Front Page: With Twins Likely Out on Donaldson, So What's the Plan Now?

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Guys making more money than God isn’t a excuse. You just don’t get the implications of players making crazy money and what it’s done to the game.

If a guy like Donaldson from some jerkwater town in Florida already has earned tens of millions of dollars and is assured an amazing pension anyway, what is the difference between getting 90 million and 120 million at the end of his career? He’s already earned over 80 million. Cut out the taxes and pay his agent and he still has earned at least 30 or 40. What if he just wants to play near home? He’s married and he’s got enough money for a couple of generations of Donaldsons.

Ever think of the possibility that baseball players are so rich these days that 10, 20, 30 million doesn’t make enough of a difference? He wants to use other teams against the Braves to jack up his price. Do you not get this or do you just want to throw tantrums all the way until the season starts?

ALL you have done over the last month is complain daily about how the Twins aren’t paying every single free more money than everybody else in the market. In every single case you have advocated for the Twins to outbid the entire market for each of the last five big free agents.

Well guess what? It’s not happening.
And furthermore, Donaldson isn’t going to put us over the top. Donaldson and Ryu together wouldn’t have.

Scream all you want now. I’m done talking about Josh Donaldson

 

Like he already said. Make the highest bid for the guys you want. Not all will take them, but half or better will. Continually being low man at the auction won't get it done.

 

Will some still pick to go where they want regardless of money? For sure. But not all of them will. What we have seen so far is the Twins making a lower offer than what whoever has signed for then being perplexed that they didn't get their guy. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

I'm really not surprised at all by this offseason. The Pohlads are the problem. We've had some pretty smart GMs over the years. It's not them. Ownership puts severe limits on this team yearly. Dumpster diving, one year contracts, relying on prospects is going to continue. We need better prospects - Randy Dobnak should not be starting a playoff game.

Not really disputing any of that, but if the Pohlads are truly the only reason the Twins haven't reached the level of spending that they should, then this FO has to be better about managing that reality. I believe ownership has a lot to do with it, but based on what we've heard from both Falvey and Levine it's hard not to see them as timid after their most recent bout of inactivity.

 

I'd love to see MN spend north of 140M, and I think they owe it to the public after years of being terrible and keeping payroll in the bottom third of the league. I agree with a lot of what the FO says in regards to where this organization needs to go. The issue is that what they're saying and what they're doing don't align, at least in regards to the current team. The ambiguous buzzwords and catchphrases, the schilling by media to excuse the inactivity and lack of spending, and the rebranding of tired old habits as innovative has started to grind on me personally. 

[ewen21]

 

Why did Nelson Cruz sign here? He could have taken a couple million less and gone to Houston? Why did Gonzalez? Why did Lance Lynn? All of them signed here because we made the best offer.

 

I've already told you why.  When we get into high price tag, big earner, multi-year deals players hit a saturation point.  What the HECK is the difference between 90 million and 110 million?  Certain players are starting to earn so much money that 10 and 20 million dollars can't even sway them. Bumgarner admitted he left money on the table and it's likely his agent and the union wasn't all too happy about it, but he spoke the truth.

 

This isn't about GUYS DON'T WANT TO PLAY IN MINNESOTA.  It is more about these high price tag free agents tend to have other preferences and they make so much damn money now that 10 or 20 extra million doesn't even move the needle.  Those other dudes you mentioned didn't have the same kind of leverage.  

 

Pretty elementary stuff

[ewen21]

 

Like he already said. Make the highest bid for the guys you want. Not all will take them, but half or better will. Continually being low man at the auction won't get it done.

 

Will some still pick to go where they want regardless of money? For sure. But not all of them will. What we have seen so far is the Twins making a lower offer than what whoever has signed for then being perplexed that they didn't get their guy. 

 

I didn't say ALL OF THEM will.  I am saying for the upper-echelon guys it's becoming more about where they want to play than it is the money.  They already have their money.  When you talk about guys who have already earned, 50, 60, 80, dollars and more looking for a multiyear deal they care more about where they end up than a guy like Lance Lynn on a one year deal.

 

You seem to understand what I am saying, but I am stunned by the level of incredulity demonstrated here.  Simply put, the players make too much damn money and this is the side-effect.  If you are a supporter of the player's union and their right to be free agents then I don't want to hear any complaining about how the FO can't sign guys.  I am not saying you are, but there are a number of people playing both sides of that fence and they don't even know it.

[gocgo]

I'm not sure Washington is in the mix anymore for Donaldson at his price.  I'm not sure we should be.  Is he an upgrade at 3rd and to the lineup?  Sure.  Is he a 110K/4 years at age 34 upgrade?  Not so sure.  I thought Gonzalez played a better 1st than Cron last year.  La Tortuga may have played a better 1st than Cron last year!  My gut tells me that the market for Donaldson is cooling and that he ultimately signs with Atlanta for less than the Twins are offering.  If we stumble this year, I don't think 1st/3rd will be the reason, it will be pitching.

