently injured he is all systems go at this time.  His agent said the same thing and on top of that said the specialists that checked him out had no concerns about his arm at this time.  The Twins had already publicly stated that they were likely going to use Graterol in the pen this year.  So again not hiding anything.  

 

The issue is a subjective one.  He could be a starter and never have another arm issue no one knows at this point but there are some red flags that could give a team pause.  Brusdar has only pitched 100 innings once in his career so far.  Granted he is still only 21 so he hasn't had many opportunities to pitch that many innings.  Last year he suffered a shoulder impingement.   Shoulder issues can be a really serious issue for a pitcher because there generally is no good way to fix those other than rest.  From what I understand there are things in his medicals that could mean he is a greater risk for serious injury down the road but again that is subjective no one really knows it might just be X percent more likely. It is not definitive.  

 

So I am not sure exactly what the Sox are up to here.  They want us to cover that risk by adding another top 10 prospect to the deal?  And yet they and or the Dodgers won't give us anything for the potential injury risk that a 32 year old pitcher might have?  That doesn't sound fair to me.  With pitchers there is always risk of injury so if you don't like it then maybe don't trade for pitchers trade for position players instead.  I still think the Sox are dirty here until someone can come up with something really good about the medicals.  And if the medicals really are that bad then why haven't they said look this guys arm is ready to fall we need somebody else?  No they are asking for another top 10 prospect on top of Graterol.  What they are doing and asking for doesn't add up to me.

[Diesel]

If I were the Dodgers and padres, I would blackball the Red Sox. They did this to themselves.

[Dman]

And we are officially out of the trade per MLB trade rumors.  Glad we didn't budge.  I guess Boston\Dodgers found a better offer for Maeda?

 

Happy to have you back Brusdar.  I hope you close out\shut the door on many games against the Sox in the future. 

[Major League Ready]

 

it's certainly possible, probable even, the Dodgers are trying to find another team to take Maeda.

I'm pretty confident Boston isnt.

 

Actually, it makes more sense that Boston would be calling given they are the team receiving the return for Maeda. If LA is doing the calling they then need to go to Boston to determine if a given player would fly. That is a very convoluted and exceptionally inefficient approach. They know the Dodgers are willing to include Maeda so why would be a problem for them to approach teams asking them to be the 3rd team and what would they give for Maeda? The only other way I see this working is a 3-way call with teams Boston targets for specific prospects.

[Squirrel]

 

Actually, it makes more sense that Boston would be calling given they are the team receiving the return for Maeda. If LA is doing the calling they then need to go to Boston to determine if a given player would fly. That is a very convoluted and exceptionally inefficient approach. They know the Dodgers are willing to include Maeda so why would be a problem for them to approach teams asking them to be the 3rd team and what would they give for Maeda? The only other way I see this working is a 3-way call with teams Boston targets for specific prospects.

 

They could be calling around. But after all of this, and ST about to start, I'd be tempted not to answer unless they were prepared to make it worth my while ... and they aren't, given how they handled the Twins in this.

[Bob Sacamento]

Well its official the Twins pull out

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2020/02/twins-pull-out-of-mookie-betts-trade.html

[Brock Beauchamp]

I hope Falvey dropped a few expletives on Bloom before he slammed down the phone.

 

What a circus.

[Doctor Gast]

 

It seems like, in situations like this, that one of the key traits that the FO has to have is the ability to distinguish between making the deal that makes sense, regardless of the back story, vs. trying to stiff the other team out of spite.

 

I hope, and believe the FO will, do a better job of making this distinction than a fair number of the folks in this thread seem to be doing. 

 

 

 

I hope you`re not talking about my text. This like any other trade deal. If I sell you a car & give super sweet deal to help you out & you hold up your nose & you say no way bad deal , not good enough & I know you have the $. If I walk away I`m not stiffing you

[Obsvr]

Rookie GM F's up his first trade.  Boston fans going to eat him alive.

[SwainZag]

Rookie GM F's up his first trade. Boston fans going to eat him alive.

Dodgers and Sox will still get in done. Curious to see if the Twins and Dodgers will still discuss a trade out for Meada.

[IndianaTwin]

 

There was nothing for the Twins to hide as Graterol is not currently injured he is all systems go at this time.  His agent said the same thing and on top of that said the specialists that checked him out had no concerns about his arm at this time.  The Twins had already publicly stated that they were likely going to use Graterol in the pen this year.  So again not hiding anything.  

 

The issue is a subjective one.  He could be a starter and never have another arm issue no one knows at this point but there are some red flags that could give a team pause.  Brusdar has only pitched 100 innings once in his career so far.  Granted he is still only 21 so he hasn't had many opportunities to pitch that many innings.  Last year he suffered a shoulder impingement.   Shoulder issues can be a really serious issue for a pitcher because there generally is no good way to fix those other than rest.  From what I understand there are things in his medicals that could mean he is a greater risk for serious injury down the road but again that is subjective no one really knows it might just be X percent more likely. It is not definitive....

