Front Page: Have the Twins Been Getting Beaten by Cheaters?

[Otto von Ballpark]

I suspect Logan Morrison may not exactly be reliable source here, but...

 

If the Astros sign stealing pre-dated 2017, then Jason Castro would have known about it when he came over here. (Maybe even Grossman, if it really dated back to 2014.) (Note that Cora and Beltran did not join the Astros until 2017, so this is one of the iffier parts of Morrison's claims.)

 

For the post-2017 stealing, Marwin Gonzalez would have known about it when he came over to the Twins last winter too.

 

And I wouldn't be so quick to assume that all the Twins are "clean" either. It may not have been as wide as the Astros did it, but if the practice was common enough around the league as Logan Morrison says, it's certainly possible that individual Twins sought it out too.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

By the way, it still astounds me that knowing what pitch is coming is that much of an advantage for a hitter.

Timing...  and probably to some extent enough scouting knowledge to know the direction of movement and adjust accordingly.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Any mention of Marwin Gonzalez in the report? Marwin was among the Astros batters who knocked Darvish out of the second inning in both games 3 and 7 of the 2017 World Series, despite a largely ineffective postseason at the plate otherwise.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

You can cheat, get caught, and then keep your title? What? Like the 1997 Final Four Gophers, they should have their post-season appearances and any titles eliminated and struck from the record.

 

The 2017 Championship Astros banners (and possibly the 2018 Red Sox banners) should be taken down from the stadium and the titles should be vacated.

Personally, I’ve always hated that sort of penalty. That’s really a dig at the fans, in my opinion, who don’t deserve it.

[scottz]

Small sample size, but 2017:

 

Home vs HOU 0-3

Away vs HOU 1-2

 

I'm going to say that it sucks and it's good the Astros are being punished, but unless the Astros have cameras in opponents' ballparks, they might just have been, you know, good.

 

Houston's 2017 splits:

Home 48W 33L .593
Road 53W 28L .654

[dex8425]

 

Maybe the Twins are figuring out how to cheat more effectively than any other MN team. By having Rosario hitting 4th, swinging at everything, no one would assume the Twins are relaying signs to hitters. That is where Houston went wrong, you need to have at least one free swinger in the lineup to prevent suspicion.

Altuve is most definitely a free swinger though:)

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

While agreeing with all of the above, I also can’t help thinking that if pitchers weren’t taking so much time to deliver the pitch, this type of cheating would be minimal. I don’t know, let’s see what turns up.

 

Knowing what pitch is coming is huge, but I doubt batters would have much time to look away from the pitcher, decode the signal, and then bring their eyes back to the pitcher’s delivery slot before the pitch comes. And that’s the last step in the process. Illegal sign stealing like this... I think it would work only under the right conditions.

[Don Walcott]

The penalties are harsh, and possibly a good deterrent. However, as long as we allow technology in the dugouts when the game starts, there will be people who will find ways to push the envelope, and occasionally cross the line. The rules against using technology to steal signs have been in place for 20 years, with periodic reinforcement of the rules since. And teams were still stealing signs with technology.

 

In a discussion on MLB last night, Verducci, Costas and Rosenthal all advocated no technology in the dugout at all once the game starts. I think this is a good idea, if we're serious about eliminating this type of cheating.

[twinkiesfan11]

50 game ban for every player who served more than 120 games on the major league roster of the 2017, 2018 and 2019 Astros. It would turn them into a AAA team long enough to eliminate them from playoff contention and there would be no 1st or 2nd round picks to show for the lost season. This would have been fair in my opinion and can guarantee no team would risk this type of cheating again.

[Nick Nelson]

 

Morrison's stuff kind of just sounds like office rumors, which tend to originate from wish-fulfillment, jealousy and excuses. 

To your point, it is striking to me that Morrison — who has pretty much always played for smaller-market underdog types — named all big-market heavy hitters in his accusations.

You can bet that he'll be contacted by MLB investigators in efforts to substantiate his claims though. Who knows what kind of evidence or references he might be able tp provide.

 

BTW, love the photo, Nick.

 

Maybe those 2017 rings should be "taken back".

LOL. I didn't even notice what his shirt said when I selected that but, yeah, takes on an all-new meaning doesn't it?

[Old Twins Cap]

Yankees don't need to cheat at Yankee stadium.

 

For years and years, they have had the home plate umpire -- what else do you need?

