Front Page: Let’s Wait to Declare the Offseason a Failure for the Minnesota Twins

[jkcarew]

 

Frankly, I'm disappointed this is on the front page. Make an argument that it isn't a failure, sure. But say that we should use post hoc logic to judge decisions? That's not a good take at all.

Agree.

 

Several things could contribute to a "successful" 2020 (e.g., healthy breakout years from both Buxton and Sano)...that would have nothing to do with off-season moves the FO made. Weak is a fairly kind term to use to describe the argument in the article. The FO had an obvious goal, and hasn't been able to achieve it (so far). If in 2020 Buxton finishes 2nd in the MVP voting and Sano hits 59 home runs, that doesn't change the fact that the FO failed (again, so far)...on the completely obvious to everyone goal of landing a needle-mover for the front-end of the rotation. Still need another corner infielder, as well.

[IndianaTwin]

 

While everyone has understandably strong feelings about the offseason, I don't think people's positions are really that far apart. I think almost all of us can agree that:

1. The Twins should have a very strong 2020 season.
2. That season could be even better with impact signings and/or trades.

The disagreements come down to whether a person wants to emphasize point 1 or point 2. One of the fun things about Twins Daily is that we can discuss and argue the fine points about things like this, when I would imagine most of us are pretty similar in how we feel. Same thing happens to John and Aaron on Gleeman and the Geek a lot, same opinion but different ways to get there.

 

Like others, I’ll “like” this post and do the same with posts 87 and 90 as statements of affirmation. Perhaps you’re a professional mediator in inviting us to recenter and find the places of commonality?

 

(And wouldn’t it be great if I’d have been able to say that I’m affirming posts 87 and 91 — now that would be a great omen!)

 

So I’ll say a hearty “amen” to No. 1. And as an optimist by nature, who prefers to look ahead over looking back, I’ll say that part of what of what I like about the offseason is that I would nuance No. 2 to say “That season could still get even better, because they have still have the time and money to be opportunistic, both in the remaining 2.5 months and during the season.” 

 

And then I’ll add a particular affirmation to the “One of the fun things about Twins Daily...” sentence.

[IndianaTwin]

 

What's great about this article is that we should all just be happy and stop pre-judging the FO until after the season. Then, if things don't work out, we'll be using 20/20 hindsight if we criticize the FO (which is very appropriate for the 2020 season).

 

And based on the Rabelo article, we shouldn't be critical of anything the FO has ever done up to this point either (we WON the Escobar and Pressly trades, everybody!!)..

 

Twins Daily articles are becoming the new xanax for avid Twins fans!

 

I disagree with your first two paragraphs.

 

But the post is still worthy of a “like” for the great way of poking fun at me and others who disagree!   

[jkcarew]

 

Lot's of people are calling this offsesason a failure without any trouble.  I find it somewhat troubling that as many people havent labeled last season a failure after that 3-and-out.  Seems rather inconsistent from the fans. I am not saying you or anyone in particular are a person who called last season a "success" and this offseason a "failure" ..

 

I have a problem with those who are doing that.

Last season, as a whole, was a huge success as a step toward legitimately competing for a pennant. I think some (including me) have tried to make the point that additional steps just as significant need to follow...that the 'failure' of the post-season was real. It wasn't bad luck. It was indicative of the significant gap that remains (from the top teams) is real...despite the considerable ground that was gained. Nothing wrong with fans celebrating 2019 and a future that looks much brighter than it has for some time. But, the FO should be looking at the 2019 post-season...and the season-long challenges against teams with winning records...not the number '101'.

 

Can some of the gap be made up from further steps for current/internal options? Possibly. But, IMO (and I think in the opinion of others as well), the 2019 results exemplify exactly why the FO should be helping with immediate (2020), needle-moving, moves. So far, that hasn't happened. 