 

I think your second paragraph captures well what I was trying to say, that there is subjectivity involved. Medicine is a science, but it is also an art, and the medical professionals are each acting in the best interests of the team that is paying their salary. It doesn't seem unlikely that two doctors, one hired by the Twins and one by the Red Sox, could look at the same MRI and have different diagnoses. I suspect that's what happened here. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Dodgers and Sox will still get in done. Curious to see if the Twins and Dodgers will still discuss a trade out for Meada.

Even if the Sox get a deal done, Bloom looks really bad.

[bunsen82]

Lavelle waffles, says Twins are still in it.   So much for sources. 

 

I do think the Twins are putting pressure on and saying this needs done ASAP or we are leaving.   

[Major League Ready]

 

Well its official the Twins pull out

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2020/02/twins-pull-out-of-mookie-betts-trade.html

 

I bet they would still do it if Boston said OK. This could be maneuvering. It puts even more pressure on Boston now that the option of accepting as is appears to be off the table. 

[IndianaTwin]

 

I hope you`re not talking about my text. This like any other trade deal. If I sell you a car & give super sweet deal to help you out & you hold up your nose & you say no way bad deal , not good enough & I know you have the $. If I walk away I`m not stiffing you

 

I wasn't talking about any one post in particular. 

[KirbyDome89]

I think Graterol lost a bit of shine in this whole ordeal, which is unfortunate for MN moving forward as they need to add pitching. I also don't think Boston is guilty of doing anything that we wouldn't want the Twins to do in this same scenario.

 

The Sox almost certainly viewed Graterol as a starter. They obviously were aware of the shoulder issue last season, the prior TJ surgery, and his move to the pen this season, but once they dug into the medicals some red flag(s) must've shown up. Betts was moving regardless, so the notion that Boston got cold feet based on the return doesn't hold much weight. I'd also take anything Scott Boras says with a massive grain of salt. Boston wanted more after concluding that the starting pitching prospect they thought they were getting wasn't likely to start, and the Twins weren't interested in throwing in another top talent. MN walked, and I'm fine with that.

 

If the roles were reversed, we'd be singing the praises of Falvey for not committing to a deal he wasn't comfortable with and/or attempting to extract more after his medical team determined the initial projection was lofty. It sucks that MN is left holding the bag in terms of rehabbing Graterol's luster, but I'm not sure I can fault the Sox for their part. Deals fall apart, or are amended, it happens. 

 

 

[twins_89]

I think the Twins keeping Graterol could end up as a very good outcome. I'd much rather see the team use something like Graterol+Larnach as the basis to trade for a pitcher with a higher upside than Maeda.

[Squirrel]

 

I think Graterol lost a bit of shine in this whole ordeal, which is unfortunate for MN moving forward as they need to add pitching. I also don't think Boston is guilty of doing anything that we wouldn't want the Twins to do in this same scenario.

 

The Sox almost certainly viewed Graterol as a starter. They obviously were aware of the shoulder issue last season, the prior TJ surgery, and his move to the pen this season, but once they dug into the medicals some red flag(s) must've shown up. Betts was moving regardless, so the notion that Boston got cold feet based on the return doesn't hold much weight. I'd also take anything Scott Boras says with a massive grain of salt. Boston wanted more after concluding that the starting pitching prospect they thought they were getting wasn't likely to start, and the Twins weren't interested in throwing in another top talent. MN walked, and I'm fine with that.

 

If the roles were reversed, we'd be singing the praises of Falvey for not committing to a deal he wasn't comfortable with and/or attempting to extract more after his medical team determined the initial projection was lofty. It sucks that MN is left holding the bag in terms of rehabbing Graterol's luster, but I'm not sure I can fault the Sox for their part. Deals fall apart, or are amended, it happens. 

I don't disagree with this completely. But I do think their ask after concluding what many already had, that his chances as a starter are likely limited, was over the top. Graterol was 'damaged goods' to them, yet they still wanted him; PLUS another top 10 prospect? That was too much for Maeda, imo. They seemed unwilling to negotiate for anything comparable and wanted more at this point. That's where it was good MN said no.

[drivlikejehu]

 

The Sox almost certainly viewed Graterol as a starter. They obviously were aware of the shoulder issue last season, the prior TJ surgery, and his move to the pen this season, but once they dug into the medicals some red flag(s) must've shown up.

 

Sorry, but this makes zero sense. No MLB team should EVER project a velocity-dependent pitcher with a TJ history, shoulder injury last year, and limited innings as a starting pitcher. Maybe it *could* happen in some cases, but no rational club would ever expect it. This doesn't add up at all.

[Brock Beauchamp]

From MLBTR:

 

“MLB Network’s Jon Heyman suggests that the Twins have expressed a willingness to one of their top-20 prospects to push the deal across the goal line, but even that hasn’t met the Red Sox’ heightened asking price.”

 

Seriously?!?!?!?!

 

Bloom can go **** himself if that’s true.

[howieramone2]

They have used Graterol+Larnach+many others for months to get pitchers with higher upside.

[twinsnorth49]

And people wonder why most of us normal people hate the ****ing Red Sox. Entitled, self righteous twats.

 

Bloom can pound sand, what a complete tool.