[theBOMisthebomb]

Strip the Astros of their 2017 World Series title. Today. Do it now.

[jgfellows]

I guess I’m not sure how the twins were cheated out of anything. They won their division with 101 wins. Now if it came out that the Yankees cheated, then I’d be upset. In the overarching baseball world, the Astros shouldn’t be recognized as champions of anything. And if they find the same thing in Boston, same deal.

[Darius]

Not a good look for the MLB. Especially when it’s clear that there are numerous clubs getting away with it.

 

It’s just another reason why the sport is becoming unwatchable. The lack of parity already alienates fans of small-mid market teams enough. Now, when knowing that these large markets are cheating on top of the gross payroll inequity...it’s just another coffin nail for many would be fans. Just look at Twins v Yankees in the playoffs for the past 20 years. Let’s be honest, nobody really wants to watch that garbage.

 

Way to keep shooting yourself in the foot, Major League Baseball. What a ridiculous dog and pony show this sport has become. An total and absolute joke. It’s like they are deliberately trying to run the sport into the ground.

[SwainZag]

 

By the way, it still astounds me that knowing what pitch is coming is that much of an advantage for a hitter.

 

How?  When facing a guy with a great off-speed pitch it gives such advantage, especially in a 0-2 or 1-2 count to know what's coming.  You aren't guessing anymore.  If you know it's a fastball, you can sit back and take a good cut at it.  If you know it's off speed you can adjust, especially if it's a hanger.  This is why when a pitcher is tipping his pitches he tends to get lit up.  Now imagine you don't even have to look for that, the info is just given to you.  

[Darius]

I guess I’m not sure how the twins were cheated out of anything. They won their division with 101 wins. Now if it came out that the Yankees cheated, then I’d be upset. In the overarching baseball world, the Astros shouldn’t be recognized as champions of anything. And if they find the same thing in Boston, same deal.

Well, when you lose 20 playoff games in a row (which is impossible in baseball) to a team that has been implicated in this mess by former players (the Yankees), I think it’s clear how the Twins were “cheated out of something.”

 

Also, the Yankees beat the Twins for home field last year by 2 games, including losing a series at home to the Yankees. You don’t think illegally using video analytics to steal signs for the entire season could’ve changed that outcome?

 

It’s not bad enough to have the umps calling doubles 3 feet inside of the line foul....you also have to beat the most potent offense in the game when they know what pitch is coming.

 

I’m not sure how it would work, but I’m pissed if I’m a pitcher like Berrios or Odorizzi. I’m going to players association and elsewhere to see if there is any sort of grievance I can file against the alleged teams or MLB. These guys just negotiated contracts. Playoff victory’s vs playoff losses to the Yankees on their record could cause a difference of millions.

[SwainZag]

 

Strip the Astros of their 2017 World Series title. Today. Do it now.

 

What does stripping them of the title do?  Absolutely nothing.  It takes down a banner?  It puts a "vacated" in the record books?  Everyone knows who won, they watched the games.  The players played in the games.  It's just semantics at that point.  I hate how the NCAA vacates titles.  I feel it's much more a punishment for the fan base than it is to the players of the franchise themselves personally.

[nicksaviking]

 

Small sample size, but 2017:

 

Home vs HOU 0-3

Away vs HOU 1-2

 

I'm going to say that it sucks and it's good the Astros are being punished, but unless the Astros have cameras in opponents' ballparks, they might just have been, you know, good.

 

Houston's 2017 splits:

Home 48W 33L .593
Road 53W 28L .654

 

Also in 2017:

 

Home OPS: .812

Road OPS: .834

 

I have no doubt they were cheating, and I'm not against any or all possible penalties for them, but I don't know that we can draw any definitive conclusions as to what degree the cheating helped.

 

Which if the cheating didn't actually help, getting busted for it and penalized for it makes me smile even more.

[Blake]

 

How?  When facing a guy with a great off-speed pitch it gives such advantage, especially in a 0-2 or 1-2 count to know what's coming.  You aren't guessing anymore.  If you know it's a fastball, you can sit back and take a good cut at it.  If you know it's off speed you can adjust, especially if it's a hanger.  This is why when a pitcher is tipping his pitches he tends to get lit up.  Now imagine you don't even have to look for that, the info is just given to you.  

I'm looking at it from the vantage point of someone like myself. I find it incredible someone can even get around on a 95mph fastball to begin with.