[IndianaTwin]

 

I see the roster looking like this after Arb Signings

 

 

 

Is there room for JD? Yes, if $146M is within the Budget

 

Are the Twins in a better position than last year? To me it feels like treading water

 

S1 - Berrios - Berrios

S2 -Odorizzi - Odorizzi

S3 -Gibson - Bailey

S4 -Pineda - Pineda

S5 -Perez - Dobnik

 

BP - Rogers - Rogers

BP - Duffey - Duffey

BP - May - May

BP - Romo - Romo

BP - Smeltzer - Smeltzer

BP - Stashak - Clippard

BP - Littell - Littell

BP - 26th Man - Wisler

 

C - Garver - Garver

1B - Cron - Gonzales

2B - Schoop - Arraez

3B - Sano - Sano

SS - Polanco - Polanco

LF - Rosario - Rosario

CF - Buxton - Buxton

RF - Kepler - Kepler

DH - Cruz - Cruz

BENCH - Castro - Avila

BENCH - Adrianza - Adrianza

BENCH - Cave - Cave

BENCH - Wade - Wade

 

Sure looks the same...with a fair amount of the same amount of unknowns

 

This fan expected a little more than the same

 

Thank you, Tvagle. WIth all of the moving parts and now arbitration numbers available, it’s helpful to have a current snapshot. 

 

Question/comment/observation — it seems to be like I read somewhere that in doing projections like this, one also needs to add some allowance for the fact that with IL stints and the like, one has to include an allowance for bringing up additional guys. Usually those are going to be minimum salary guys, but I’m thinking the suggestion was that on average, a person should fill the spreadsheet out to 33 “full-time equivalents,” to use a term from elsewhere in my life. Does anyone else recall that? It doesn’t appear that your snapshot does that, correct?

 

If so, even if one uses your inclusion of Hill as one of those extra spots, that would still need another six bodies at $600K. So then we’re talking about needing to go to $150MM to get Donaldson, which also wouldn’t take into account the possibility of any additional extensions or taking on any mid-season money above minimum salary. Under that scenario, a Donaldson signing seems less and less likely.

 

Alternatively, I see that you have Sano’s extension in as 9-9-9. Do you know if that’s been confirmed, as opposed to some progression like 6-9-12 leading into the possibility of 14? If the latter, that would gain back the several million I added with the extra bodies.

[arno0091]

Fans have been giving them the benefit of the doubt for 30 years and please stop trying to make fans feel guilty for being tired of the same narrative year after year. You are aware that the MLB has no salary cap, correct? And I already know your rebuttal to that so I'll just remind you of the TV revenue sharing for smaller markets and as far as avoiding the luxury tax I'll remind you that Pohlad is the fourth richest owner, so no excuses. Have fun overanalyzing our barrage of #4 and #5 starters.

[howieramone2]

We've all known for 30 years, the Pohlads practically invented money. If you can find a way to get your hands on it, I'll use my influence with ownership to get you a nice promotion.

[tvagle]

 

Thank you, Tvagle. WIth all of the moving parts and now arbitration numbers available, it’s helpful to have a current snapshot. 

 

Question/comment/observation — it seems to be like I read somewhere that in doing projections like this, one also needs to add some allowance for the fact that with IL stints and the like, one has to include an allowance for bringing up additional guys. Usually those are going to be minimum salary guys, but I’m thinking the suggestion was that on average, a person should fill the spreadsheet out to 33 “full-time equivalents,” to use a term from elsewhere in my life. Does anyone else recall that? It doesn’t appear that your snapshot does that, correct?

 

If so, even if one uses your inclusion of Hill as one of those extra spots, that would still need another six bodies at $600K. So then we’re talking about needing to go to $150MM to get Donaldson, which also wouldn’t take into account the possibility of any additional extensions or taking on any mid-season money above minimum salary. Under that scenario, a Donaldson signing seems less and less likely.

 

Alternatively, I see that you have Sano’s extension in as 9-9-9. Do you know if that’s been confirmed, as opposed to some progression like 6-9-12 leading into the possibility of 14? If the latter, that would gain back the several million I added with the extra bodies.

