Front Page: Let’s Wait to Declare the Offseason a Failure for the Minnesota Twins

[Oxtung]

 

As the one who added “and Romo and Clippard” to tarheeltwinsfan’s post, I’ll take a shot.

 

To me it’s the cumulative effect of adding four veteran starters and two veteran relievers — all of whom I think have good likelihoods of being anywhere from above-average to well-above average — to a Nov. 1 roster that had only Berrios, four or so guys with something like a dozen combined career starts, and a solid, but still fairly inexperienced bullpen. The roster on Jan. 10 looks a heck of a lot better to me than the one on Nov. 1.

 

Another way I would phrase that is that I’ve tried to view it as adding “impact pitchING,” whereas it’s felt like many have focused on adding an “impact pitchER.” I would rather the possibility of an eventual rotation of Berrios-Odo-Pineda-Bailey-Hill, with Dobnak-Smeltzer-Thorpe-Graterol as my 6-9, than have a rotation of Cole-Berrios-Dobnak-Smeltzer-Thorpe, with Graterol and I’m not sure who else as my 6-9.

 

 

 

Now, that said, I think they can still do more, and I’d love to see them do that. That’s why I also posted that I don’t think it’s fair to evaluate the entire offseason on Jan. 10.

 

So for example, I’ve thought about starting a post noting that minor league signings seem to be starting. Some guys who may have thought they were going to get a major league deal are still out there. I can think of Alex Wood, Drew Smyly, Felix Hernandez, Clay Buchholz, Danny Salazar, and Taijuan Walker. I haven’t taken the time to evaluate them closely, but I’m assuming the front office has. If they do their homework and can pull off signing the best one or two of them to a minor league contract with incentive-based bonuses, I could support that. Even if one of those guys only pulls a Martin Perez and is top-notch for eight starts (i.e. until Pineda returns), that would be a bonus. And with the return of Pineda and the presence of Dobnak-Smeltzer-Thorpe-Graterol, I’d like to think that the front office would be much more likely to pull the plug if one or more of the latter guys is lights-out in Rochester and said minor-league-contract-guy turns into August/September Perez.

 

Similarly, with only Berrios, Odo, Bailey as vets on opening day, I’d also love to see them pull off a smart trade. Folks perceive that we don’t trade any prospects, but I keep pointing back to the February trade of a Single-A shortstop for Odo as one of their biggest wins so far. With their penchant for value, that’s the type of trade I think we’re most likely to see — what another team views as a lottery pick for an under-the-radar guy that our front offices perceives as under-valued. 

 

Probably more than you asked for, Oxtung, but that’s where I’m coming from. 

Appreciate the response. If the Twins sign Donaldson their payroll would be ~$140MM this year, which they seem willing to take on. If the Twins signed, Cole, Odorizzi, Pineda, Hill and Romo it would be ~$140MM too. I don't want to restart the "They should have signed one of the top 5 pitchers" argument again, rather my point is if the Twins wanted to they had the money to sign anybody this offseason and still fill out the rotation to add the absolutely necessary depth you point out. 

 

I think my problem with your definition is two-fold. First, I am not as optimistic as you that Odorizzi, Pineda and Bailey will be above average pitchers. I would guess one will be above average, one will be averageish and one will be below average.  Second, given the state of the rest of the Twins, impact pitching to me means "matches up well against other starting pitchers in game 1 of a playoff series" which none of these signings do, IMO. 

 

Playoff teams best starting pitchers in 2019:

Strasburg/Scherzer

Cole/Verlander

Buehler/Kershaw/Ryu

Flaherty

Severino

Woodruff

Morton/Glasnow

Kuechel

Manaea

 

I look at that list and to me Berrios and/or Odorrizzi match up with Kuechel and Manaea. Everyone else is at least 1 step better. Some are 2 complete steps better. That's why I viewed "Impact Pitching" as one of those top guys.