[Darius]

What does stripping them of the title do? Absolutely nothing. It takes down a banner? It puts a "vacated" in the record books? Everyone knows who won, they watched the games. The players played in the games. It's just semantics at that point. I hate how the NCAA vacates titles. I feel it's much more a punishment for the fan base than it is to the players of the franchise themselves personally.

Well, I have an idea. Don’t cheat if you don’t want your fans pissed at you for vacating a title.

 

There should be more to it on top of vacated team accolades. Verlanders Cy Young should go. Altuve’s MVP should go. The stats players accumulated during those seasons should go. You get no HOF points for those seasons, like roiders. Players don’t like it? Who cares, you knew. And, if you didn’t, go take it up with your teammates/coaches who did. While you’re at it, cry me a river. If I’m complicit in a murder, I don’t get a pass just because it’s inconvenient for me.

 

There should be forfeited draft picks. There should also be some sort of monetary compensation that gets allocated out to opponents based on number of games played against the Astros. Who knows how much revenue was potentially lost elsewhere.

 

You’re right, vacating a title is a slap on the wrist. It should be worse than that. But, at the end of the day, what’s the point if you’re not officially vacating titles/awards? It just won’t deter teams like the Yankees and Red Sox who will gladly pay monetary penalties, etc, if it means winning a title. It’s not going to hurt a team fanbase-wise (see Houston’s Twitter). There’s literally no downside to “cheating” if you don’t actually punish somebody. You want to see a useless “punishment?” Suspending the manager for a year.

[Nebraska Nick]

Definitely think the punishment should have been more.  Seems like by letting them keep their title and rings, is almost like, a thief robbing a bank, stealing $3 million, getting caught, going to jail for a bit, but still gets to keep the money he stole forever.  Does the time, but keeps the royalties to use for when he goes free.

[SwainZag]

 

Also in 2017:

 

Home OPS: .812

Road OPS: .834

 

I have no doubt they were cheating, and I'm not against any or all possible penalties for them, but I don't know that we can draw any definitive conclusions as to what degree the cheating helped.

 

Which if the cheating didn't actually help, getting busted for it and penalized for it makes me smile even more.

 

The X factor here is the 2017 Astros team was REALLY good to begin with.  It's not like they were an average talented team who needed cheating to win.

 

Postseason stats in 2017:

 

Alex Bregman: Road – .154 BA, .508 OPS; Home – .273 BA, .857 OPS.
Carlos Correa: Road – .211 BA, .626 OPS; Home – .371 BA, 1.164 OPS.
Jose Altuve: Road – .143 BA, .497 OPS; Home – .472 BA, 1.541 OPS.
Brian McCann: Road – .037 BA, .198 OPS; Home – .300 BA, .849 OPS.
Evan Gattis: Road – .200 BA, .533 OPS; Home – .300 BA, 1.014 OPS.

 

[Squirrel]

 

While agreeing with all of the above, I also can’t help thinking that if pitchers weren’t taking so much time to deliver the pitch, this type of cheating would be minimal. I don’t know, let’s see what turns up.

Knowing what pitch is coming is huge, but I doubt batters would have much time to look away from the pitcher, decode the signal, and then bring their eyes back to the pitcher’s delivery slot before the pitch comes. And that’s the last step in the process. Illegal sign stealing like this... I think it would work only under the right conditions.

 

You know ... I think a LOT of batters take way too much, time ... in and out of that batter's box. 

[Darius]

The X factor here is the 2017 Astros team was REALLY good to begin with. It's not like they were an average talented team who needed cheating to win.

 

Postseason stats in 2017:

 

Alex Bregman: Road – .154 BA, .508 OPS; Home – .273 BA, .857 OPS.

Carlos Correa: Road – .211 BA, .626 OPS; Home – .371 BA, 1.164 OPS.

Jose Altuve: Road – .143 BA, .497 OPS; Home – .472 BA, 1.541 OPS.

Brian McCann: Road – .037 BA, .198 OPS; Home – .300 BA, .849 OPS.

Evan Gattis: Road – .200 BA, .533 OPS; Home – .300 BA, 1.014 OPS.

Doesn’t matter. We can’t definitely say roids helped guys like Bonds, either. Bottom line, they cheated. If it didn’t help them enough, then they’re just dumb for doing it.