To Answer/Reply/Rebut this is a current snapshot not a whole year cost sheet

It depicts things as they are at a point in time with salary info pulled from Cots/MLBTR/8% Raise for all Minimum Contract returning players (I made that amount up myself)

 

This snapshot shows what they will have to play players, injured or not

Any callups or replacement players would obviously be adds to the original number

 

No insight on Sano...just went with one of the options first floated by those who broke the signing online

 

Appreciate the shout out...don't overthink the tool...it's not machine learning it's a contract summary

[sweetmusicviola16]

 

Read the news and you can find plenty of things to be angry about.  Life is full of joy and despair.  Seek the joy, avoid the despair.  If this really made me angry I would find something else to do.  Life is too short to have things like this eat away at me all the time.  If you enjoy following a team that makes you angry, good luck and enjoy the ride.

 

I still get chills thinking about moments in the two WS championship years, absolutely.  Hrbek's slam, Kirby's catch, Reardon throwing his glove, Larkin trotting home- that's enough to get me teared up.  I'd love to see it happen again, but just thinking we have a shot is enough for now.  Baseball is uncertain, life is uncertain, seek joy where you can and try to avoid despair.  That's the best I can do, personally. I can't make the Pohlads spend more money, I can't make the Vikings win a Super Bowl. I sure as heck can't understand why pass interference is or isn't called. I can enjoy the ride, or I can do something else.

 

We all can do whatever we want.  If you can't figure out why I am not angry (a little disappointed, sure, but in no way angry), maybe this helped.

 

Peace, sisters and brothers.

Or enjoy today's North Dakota State FCS title. Final today: NDSU 28 James Madison 20. This marks NDSU's 8th title in 9 seasons. Today's win was their 37th in a row. A true Dynasty in our backyard. I'm a lifelong, 52 years young, Twins fan and I think this off season leaves something to be desired too. But I can find plenty of other resons for joy in life though. A big hooray for the Sano signing too. Great value, and since we aren't into big FA deals it's nice to keep a potential beast in Miguel. BOSOX won't get Big Pappy2 anytime soon.

[Major League Ready]

 

Thank you, Tvagle. WIth all of the moving parts and now arbitration numbers available, it’s helpful to have a current snapshot. 

 

Question/comment/observation — it seems to be like I read somewhere that in doing projections like this, one also needs to add some allowance for the fact that with IL stints and the like, one has to include an allowance for bringing up additional guys. Usually those are going to be minimum salary guys, but I’m thinking the suggestion was that on average, a person should fill the spreadsheet out to 33 “full-time equivalents,” to use a term from elsewhere in my life. Does anyone else recall that? It doesn’t appear that your snapshot does that, correct?

 

If so, even if one uses your inclusion of Hill as one of those extra spots, that would still need another six bodies at $600K. So then we’re talking about needing to go to $150MM to get Donaldson, which also wouldn’t take into account the possibility of any additional extensions or taking on any mid-season money above minimum salary. Under that scenario, a Donaldson signing seems less and less likely.

 

Alternatively, I see that you have Sano’s extension in as 9-9-9. Do you know if that’s been confirmed, as opposed to some progression like 6-9-12 leading into the possibility of 14? If the latter, that would gain back the several million I added with the extra bodies.

 

You are using 6 FTEs. They only get paid MLB compensation when they are on the 26 man roster. We are in real trouble if we have 6 guys out on average for the entire season. The cost for MiLB replacements is more like $1M. I suppose it could be a little more if we have another Arreaz arise but the FO would be happy with that scenario!

[ewen21]

 

Last season, as a whole, was a huge success as a step toward legitimately competing for a pennant. I think some (including me) have tried to make the point that additional steps just as significant need to follow...that the 'failure' of the post-season was real. It wasn't bad luck. It was indicative of the significant gap that remains (from the top teams) is real...despite the considerable ground that was gained. Nothing wrong with fans celebrating 2019 and a future that looks much brighter than it has for some time. But, the FO should be looking at the 2019 post-season...and the season-long challenges against teams with winning records...not the number '101'.

 

Can some of the gap be made up from further steps for current/internal options? Possibly. But, IMO (and I think in the opinion of others as well), the 2019 results exemplify exactly why the FO should be helping with immediate (2020), needle-moving, moves. So far, that hasn't happened. 