[Oxtung]

 

I may be the only one to think this way, but since after the 2019 season ended the Twins only had Berrios as an experienced major league starter, it was necessary to sign at least 3-4 more experienced major league starters, otherwise the Twins would be in deep trouble. Had the Twins only signed one impact pitcher, Cole for example, that would be great...(similiar to Spahn and Sain and pray for rain) but that  great new pitcher would only give the Twins about 20 wins at most. That would be 10-12 more games won than an average major league starter, assuming 8-10 victories for an average starter on a team which should score lots of runs.. But what about the other 3 open starting pitcher spots which needed to be filled? Do the Twins use 3 AAAA pitchers here? I think that would have been a mistake. What the Twins did sign was 2 very good, familiar, experienced starters (admittedly not Cole), in Odo and Pineda (even though he will miss 39 games) plus an average ML pitcher in Bailey (who should eat innings and was throwing well for parts of 2019 and who has been a Yankee killer in the past, plus a very good pitcher with playoff experience, who had had surgery and who won't be ready until June (I think I read that), but who is not a flame thrower anyway...so maybe he can bounce back more quickly and successfully than a flame thrower who had had the same surgery.  Finally do you think Wes Johnson would have much positive effect on Cole? Maybe, but how much better could Cole become?  Do you think Wes Johnson can help Bailey improve what is already an average ML pitching career...I hope so. What about Rich Hill? Not sure, but if Hill is healthy, he can be really good, plus a lefty to boot. With Pineda and Hill  starting their seasons late, they should be fresher for October. These are my reasons why I felt that the Twins had signed "impact pitching", which I believe can be interpreted as plural. We must remember, the FO has a budget. Remember that the FO had to sign impact pitching and also to try to extend the core players (as they did today with Sano and hopefully will do with Berrios), plus arbitration increases for many others. Well, I'm exhausted from trying to explain all oft his as best I could. Thanks for asking, Oxtung.

You seem to be saying that filling 4/5 spots in a rotation is hard and we don't want to hand the young guys the spots because then we'd have no depth, which I agree with. However, this is Falvey/Levine's fourth offseason with the Twins so isn't this their doing? They chose not to acquire pitchers previously when there were opportunities and that has directly led to the dilemma they found themselves in this offseason. Personally, I don't think they deserve credit for "setting a floor" when they could have done this in previous years letting them shoot for the ceiling this offseason. 

 

Also, there was enough payroll space to sign Cole, Odorizzi, Pineda, Hill and Romo. If they chose to go with Cole, Berrios and young guys, that would have been on them. 

[tvagle]

I see the roster looking like this after Arb Signings

 

 

Is there room for JD? Yes, if $146M is within the Budget

 

Are the Twins in a better position than last year? To me it feels like treading water

 

S1 - Berrios - Berrios

S2 -Odorizzi - Odorizzi

S3 -Gibson - Bailey

S4 -Pineda - Pineda

S5 -Perez - Dobnik

 

BP - Rogers - Rogers

BP - Duffey - Duffey

BP - May - May

BP - Romo - Romo

BP - Smeltzer - Smeltzer

BP - Stashak - Clippard

BP - Littell - Littell

BP - 26th Man - Wisler

 

C - Garver - Garver

1B - Cron - Gonzales

2B - Schoop - Arraez

3B - Sano - Sano

SS - Polanco - Polanco

LF - Rosario - Rosario

CF - Buxton - Buxton

RF - Kepler - Kepler

DH - Cruz - Cruz

BENCH - Castro - Avila

BENCH - Adrianza - Adrianza

BENCH - Cave - Cave

BENCH - Wade - Wade

 

Sure looks the same...with a fair amount of the same amount of unknowns

 

This fan expected a little more than the same

[IndianaTwin]

 

Appreciate the response. If the Twins sign Donaldson their payroll would be ~$140MM this year, which they seem willing to take on. If the Twins signed, Cole, Odorizzi, Pineda, Hill and Romo it would be ~$140MM too. I don't want to restart the "They should have signed one of the top 5 pitchers" argument again, rather my point is if the Twins wanted to they had the money to sign anybody this offseason and still fill out the rotation to add the absolutely necessary depth you point out. 

 

I think my problem with your definition is two-fold. First, I am not as optimistic as you that Odorizzi, Pineda and Bailey will be above average pitchers. I would guess one will be above average, one will be averageish and one will be below average.  Second, given the state of the rest of the Twins, impact pitching to me means "matches up well against other starting pitchers in game 1 of a playoff series" which none of these signings do, IMO. 