[Richard Swerdlick]

The plan of Falvine's is clearly to build from within as much as possible. Brent Rooker, and a host of others deserve a chance in spring training to see if they can handle the first base job, or someone else in the system can play 3rd base and move Sano to 1st. A deal may be possible, but I am fine with not breaking the bank to sign a 34 y.o. 3rd baseman for 25 mil a year for 4 years.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I didn't say ALL OF THEM will.  I am saying for the upper-echelon guys it's becoming more about where they want to play than it is the money.  They already have their money.  When you talk about guys who have already earned, 50, 60, 80, dollars and more looking for a multiyear deal they care more about where they end up than a guy like Lance Lynn on a one year deal.

 

You seem to understand what I am saying, but I am stunned by the level of incredulity demonstrated here.  Simply put, the players make too much damn money and this is the side-effect.  If you are a supporter of the player's union and their right to be free agents then I don't want to hear any complaining about how the FO can't sign guys.  I am not saying you are, but there are a number of people playing both sides of that fence and they don't even know it.

 

The players do not make too much money. Either they get it, or the owners. 

[Major League Ready]

 

The players do not make too much money. Either they get it, or the owners. 

 

That has nothing to do with his point. If your company paid you $200M, you would exercise the freedom that is a product of that type of wealth regardless of how much or how little the company was making. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

That has nothing to do with his point. If your company paid you $200M, you would exercise the freedom that is a product of that type of wealth regardless of how much or how little the company was making. 

 

Then why does he keep typing it?

 

Of course the other parts matter, but if that's not his point, he should stop typing it over and over.

[howeda7]

 

I've already told you why.  When we get into high price tag, big earner, multi-year deals players hit a saturation point.  What the HECK is the difference between 90 million and 110 million?  Certain players are starting to earn so much money that 10 and 20 million dollars can't even sway them. Bumgarner admitted he left money on the table and it's likely his agent and the union wasn't all too happy about it, but he spoke the truth.

 

This isn't about GUYS DON'T WANT TO PLAY IN MINNESOTA.  It is more about these high price tag free agents tend to have other preferences and they make so much damn money now that 10 or 20 extra million doesn't even move the needle.  Those other dudes you mentioned didn't have the same kind of leverage.  

 

Pretty elementary stuff

Both Cruz and Lynn have earned tens of millions of dollars in their careers. Why come here to our frozen tundra when they could have gone elsewhere for only a couple million less? Why not go to Houston where it's warm and there's a better shot at a WS? Not a single player has turned down an extra $10-20 million. Certainly not from the Twins. But not from anyone else either. MadBaum's the only one who turned down more $, and it wasn't from us.

[ewen21]

 

Both Cruz and Lynn have earned tens of millions of dollars in their careers. 

Dude, it's like you're dancing with no music playing.  Neither were poised to earn 9 figures like Donaldson is right now so they are completely irrelevant to my point

 

And Mike, I keep repeating it because of posts like this.  I SPECIFICALLY talked about guys looking for the big multi-year deal approaching 9 figures, the silly money.....and he brings up Lynn and Cruz.

 

Really???

[howeda7]

 

Dude, it's like you're dancing with no music playing.  Neither were poised to earn 9 figures like Donaldson is right now so they are completely irrelevant to my point

 

And Mike, I keep repeating it because of posts like this.  I SPECIFICALLY talked about guys looking for the big multi-year deal approaching 9 figures, the silly money.....and he brings up Lynn and Cruz.

 

Really???

In the case of the Twins, there's no one else to bring up, because we've signed no FA's to long contracts in years. That doesn't change the fact that MadBaum is the only one known to have left $$ on the table this off-season. The Twins didn't make the top bid for anyone and get turned down for other reasons. Period.

[howeda7]

FWIW, Iglesias and Thames have come off the board today, so the plan D options are also dwindling fast.

[shimrod]

"but I am fine with not breaking the bank to sign a 34 y.o. 3rd baseman for 25 mil a year for 4 years."

 

So am I. But only if that money is spent to improve the team somewhere else. If the alternative is ownership pocketing that money, screw it. Sign the man up. 

 

The FO needs to understand (and probably does), the more you upgrade the talent the higher the cost of improvement. Improving the bottom-feeding team we fielded in the 90's was easy. As the talent level rises the price of improvement grows, and it's not a linear function. The FO had multiple options to improve this team at the beginning of free agency. One by one we've seen those options go to other clubs while we sign cheap, aging and injured lottery tickets. 

 

Now we're in a position where improvement will cost us prospects instead of dollars, which is antithetical to the stated desire to obtain sustainable success through internal development. The FO said when the window opened they'd spend on impact talent. The failure to do so either marks a failure of the FO to perform or admission the FO was lying when they said they'd spend. Based upon the history of this team and the known proclivities of ownership I expect the latter explanation is correct. 