Let's say we signed Ryu and appeased a very vocal segment of the fanbase.  Is this guy going help get us over when we've played like we are lobotomized in the playoffs in each of last four appearances?  Doesn't that need to end?  We had more than enough offense and yet again we went into a coma.  Is this about getting a shiny new present or is about reality?  Ryu pitched one game in the postseason and he went 5 and gave up two runs.  Is this guy a needle moving talent?  Maybe he has electric stuff, but he has all kinds of durability problems.  I already highlighted my concerns about him and I thought we were right to pass on him.  No one should be surprised if he doesn't make it through season given his track record, age and physical stature.  So when I see all sorts of anger about not signing him I don't get it,

 

Big picture, last season was disastrous to me.  It felt great all summer and then we proved that we are still stuck with the inferiority complex, indifference, false sense of accomplishment or whatever it is.  We had as good a chance at breaking this embarrassing streak.  All we had to do was win a game and we could not.  It was like no one wanted to acknowledge the gorilla in the room going into it and some people were even thinking it was the right time to play the Yankees.  When I questioned it, the mindset was that this team had nothing to do with all the other teams and that is a mistake because now they are no different.  I don't want to hear about this significant gap.  Not last year.  The Yankees pitching was not any better than ours and they were missing Domingo German (their best performer last year).  We had the "Bomba Squad" against their middle of the pack staff and we didn't show up.  Terrible at bats, dismissive mindset about the history and then they were quick to write it off as "short series" and "anything could happen" and "successful season"

 

As a fan, I am more ticked off about the result at the end of last year than I am this off season.  I did not see us as realistic suiters for Cole.  Wheeler and Bumgarner had their preferences and Ryu is just too risky.  To quote Rocco, "I am not frustrated at all"

Let us just go with Graterol and see what he can do.  It is time for Byron Buxton to stop being half a player.  He needs to be more durable and he has to be more consistent with the bat.  Let's not start comparing Kepler to Yelitch and believing that he has the same potential.  Kepler really disappointed at the end of the season. 

 

The FO constructed a very good team last winter with some smart mid-level under the radar moves.  FOr whatever reason, there exists a toxic mindset in this organization where players are confused about what success is.  Last year was no success

 

[The Wise One]

 

Fans have been giving them the benefit of the doubt for 30 years and please stop trying to make fans feel guilty for being tired of the same narrative year after year. You are aware that the MLB has no salary cap, correct? And I already know your rebuttal to that so I'll just remind you of the TV revenue sharing for smaller markets and as far as avoiding the luxury tax I'll remind you that Pohlad is the fourth richest owner, so no excuses. Have fun overanalyzing our barrage of #4 and #5 starters.

Gate receipts are also shared. When your team raises more revenue through attendance increases, 40% or so goes to the other teams. No one has yet to show any recent team that has lost money.  Expecting and demanding the Pohlads spend their own money on the team payroll when no team has spent the owner's money this century seems foolish. 

[howeda7]

 

Gate receipts are also shared. When your team raises more revenue through attendance increases, 40% or so goes to the other teams. No one has yet to show any recent team that has lost money.  Expecting and demanding the Pohlads spend their own money on the team payroll when no team has spent the owner's money this century seems foolish. 

No one is expecting that. If they could afford a $130 million payroll in 2018, it stands to reason they can afford a $140 million payroll in 2020 given higher ticket sales and inflation. Instead they're sitting a $110.

[David HK]

 

Or enjoy today's North Dakota State FCS title. Final today: NDSU 28 James Madison 20. This marks NDSU's 8th title in 9 seasons. Today's win was their 37th in a row. A true Dynasty in our backyard. I'm a lifelong, 52 years young, Twins fan and I think this off season leaves something to be desired too. But I can find plenty of other resons for joy in life though. A big hooray for the Sano signing too. Great value, and since we aren't into big FA deals it's nice to keep a potential beast in Miguel. BOSOX won't get Big Pappy2 anytime soon.