 

Playoff teams best starting pitchers in 2019:

Strasburg/Scherzer

Cole/Verlander

Buehler/Kershaw/Ryu

Flaherty

Severino

Woodruff

Morton/Glasnow

Kuechel

Manaea

 

I look at that list and to me Berrios and/or Odorrizzi match up with Kuechel and Manaea. Everyone else is at least 1 step better. Some are 2 complete steps better. That's why I viewed "Impact Pitching" as one of those top guys.

 

And thanks to you as well, both for your original questions and for this response. At the risk of being insensitive, my dad was fond of saying that there’s more than one way to (conduct feline taxidermy). While I think my solution is better than your solution (or I wouldn’t have typed it!), the reality is that either approach has the potential to succeed. That’s why they play the games, right? Part of my response to you on the Cole preference is that I prefer to spread the risk, and I really don’t like the thought of an eight or nine-year commitment to a pitcher. 

 

To your first one, I’m guilty as charged as being high on Odorizzi and Pineda (more so than on Bailey, but I’m reasonably bullish on him as well). If there’s one “I told y’all so” I could claim from the last several years, it would be the decision to give Pineda the two-year deal while still rehabbing from TJS. I was really on board with that one from the beginning.

 

So in being high on those guys, I’d nudge our guys up your second list. For example, I’d take Berrios over Woodruff and might even put Odo and Pineda on his level. I honestly don’t know Hill that well, but some people on these threads are certainly high on him. Or as another example, Verlander is a Hall of Famer and still pitching like one, but the dude turns 37 next month. It doesn’t seem like it’s going to ever happen, but he’s got to come back to the pack sometime, doesn’t he? And as one of my fantasy keepers, I hope Kershaw gives me another Kershaw-like HOF season, but Berrios and Odo both had better fWARs last year and he’s got a lot of innings on his arm. By contrast, Berrios is entering his age 26 season. It’s not an impossibility that he takes another step forward and enters the Cy Young conversation, in his career year if not making it an annual thing. That to say, it’s not unrealistic to think that he could at least narrow the gap versus a Verlander.

 

And my penchant toward spreading the risk lends itself to a valuing of depth. I honestly don’t know Hill’s pedigree that well, but some folks on TD are high enough on him to say that when he’s healthy he can be a stud. But while strength at the top is a sign of “impact pitching,” I think of strength at the bottom as another sign. Fangraphs ranked Berrios as No. 17 among guys with 100+ innings, so I think of that as basically being an average No. 1. But it had Odo at No. 20, which I think of as a slightly below average No. 1. He was an all-star, after all. And many of us were noting that Pineda was our best pitcher for an extended period as well. And if Hill is essentially right there as well, that’s the potential big-time depth.

 

I don’t like the whole “this guy’s a No. 1, but this guy’s a No. 3,” because it’s so subjective based on what each of our perceptions of what a No. 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 is. But for the purpose of this I’ll say that while we may not have one of the few No. 1+ Garrett Cole-type aces, a playoff rotation of some combination of Berrios, Odo, Hill, and Pineda could give us something like a 1, 1-, 2+, 2. Without looking at the current depth charts, it’s hard to think of many teams that could roll out the someone that matches the weakest of that quartet in Game 4, which counts as much as Game 1. And that doesn’t even include Bailey. As noted above, I’m not as high on him as on Bailey, but he actually had a better fWAR than Pineda. Best case scenario, that gives us five guys that pitch like No. 2s or better! To me, that’s also impact.

 

Great discussion, Oxtung, but I really have to hit the sack. But it was a crappy week of work, and it’s a whole lot more fun to be part of the great community. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

As the one who added “and Romo and Clippard” to tarheeltwinsfan’s post, I’ll take a shot.

 

To me it’s the cumulative effect of adding four veteran starters and two veteran relievers — all of whom I think have good likelihoods of being anywhere from above-average to well-above average — to a Nov. 1 roster that had only Berrios, four or so guys with something like a dozen combined career starts, and a solid, but still fairly inexperienced bullpen. The roster on Jan. 10 looks a heck of a lot better to me than the one on Nov. 1.

 

Why is Nov. 1 the date of comparison? Virtually every team in baseball is "improved" now compared to Nov. 1, so it doesn't seem like a particularly meaningful distinction.