[bighat]

 

Should the Twins have to void any games won in 2019 in which Pineda appeared?

 

Apples and oranges, man.

[Mr. Brooks]

While agreeing with all of the above, I also can’t help thinking that if pitchers weren’t taking so much time to deliver the pitch, this type of cheating would be minimal. I don’t know, let’s see what turns up.

 

Knowing what pitch is coming is huge, but I doubt batters would have much time to look away from the pitcher, decode the signal, and then bring their eyes back to the pitcher’s delivery slot before the pitch comes. And that’s the last step in the process. Illegal sign stealing like this... I think it would work only under the right conditions.

The batters didn't need to look away.

They were using sounds (specifically banging on trash cans) to indicate the pitch to the hitter from the dugout.

[bighat]

 

50 game ban for every player who served more than 120 games on the major league roster of the 2017, 2018 and 2019 Astros. It would turn them into a AAA team long enough to eliminate them from playoff contention and there would be no 1st or 2nd round picks to show for the lost season. This would have been fair in my opinion and can guarantee no team would risk this type of cheating again.

Say goodbye to Marwin for 1/3 of the season, then....eeeks.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Doesn’t matter. We can’t definitely say roids helped guys like Bonds, either. Bottom line, they cheated. If it didn’t help them enough, then they’re just dumb for doing it.

 

You're not wrong about this... whether it helped or not, they did it. I'm not quite sure what the right answer is... The reason MLB didn't punish players is that level of culpability was not able to be determined... If Marwin, for example, verbally voiced his concern to coaches... how do you punish him? If he did it in writing, that's something else if by chance someone still has the email (and data retention polices are often in place to prevent those exact type of issues). That's why it gets so sticky...

 

I don't have a problem though, after reading your posts, agreeing that this was probably a bit too light. Not sure I'd call it a lifetime ban like Rose since to be fair that penalty wasn't in place in advance like it was for Rose, but I can definitely see where it should be harsher. Beltran in particular should get punished, and he's going to get off scott free.

[SwainZag]

 

You're not wrong about this... whether it helped or not, they did it. I'm not quite sure what the right answer is... The reason MLB didn't punish players is that level of culpability was not able to be determined... If Marwin, for example, verbally voiced his concern to coaches... how do you punish him? If he did it in writing, that's something else if by chance someone still has the email (and data retention polices are often in place to prevent those exact type of issues). That's why it gets so sticky...

 

I don't have a problem though, after reading your posts, agreeing that this was probably a bit too light. Not sure I'd call it a lifetime ban like Rose since to be fair that penalty wasn't in place in advance like it was for Rose, but I can definitely see where it should be harsher. Beltran in particular should get punished, and he's going to get off scott free.

 

IMO how do you punish players without hard evidence of who it helped and who it didn't?  You cannot just suspend everyone, that turns into a witch hunt.  You can go by word of mouth of who said what, but that's a pretty slippery slope when it comes to punishment, especially as harsh punishment as some people in here are suggesting.

 

Are you going to suspend everyone who put on a jersey because they didn't report it and immediate put their own career and future in jeopardy?  It's easy to yell right now at the players from the sidelines.  

 

In the end the commish works for the owners.  He gave the biggest monetary fee allowed by the constitution and threw down a pretty big penalty for the first ever punishment of this kind.  While I agree, it's kinda sad to see the player's get off scott free.....I really don't know what would be appropriate, or what you could possibly do.

[tony&rodney]

The best explanation for anyone interested to know about what effect this cheating has is a video by Matt Antonelli on page 3 of the post concerning the Astros.

In short (if you won't watch it), there isn't anything in baseball that results in a better advantage for a hitter than knowing what pitch is coming. 

Please don't insert steroids as a similar advantage. We all know someone who has taken steroids and can't hit a softball. Yes, steroids are huge for recovery of injuries.

Yes, steroids must be eradicated from baseball, but they do not belong in the same conversation. Also, betting? C'mon, there is definitive proof and knowledge by hundreds of former players, as well as the league, concerning Pete Rose. 

The Twins most likely were affected by teams using technology against them. To collect and prove that assertion becomes necessary for any penalty to be levied, however. Several times in the last couple of year, while watching the Twins, I have commented out loud about a catcher going through complex signs when the bases were empty. Until such time as firm evidence is presented, we will have to accept that the Yankees just were really good at laying off tough pitches and guessing.