As a UND grad, I can only be about halfway happy about NDSU winning.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

True, but very few, if any, other teams had only one starter under contract at that time (or even just two, given that we could have picked up Perez’s option). In that area at least, I’d argue that they had the most to lose of anyone if they didn’t have a good offseason, and I’d argue that as a result, they’ve improved more than anyone in that regard.

But wasn't this FO largely responsible for the "one starter under contract on Nov. 1" situation in the first place? By this logic, their 2019-2020 offseason would have been worse if they had managed to trade for Stroman at the deadline, or extend Odorizzi earlier, or sign Corbin last winter, etc.

 

I think they've dealt with it adequately, at this point, but again, it's a situation of their own making, so I can't really give them extra credit for their work since Nov. 1st.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I find it extremely hard to understand how there are people that are NOT angry?

 

Honestly. Were some of you not around during the 2000's? This team had a core that consisted of a Cy Young Winner, Batting champion, and MVP all in the same season. This same season they employed a journeyman utility player at DH. The "big trade" they made to put this team over the top? DFA fodder for PTBNL types.

 

This is the same path I see this new front office going down as it pertains to player acquisitions. I've said it before, these guys are not much different than Terry Ryan when it comes to that.

 

THAT is what is frustrating to those of us with the different opinion than ya'll.

There are plenty of things happening in this world that make me truly angry and despair for mankind as a whole.

 

Baseball ain’t one of those things.

 

Am I frustrated? Sure, definitely. But, at the end of the day, this is intended to be entertainment, not the Nuremberg trials.

[DocBauer]

Just reflecting after reading every post and opinion over the past couple of days. So much I like and agree with and thoughts I understand and empathize with, well thought out, even if I don't fully agree. (Indiana and others stole some of my thoughts, but here goes).

 

1] I think this whole "impact pitching" comment is understandable in context when first uttered, but bas turned in to one filled with hyperbole and discontent intertrpation. Which makes sense. There have already been comments as to wishing that comment had never been said, or had been phrased differently. I really liked how Indiana referenced pitchING vs pitchER. And that may be the biggest rub this off season.

 

The truth is, when the season ended, Odorizzi and Pineda, amongst others, were no longer members of the Twins. Was "impact pitching" a reflection of knowing ahead of time they would be gone, or some hyperbolic comment in reference to adding a special SOMEONE? I honestly don't know. But I know the adding, or re-adding of Odorizzi and Pineda ARE important moves. How many 80-90 win teams would just love to add those guys to their rotation? Just because they were with us last season shouldn't diminish their re-up for 2020.

 

To a lesser degree, we could say the same things about Romo and Clippard.

 

2] I am very, very disappointed we didn't land Wheeler or Bumgarner. One has the potential to still raise his game. The other is probably past his prime, (despite their similar age), but would have been an experienced competitor to challenge Odorizzi for our 2nd best SP. I am "pissed off" that both of these guys had literally no intention of signing with the Twins, or most anybody else, unless they fit a certain impossible parameter. Wheeler wanted to stay east coast and told Chicago thanks but no thanks to more money. I suppose if the Twins went $140M he MIGHT have told his fiance she would just have to deal. But are we being realistic in that kind of scenario? Or are we just frustrated and disappointed and want to vent?

 

I've heard jokes about paying enough $ for Bumgarner to have a ranch in Minnesota for his horses if we just offered enough $. Funny. But again, can we be real? The guy made his own deal because it's what he wanted and he left millions on the table as a result. No insult to Minnesota or anyone else, just a fact.

 

Am I disappointed? Hell yes I am! Do I think I was "lied to" by the FO? In what possible way?

 

Do you believe the Twins should have signed Ryu or Kuechel? Great, tell me why. I might even agree with you! (I was out on Ryu but interested in Kuechel). But whether you like ownership or not, believe they are cheap or not, show me a single report on either SP that was turned down by a better offer? The FO simply didn't believe either was a fit, at least for the terms being tossed around. Argue with me, debate with me, convince me Ryu is worth what he got. You really think an aging, injury prone SP is worth 4yrs and $20M per? Or are you just wanting so bad for something to happen and offer a different tool of optimism?