[The Wise One]

 

Escobar refused an extension? Where is the proof of that? Tori Hunter stated on a broadcast that Escobar wanted to stay with the Twins.

http://www.startribune.com/twins-dozier-lynn-and-duke-on-trading-block-as-deadline-nears/489458211/

 

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Sorry to disappoint...at least it's only a game (Insert smiley face here). Maybe I got a bit carried away with the wording and the logic didn't end up make sense. What might have been better to say is that every thing is very uncertain at this point and I find it hard to understand how angry the fan base has seemed to be. I'm really happy with what Falvey and co. have done with the organization and I'm happy to give them the benefit of the doubt until I see reason not to. We've seen how things have worked out with the top free agents and I don't think Minnesota had a chance of signing any of them aside form maybe Ryu, so with all things considered I think they've done well and may not be finished yet.

 

I find it extremely hard to understand how there are people that are NOT angry?

 

Honestly. Were some of you not around during the 2000's? This team had a core that consisted of a Cy Young Winner, Batting champion, and MVP all in the same season. This same season they employed a journeyman utility player at DH. The "big trade" they made to put this team over the top? DFA fodder for PTBNL types. 

 

This is the same path I see this new front office going down as it pertains to player acquisitions. I've said it before, these guys are not much different than Terry Ryan when it comes to that. 

 

THAT is what is frustrating to those of us with the different opinion than ya'll. 

[Battle ur tail off]

 

As the one who added “and Romo and Clippard” to tarheeltwinsfan’s post, I’ll take a shot.

 

To me it’s the cumulative effect of adding four veteran starters and two veteran relievers — all of whom I think have good likelihoods of being anywhere from above-average to well-above average — to a Nov. 1 roster that had only Berrios, four or so guys with something like a dozen combined career starts, and a solid, but still fairly inexperienced bullpen. The roster on Jan. 10 looks a heck of a lot better to me than the one on Nov. 1.

 

 

And to some of us, this looks like pitchforking through a garbage bin and picking out a few half eaten apples that look like they "might" be decent yet. 

What is the average age of those guys you named off? Romo, Clippard, Hill, Bailey. All are OLD. And all are at best average to below average players right now. How is that "impacting" anything. 

 

I may be the only one to think this way, but since after the 2019 season ended the Twins only had Berrios as an experienced major league starter, it was necessary to sign at least 3-4 more experienced major league starters, otherwise the Twins would be in deep trouble. Had the Twins only signed one impact pitcher, Cole for example, that would be great...(similiar to Spahn and Sain and pray for rain) but that  great new pitcher would only give the Twins about 20 wins at most. That would be 10-12 more games won than an average major league starter, assuming 8-10 victories for an average starter on a team which should score lots of runs.. But what about the other 3 open starting pitcher spots which needed to be filled? Do the Twins use 3 AAAA pitchers here? I think that would have been a mistake. What the Twins did sign was 2 very good, familiar, experienced starters (admittedly not Cole), in Odo and Pineda (even though he will miss 39 games) plus an average ML pitcher in Bailey (who should eat innings and was throwing well for parts of 2019 and who has been a Yankee killer in the past, plus a very good pitcher with playoff experience, who had had surgery and who won't be ready until June (I think I read that), but who is not a flame thrower anyway...so maybe he can bounce back more quickly and successfully than a flame thrower who had had the same surgery.  Finally do you think Wes Johnson would have much positive effect on Cole? Maybe, but how much better could Cole become?  Do you think Wes Johnson can help Bailey improve what is already an average ML pitching career...I hope so. What about Rich Hill? Not sure, but if Hill is healthy, he can be really good, plus a lefty to boot. With Pineda and Hill  starting their seasons late, they should be fresher for October. These are my reasons why I felt that the Twins had signed "impact pitching", which I believe can be interpreted as plural. We must remember, the FO has a budget. Remember that the FO had to sign impact pitching and also to try to extend the core players (as they did today with Sano and hopefully will do with Berrios), plus arbitration increases for many others. Well, I'm exhausted from trying to explain all oft his as best I could. Thanks for asking, Oxtung.

 

See and the way I see it, is that you HAD to bring back Ordorizi and Pineda, just to get you half the way to where you needed to be. That said, I thought these were both excellent moves. These 2 IMO, are both solid #3-4 starters. Glad they realized what they had there and made darn sure they stayed with the team.

 

Romo, Clippard, Bailey, Hill. I hope like heck these guys can bring it next year, but be honest, there is just as good a chance that NONE of these guys are productive for the Twins this season. 

 

Can they be? Sure. But what is the average age of these guys? We will see, but IMO to count on any of these guys to be better than league average isn't wise. And thus, the "impact" they will bring doesn't excite alot of us. 

[terrydactyls]

Can't we all just get along??    

 

(I hope the smiley faces show up so everyone knows I'm injecting levity.)

 

I agree that the offseason has not been a failure but from a different point of view.  If the front office had somehow arranged for:

 

• Wheeler's family to be from Minnesota instead of the Philadelphia area,
• Bumgarner to have always had his horses in Minnesota instead of Arizona,
• A large Asian population in the Twin Cities for Ryu, and
• A couple hundred million extra dollars above what they actually had available for Cole,

and they still didn't sign any of these four pitchers, then I would consider the offseason a failure of the front office.  I found the offseason to be very disappointing because no additional starting pitching was added.  I do believe that the front office tried their best but were faced with obstacles that money wasn't going to overcome.  But disappointing is far removed from failure.

 

Now you may begin piling on me for disagreeing......

 

[ewen21]

 

If Falvey and Levine had not earlier acknowledged that the club needed (and deserved) impact pitching this off-season...that would have made them disingenuous...or stupid.

 

That fact that they did acknowledge it, but didn't execute it...means that they failed. Might work out fine in the long run. Anything might. But they failed. (At least so far.)

 

IMO, any argument that the Twins have not failed this off-season begins and ends with "what have they done to close the gap between themselves and the top of the AL". And a compelling argument for same does NOT include "odd that so much resentment has come the way of the Twins front office after winning over 100 games in 2019".

 

What did the 101 wins in the 2019 AL central get you, again?

Lot's of people are calling this offsesason a failure without any trouble.  I find it somewhat troubling that as many people havent labeled last season a failure after that 3-and-out.  Seems rather inconsistent from the fans. I am not saying you or anyone in particular are a person who called last season a "success" and this offseason a "failure" ..

 

I have a problem with those who are doing that.

 

[howieramone2]

What do the days of yore have to do with anything? Also a member nitpicked using November 1st. Feel free to use January 5th. That's when MLB.com ranked us 4th in their first power ranking of the year.

[ewen21]

 

And to some of us, this looks like pitchforking through a garbage bin and picking out a few half eaten apples that look like they "might" be decent yet. 

What is the average age of those guys you named off? Romo, Clippard, Hill, Bailey. All are OLD. And all are at best average to below average players right now. How is that "impacting" anything. 

 

 

That would be what Terry Ryan did.  Ramon Ortiz, Sydney Ponson, Jason Marquis.....

 

Granted, Bailey and Hill are not great, but they are a step above what used the be the GARBAGE Ryan would sign.

 

Last winter these GMs did a brilliant job assembling a team that went on to win 101 games without breaking the bank.  The players were the ones that screwed it up in the end.  I think the anger directed at the GMs is a little misplaced.

 

I think guys like Buxton and Kepler should be scrutinized as well for being AWOL the last two months.  Lots of praise gets showered on both and yet they were nowhere to be found September and October

[IndianaTwin]

 

Why is Nov. 1 the date of comparison? Virtually every team in baseball is "improved" now compared to Nov. 1, so it doesn't seem like a particularly meaningful distinction.

 

True, but very few, if any, other teams had only one starter under contract at that time (or even just two, given that we could have picked up Perez’s option). In that area at least, I’d argue that they had the most to lose of anyone if they didn’t have a good offseason, and I’d argue that as a result, they’ve improved more than anyone in that regard.

 

[ewen21]

 

I find it extremely hard to understand how there are people that are NOT angry?

 

Honestly. Were some of you not around during the 2000's? This team had a core that consisted of a Cy Young Winner, Batting champion, and MVP all in the same season. This same season they employed a journeyman utility player at DH. The "big trade" they made to put this team over the top? DFA fodder for PTBNL types. 