 

If I sound angry or combative...I'm not. I'm disappointed in some things that have happened, and not happened, this off season. But I like to think I can still look at the devil in the details and at least understand what has happened and was has not happened. But i can still say "damnit" without blame and still remain hopeful.

 

I absolutely agree you can grade this off season without waiting for 2020 to be complete. You might prove to have been in absolute error, but you can grade it at this point if you want to. I have no idea what signings or trades the Twins may yet make. They may only make a small move or two. They could make at least one major one, if not two. And they may not be done until ST starts. They've made moves each of the past couple of years after ST began.

 

When do I pass out a grade other than "incomplete" and "I'm not satisfied yet even though I'm only disappointed and not angry things haven't gone the way I wanted even though the current moves are smart ones"? I don't know. Maybe it's after the first month of play and I see the product on the field. But right now, I guess I'd say it's when the team heads north to begin the season and I just see what the roster looks like.

 

Then, I won't judge the SEASON, as that would be impossible. But I could at least judge the OFF season at that point.

[IndianaTwin]

 

You are using 6 FTEs. They only get paid MLB compensation when they are on the 26 man roster. We are in real trouble if we have 6 guys out on average for the entire season. The cost for MiLB replacements is more like $1M. I suppose it could be a little more if we have another Arreaz arise but the FO would be happy with that scenario!

 

For what it’s worth, I was able to find a site that listed total DL/IL days by season. It wasn’t updated for 2019, but for the previous 10 years, the Twins averaged 721 DL/IL days, so probably around 4 FTE would be more accurate, or a little over $2M. 

[tvagle]

 

For what it’s worth, I was able to find a site that listed total DL/IL days by season. It wasn’t updated for 2019, but for the previous 10 years, the Twins averaged 721 DL/IL days, so probably around 4 FTE would be more accurate, or a little over $2M. 

Nice work Hoosier-Daddy...not sure it's worth the effort for $2M

[Richard Swerdlick]

Excellent article. Sports fans tend to be fickle with short attention spans.

 

[nclahammer]

 

Thank you Patrick.   It's great to see a piece or comment that is not all doom and gloom or, "TO CRUSH YOUR ENEMIES.   SEE THEM DRIVEN BEFORE YOU AND TO HEAR THE LAMENTATIONS OF THEIR WOMEN!"  (OK, perhaps that last part is a little over the top ).

 

 

Nice...love love LOVE the Conan the Barbarian movie reference.  Wheeler would have been a terrific addition, but geography became as much of a factor as the $18 million more the Phillies offered   Falvey and Levine have had more hits than swings and misses acquring players and I'm exercising some patience to see how it all unfolds before I hit the panic button.

[TwinsFan347]

If you want to call the off-season a failure because the FO said they would pursue "impact pitching" and to this point we haven't seen it, that's fine. For me that's of little importance for a couple of reasons...

 

1. The roster as it stands currently is better than last year, at least on paper. We lost Castro (.7 WAR) replaced by Avila (1.4 WAR), Cron (1.4) replaced by M Gonzalez(1.6 WAR) unless we add someone, Schoop (1.6 WAR) replaced by Arraez (1.8 WAR-in only 366 PA's), Kyle Gibson (.3 WAR) replaced by H Bailey (1.8 WAR), M Perez (.2 WAR) replaced by R Hill (1.3 WAR in only 58 IP), B Parker (.3 WAR) replaced by T Clippard (1.4 WAR)

 

2. Fortunately, the Twins aren't limited to the off-season. As someone pointed out it could prove difficult to trade for any impact players at this point as most organizations want to see how the season starts prior to moving players like this. By the time the trade deadline comes around this won't be the case as more teams will be looking to move quality veteran players for prospects. If the Twins are having the kind of year we expect at that time I would expect the FO to aggressively pursue those options based on our needs at that time.