 

. 

 

I don't see it to be like that at all.  First of all, none of the young players we have are comparable to Mauer, Morneau and Santana.  Not even close.  Also, the level of ":dumpster diving" was far more egregious during the Ryan years.  Signing Boone, Cirillo, Nevin when they were DONE.  Signing horrendous free agent starting pitchers.  At no point did he sign guys as talented as Odorizzi or Pineda.  They are not great, but they aren't the cow flop that Ryan troweled out

 

Cron, Gonzalez, Schoop, Cruz contributed 104 home runs and cost us about 39 million dollars.  When did anything resembling that happen during the 2000s?  In the 2000s the best players were the young guys and they had no help.  Last year we a very deep team.  And this myth about the pitching being not good as the reason why we couldn't get out of the first round is trash.  We ranked 9th in ERA last year and the Yankees were 14th.

 

It is not the fault of the GMs we got nowhere in the playoffs.  The Yankees were missing perhaps their best pitcher in Domingo German and we could manage only 7 runs in 3 games.  That isn't going to get fixed overpaying a couple of free agents.  There is a culture problem and I think it starts with Baldelli.  He is the same as a guy like Michael Cuddyer who would sing "Doo Dah Doo DAH" about how the Twins had successful seasons after getting embarrassed in the playoffs.  How is it that gets ignored and we have scores of folks going bonkers about us not signing guys we had virtually no chance of landing (and are grossly overpriced)

 

Makes no sense to me.  None

[IndianaTwin]

 

And to some of us, this looks like pitchforking through a garbage bin and picking out a few half eaten apples that look like they "might" be decent yet. 

What is the average age of those guys you named off? Romo, Clippard, Hill, Bailey. All are OLD. And all are at best average to below average players right now. How is that "impacting" anything. 

 

 

See and the way I see it, is that you HAD to bring back Ordorizi and Pineda, just to get you half the way to where you needed to be. That said, I thought these were both excellent moves. These 2 IMO, are both solid #3-4 starters. Glad they realized what they had there and made darn sure they stayed with the team.

 

Romo, Clippard, Bailey, Hill. I hope like heck these guys can bring it next year, but be honest, there is just as good a chance that NONE of these guys are productive for the Twins this season. 

 

Can they be? Sure. But what is the average age of these guys? We will see, but IMO to count on any of these guys to be better than league average isn't wise. And thus, the "impact" they will bring doesn't excite alot of us. 

 

Well, I think we’re going to need to disagree on our perceptions of these guys. I’ll be VERY surprised if none of these guys are productive this season. At 40, Hill is OLD. But there are a whole lot of guys in the majors who are going to be productive at age 34 (Bailey). Clippard seems old, but he’s the only guy in the majors who has pitched at least 60 innings in relief each of the last 10 years. And nearly all of those have been positive years. I’m glad to take my chances on him doing it again. 

 

And look at it this way. The average age of a major league is right at 28. Given that by definition a free agent needs at least six years of MLB season, it’s very difficult to get a young player as a free agent. At best, you can get an average aged player. 

[Squirrel]

I find it extremely hard to understand how there are people that are NOT angry?

 

Honestly. Were some of you not around during the 2000's? This team had a core that consisted of a Cy Young Winner, Batting champion, and MVP all in the same season. This same season they employed a journeyman utility player at DH. The "big trade" they made to put this team over the top? DFA fodder for PTBNL types.

 

This is the same path I see this new front office going down as it pertains to player acquisitions. I've said it before, these guys are not much different than Terry Ryan when it comes to that.

 

THAT is what is frustrating to those of us with the different opinion than ya'll.

 

Angry? No, I’m not angry. A little disappointed and frustrated, but, for me, it’s just difficult for me to expend that much energy on something I have zero control over, unless I forget, as I do from time to time. But I do have control over what I spend my money on and could choose to limit my spending on games and whatnot. And I keep reciting my mantra in times like this ... ‘It’s only a game, it’s only a game.’ Yeah, I’d prefer it to be a joyful diversion from other aspects of life and death around the world, but, there it is ... it’s not life or death here. That all said, imo, I’ll give it a bit more time, until the season starts, before I hand out my grade, but the FO needs to turn in one heckuva final!

[jorgenswest]

Can't we all just get along??    

 

(I hope the smiley faces show up so everyone knows I'm injecting levity.)

 

I agree that the offseason has not been a failure but from a different point of view.  If the front office had somehow arranged for:

 

 

• Wheeler's family to be from Minnesota instead of the Philadelphia area,
• Bumgarner to have always had his horses in Minnesota instead of Arizona,
• A large Asian population in the Twin Cities for Ryu, and
• A couple hundred million extra dollars above what they actually had available for Cole,

and they still didn't sign any of these four pitchers, then I would consider the offseason a failure of the front office.  I found the offseason to be very disappointing because no additional starting pitching was added.  I do believe that the front office tried their best but were faced with obstacles that money wasn't going to overcome.  But disappointing is far removed from failure.

 

Now you may begin piling on me for disagreeing......

I buy everything here but Ryu. The top 4 had a specific team they targeted. Not Ryu.

 

From the Toronto Sun the day of signing.

 

“Ryu maintains that the strong Korean community in Toronto didn’t influence his decision to come here — money and the promising young team talked loudest.”

 

If the money were the same I think Ryu selects Toronto. Later in the article they wrote about how excited he is about the Korean community in Toronto. It was on the Twins to talk loud on the money.

 

I don’t know about the off season but I think it is fair to say the Twins failed to sign Ryu with an emphasis on fail.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

 

I find it extremely hard to understand how there are people that are NOT angry?

 

Honestly. Were some of you not around during the 2000's? This team had a core that consisted of a Cy Young Winner, Batting champion, and MVP all in the same season. This same season they employed a journeyman utility player at DH. The "big trade" they made to put this team over the top? DFA fodder for PTBNL types. 

 

This is the same path I see this new front office going down as it pertains to player acquisitions. I've said it before, these guys are not much different than Terry Ryan when it comes to that. 

 

THAT is what is frustrating to those of us with the different opinion than ya'll. 

I surely don't have all the right answers, but I do know that the 2019 Twins team won the second most games of any Twins/Washington Senators team in over 120 years plus hit more home runs than any major league team in the history of major league baseball. . To me that's progress.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

 

I surely don't have all the right answers, but I do know that the 2019 Twins team won the second most games of any Twins/Washington Senators team in over 120 years plus hit more home runs than any major league team in the history of major league baseball. . To me that's progress.

 

Let me beat you to the punch, Battle ur Tail Off, and say: "Don't call me Shirley."

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Let me beat you to the punch, Battle ur Tail Off, and say: "Don't call me Shirley."

 

Haha. I don't have all the right answers either. None of us do, this is a message board to give opinions and burn time. 

I agree the Twins team from last year was great. I'd just like to see them supplement it and give it a good run. 

[ewen21]

 

I don’t know about the off season but I think it is fair to say the Twins failed to sign Ryu with an emphasis on fail.

I couldn't disagree with you more.  I have been through this enough times:

• He's pitched more than 90 innings just twice in the last five seasons
• He is overweight AND has a long history of time on the DL
• He will be 33 and it is very likely he could have a sharp decline

I don't know how a guy like this warrants a 4 year deal.  

 

We will see how this plays out, but I think it is an insane signing by Toronto.  Very VERY risky given his injury history, lack of durability and age.

[jorgenswest]

I couldn't disagree with you more.  I have been through this enough times:

 

• He's pitched more than 90 innings just twice in the last five seasons
• He is overweight AND has a long history of time on the DL
• He will be 33 and it is very likely he could have a sharp decline

I don't know how a guy like this warrants a 4 year deal.  

 

We will see how this plays out, but I think it is an insane signing by Toronto.  Very VERY risky given his injury history, lack of durability and age.

The Twins did fail to sign him and they could have signed him. Is that where we disagree?

 

Whether they should have signed him is a different conversation. It was not the lack of Asian community that kept Ryu from signing with the Twins. It was dollars.

 

Your point about his value is well taken and I think we agree but it is irrelevant to whether or not he would have come to Minnesota.

[ewen21]

 

The Twins did fail to sign him and they could have signed him. Is that where we disagree?

Whether they should have signed him is a different conversation. It was not the lack of Asian community that kept Ryu from signing with the Twins. It was dollars.