 

Lastly, here is my take on the offseason. The FO was thinking that outside of Cole & Strasburg this offseason would be more like last year and you could land Wheeler or Ryu on a team friendly deal. Obviously, that didn't happen so they made their best offer to Wheeler and were outbid and backed off Ryu because of the length of contract. All of this talk about "impact pitching makes me curious how much better would you feel about our chances in the playoffs (assuming we make it) with Wheeler or Ryu? Is that worth damaging our ability to extend our young core?

[rdehring]

As I read all these comments, something is becomming clear...at least to me.  There are two underlying beliefs that Twins fans, and TD reader/commenters, have about success.

 

One camp believes that the ultimate goal is to win a World Series.  Although I don't want to speak for anyone else, it appears to me they would go all in to attempt to make that happen.  All in sounds to me that they would trade a substantial portion of the organization's top prospects.  If not breaking the bank, they would certainly push the budget well beyond recent limits to sign a couple 'impact' players.  Whether or not that would affect future extensions for current young players, to heck with it if a World Series is within reach.

 

Others, including myself, believe that long-term success is important for both fans and the health of the franchise.  Personally, I get a ton of happiness out of all those days over the long season when the Twins win.  Heck, I enjoy most of the games they lose, assuming the game was competitive and exciting.  To me, six months of feeling good about my team outweighs the week of total disappointment from going three and out in round one of the playoffs. [Don't misunderstand what I am saying, I would love my Twins to win the World Series...just not at any cost] 

 

I think that is one of the major differences we have.  I'll take a season long high, others want that high AND the ultimate prize.  The good news is that pitchers and catchers report in 31 days when we will again have some real baseball to talk about.

[akmanak]

While this is well written this is another puff piece. Year after year the Twins management has mentioned they are going to go after quality pitchers that can propel us to the next level and year after year it never happens.

 

This organization simply can not stand idle when the White Sox make substantial moves to improve their team and let us not forget about Cleveland who still has a team that is comparable to the Twins.

 

No one could of guessed that the Twins would of won 101 games last season which was exciting but what is not exciting is how management has done nothing to improve our chances in reaching the main goal and that is the world series.

 

I don't buy into the BS that you have to overspend to get a ring but I also don't buy into the BS that this off-season is even close to successful in regards to improve this team

 

Enough of the constant excuses we hear from reporters, Twin's management, and fans that believe that the Twins off-season has been successful and in contrast actually has been a complete failure.

[howieramone2]

America's Team won 72 games last season, missed the playoffs 11 years in a row, and has had 7 consecutive losing seasons. Compared to the Indians, we spend stupid money.

[Mike Sixel]

 

As I read all these comments, something is becomming clear...at least to me.  There are two underlying beliefs that Twins fans, and TD reader/commenters, have about success.

 

One camp believes that the ultimate goal is to win a World Series.  Although I don't want to speak for anyone else, it appears to me they would go all in to attempt to make that happen.  All in sounds to me that they would trade a substantial portion of the organization's top prospects.  If not breaking the bank, they would certainly push the budget well beyond recent limits to sign a couple 'impact' players.  Whether or not that would affect future extensions for current young players, to heck with it if a World Series is within reach.

 

Others, including myself, believe that long-term success is important for both fans and the health of the franchise.  Personally, I get a ton of happiness out of all those days over the long season when the Twins win.  Heck, I enjoy most of the games they lose, assuming the game was competitive and exciting.  To me, six months of feeling good about my team outweighs the week of total disappointment from going three and out in round one of the playoffs. [Don't misunderstand what I am saying, I would love my Twins to win the World Series...just not at any cost] 

 

I think that is one of the major differences we have.  I'll take a season long high, others want that high AND the ultimate prize.  The good news is that pitchers and catchers report in 31 days when we will again have some real baseball to talk about.

 

How about signing one big time FA. Not all in. One. One big time FA. Or, even making one big time trade? one. Not trading the whole farm. Almost no one is arguing that. Really.

 

We don't care what the FO says about adding impact players or not. We care if they actually do add impact players.

 

In a year where they had budget room, and it was the best FA pitching class in decades, and, coincidentally, they needed to add pitching.