Your point about his value is well taken and I think we agree but it is irrelevant to whether or not he would have come to Minnesota.

Fine, then they were right not to invest the dollars in him.  I would not go over two yeas with Ryu

 

I will concede my earlier point about the large Korean community having an influence on him.  Scrap that if you want.

[hugelycat]

While everyone has understandably strong feelings about the offseason, I don't think people's positions are really that far apart. I think almost all of us can agree that:

1. The Twins should have a very strong 2020 season.
2. That season could be even better with impact signings and/or trades.

The disagreements come down to whether a person wants to emphasize point 1 or point 2. One of the fun things about Twins Daily is that we can discuss and argue the fine points about things like this, when I would imagine most of us are pretty similar in how we feel. Same thing happens to John and Aaron on Gleeman and the Geek a lot, same opinion but different ways to get there.

[Major League Ready]

 

I buy everything here but Ryu. The top 4 had a specific team they targeted. Not Ryu.

From the Toronto Sun the day of signing.

“Ryu maintains that the strong Korean community in Toronto didn’t influence his decision to come here — money and the promising young team talked loudest.”

If the money were the same I think Ryu selects Toronto. Later in the article they wrote about how excited he is about the Korean community in Toronto. It was on the Twins to talk loud on the money.

I don’t know about the off season but I think it is fair to say the Twins failed to sign Ryu with an emphasis on fail.

 

I think that's a fair take. As a matter of fact, I see almost exactly the same scenario. Where we differ is that while I would have been OK with them signing Ryu but I also have zero problem with them passing on a giving a 33 y/o SP a 4 year/80M contract with his injury history. There was a segment on MLB TV where the topic was "over/under" and they asked the panelists to predict if Ryu would start +/- 80 games over the duration of his 4 year contract. All of them said under. Hard to get angry about not making a desperate move with such a high likelihood of failure. I would rather spend the money on Donaldson in spite of our need for starting pitching. 

[Linus]

My concern about the off season is that everyone thinks we can just trade for a good starter since we whiffed in free agency. I think that is WAY harder than people think. Teams that are trying aren’t trading good MLB pitching. That leaves you with teams that aren’t trying that have good pitchers they are willing to part with. I’m guessing that list is pretty short.

[Mike Sixel]

While everyone has understandably strong feelings about the offseason, I don't think people's positions are really that far apart. I think almost all of us can agree that:

 

1. The Twins should have a very strong 2020 season.

2. That season could be even better with impact signings and/or trades.

 

The disagreements come down to whether a person wants to emphasize point 1 or point 2. One of the fun things about Twins Daily is that we can discuss and argue the fine points about things like this, when I would imagine most of us are pretty similar in how we feel. Same thing happens to John and Aaron on Gleeman and the Geek a lot, same opinion but different ways to get there.

Love this post

[big dog]

 

I find it extremely hard to understand how there are people that are NOT angry?

 

Read the news and you can find plenty of things to be angry about.  Life is full of joy and despair.  Seek the joy, avoid the despair.  If this really made me angry I would find something else to do.  Life is too short to have things like this eat away at me all the time.  If you enjoy following a team that makes you angry, good luck and enjoy the ride.

 

I still get chills thinking about moments in the two WS championship years, absolutely.  Hrbek's slam, Kirby's catch, Reardon throwing his glove, Larkin trotting home- that's enough to get me teared up.  I'd love to see it happen again, but just thinking we have a shot is enough for now.  Baseball is uncertain, life is uncertain, seek joy where you can and try to avoid despair.  That's the best I can do, personally. I can't make the Pohlads spend more money, I can't make the Vikings win a Super Bowl. I sure as heck can't understand why pass interference is or isn't called. I can enjoy the ride, or I can do something else.

 

We all can do whatever we want.  If you can't figure out why I am not angry (a little disappointed, sure, but in no way angry), maybe this helped.

 

Peace, sisters and brothers.

 

[KirbyDome89]

 

Twins Daily articles are becoming the new xanax for avid Twins fans!

I laughed too hard at this. Probably because it's true....

[prouster]

I just want to say how refreshing this thread has been. People don’t agree on everything, but everyone has been willing to listen to other people’s views. In my opinion, this is what fandom looks like at its best.