 

As for the WS, I want them to be favored in the playoffs because they have a better team. If they lose, sometimes that happens. But I have little interest in winning 90+ games and then getting dominated in the first round of the playoffs as everyone would predict given the rosters. Beating up on the worst division in baseball brings me very little at this point. I understand others disagree, but I don't really find it all that interesting to beat up on two -three of the worst teams in the game.

[howieramone2]

Look it up. Last year at this time the best FA pitching class in decades was considered to be nothing special.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

As I read all these comments, something is becomming clear...at least to me. There are two underlying beliefs that Twins fans, and TD reader/commenters, have about success.

 

One camp believes that the ultimate goal is to win a World Series. Although I don't want to speak for anyone else, it appears to me they would go all in to attempt to make that happen. All in sounds to me that they would trade a substantial portion of the organization's top prospects. If not breaking the bank, they would certainly push the budget well beyond recent limits to sign a couple 'impact' players. Whether or not that would affect future extensions for current young players, to heck with it if a World Series is within reach.

 

Others, including myself, believe that long-term success is important for both fans and the health of the franchise. Personally, I get a ton of happiness out of all those days over the long season when the Twins win. Heck, I enjoy most of the games they lose, assuming the game was competitive and exciting. To me, six months of feeling good about my team outweighs the week of total disappointment from going three and out in round one of the playoffs. [Don't misunderstand what I am saying, I would love my Twins to win the World Series...just not at any cost]

 

I think that is one of the major differences we have. I'll take a season long high, others want that high AND the ultimate prize. The good news is that pitchers and catchers report in 31 days when we will again have some real baseball to talk about.

That’s fine, but you seem to spend a lot of effort arguing against those people who do want to see a deep playoff run. (I will resist saying “World Series Champion or bust” because I think most people will be able to agree that a season like the 2014 Royals or 2017 Brewers would be a success, even if ending in disappointment.)

 

One thing I don’t understand is why you feel it would be going “all in” if the Twins traded away one or two of our Top 6 or 8 prospects? Do you not have confidence in the front office in replenishing the system?

 

Another thing I don’t understand is why you think signing a contract like Wheeler’s or Ryu would be considered breaking the bank? Do you not see the organization as being in good financial health?

 

 

Edit: not picking on you, just airing the questions (again) to anyone in general

Edited January 12, 2020 by Hosken Bombo Disco

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

 

 

 

 

We get it

[IndianaTwin]

 

...

1. The roster as it stands currently is better than last year, at least on paper. We lost Castro (.7 WAR) replaced by Avila (1.4 WAR), Cron (1.4) replaced by M Gonzalez(1.6 WAR) unless we add someone, Schoop (1.6 WAR) replaced by Arraez (1.8 WAR-in only 366 PA's), Kyle Gibson (.3 WAR) replaced by H Bailey (1.8 WAR), M Perez (.2 WAR) replaced by R Hill (1.3 WAR in only 58 IP), B Parker (.3 WAR) replaced by T Clippard (1.4 WAR)...

 

Thanks for quantifying these. To nitpick a tiny bit, it’s not a complete apples-to-apples to say that we replaced Cron with 2020 Gonzalez, since we also have to replace 2019 Gonzalez the bench player in that case. Similarly, counting on 2020 Arraez to replace Schoop means that we also have to replace 2019 Arraez. I think that’s why there’s interest from a lot of us in picking up at least one more hitter, with some wanting to jump in with both feet on Donaldson, some going after Bryant in another thread, and others naming the Moreland/Bird route. 

 

I do concur with the gist of your post, however. You’ve also helped to illustrate a point that I’ve made in a number of threads along the way, namely that this front office’s M.O. seems to be to make a high volume of moves that each nudge the needle a little bit, rather than making a few big-splash moves. I think that’s why they are VERY reluctant to make moves that they think will paint themselves into an even a tiny bit of a corner — they place a premium on future flexibility. Thus, I suspect they will sign very, very few FOs to contracts more than four years, with most of them being one and two years. They also seem big on tacking an option year whenever they get a chance, which I like a lot.