[ewen21]

I am on record in this thread with my theory as to how money doesn't matter enough of anymore once you get into 9 figures.  These are baseball players.  They aren't running a major operation, with hundreds and hundreds of employees and all sorts of responsibilities.  They just have to play baseball and they don't even need to do it well because the money is guaranteed.

 

Donaldson is set to earn 9  figures and he has already earned 80 million.  What the heck does 10 million more even mean to him?  Honestly.  That kind of money doesn't have the sway that it would for a guy looking for a one year deal or a two year deal.

 

So please....don't talk to me about Lance Lynn, Odorizzi or whomever.  That is on a totally different level and is nothing to do with what I am saying and the effect that a guy like Donaldson is experiencing right now.  This idea that says...."Man, If we only give him 10 million more than everyone else we would have him!" is futile and it isn't even necessarily true.  He is going to play where he wants.  Isn't that what being a free agent is all about?  The dude lives in Mobile, Alabama and is from Jacksonville, Fl.  He's spent his time far away from home in Oakland and Toronto.  YOu don't think MAYBE he'd like to finish up closer to home?  You don't think MAYBE he's just  using the Twins and has no desire to play anywhere but Atlanta or some team with REAL playoff pedigree?

 

Come on now.....please

[howeda7]

 

I am on record in this thread with my theory as to how money doesn't matter enough of anymore once you get into 9 figures.  These are baseball players.  They aren't running a major operation, with hundreds and hundreds of employees and all sorts of responsibilities.  They just have to play baseball and they don't even need to do it well because the money is guaranteed.

 

Donaldson is set to earn 9  figures and he has already earned 80 million.  What the heck does 10 million more even mean to him?  Honestly.  That kind of money doesn't have the sway that it would for a guy looking for a one year deal or a two year deal.

 

So please....don't talk to me about Lance Lynn, Odorizzi or whomever.  That is on a totally different level and is nothing to do with what I am saying and the effect that a guy like Donaldson is experiencing right now.  This idea that says...."Man, If we only give him 10 million more than everyone else we would have him!" is futile and it isn't even necessarily true.  He is going to play where he wants.  Isn't that what being a free agent is all about?  The dude lives in Mobile, Alabama and is from Jacksonville, Fl.  He's spent his time far away from home in Oakland and Toronto.  YOu don't think MAYBE he'd like to finish up closer to home?  You don't think MAYBE he's just  using the Twins and has no desire to play anywhere but Atlanta or some team with REAL playoff pedigree?

 

Come on now.....please

If, even once, the Twins tested your theory and offered him $10 million more than the next team, you'd have a point. Instead they offer $4/80 when the top offer is 4/$100 and you tell us we could never sign him anyway, so it's OK if they don't raise their offer.

 

Why are they wasting their time then? Why stay "in" on him for weeks on end? Why offer Wheeler $100 million? Why engage on Ryu at all?

[ewen21]

 

If, even once, the Twins tested your theory and offered him $10 million more than the next team, you'd have a point. Instead they offer $4/80 when the top offer is 4/$100 and you tell us we could never sign him anyway, so it's OK if they don't raise their offer.

 

Why are they wasting their time then? Why stay "in" on him for weeks on end? Why offer Wheeler $100 million? Why engage on Ryu at all?

I am not making the freakin offers.  I am just telling you something and I am convinced you still do not understand it.  I think the FO gets what I am saying and you don't

 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Dude, it's like you're dancing with no music playing. Neither were poised to earn 9 figures like Donaldson is right now so they are completely irrelevant to my point

 

And Mike, I keep repeating it because of posts like this. I SPECIFICALLY talked about guys looking for the big multi-year deal approaching 9 figures, the silly money.....and he brings up Lynn and Cruz.

 

Really???

mod note:

 

Not only to the quoted poster, but the several other posters fighting the same tired old argument.

 

Keep to OP. This thread is not about “why not the Twins” or “How much is too much”

 

It’s about what to do next.

 

Please discuss plans on what to do next.

[SomeGuy]

It may not be accurate to position this development as the result of Minnesota’s disinclination toward spending at a certain level—rather, Donaldson may simply have another preferred destination in mind, with the Braves and Nationals reported as two other clubs that have made four-year offers. Miller’s sources indicate that Donaldson “has not appeared interested in signing with Minnesota, and the team has begun investigating other options.” -Trade Rumors

[sweetmusicviola16]

 

I am on record in this thread with my theory as to how money doesn't matter enough of anymore once you get into 9 figures.  These are baseball players.  They aren't running a major operation, with hundreds and hundreds of employees and all sorts of responsibilities.  They just have to play baseball and they don't even need to do it well because the money is guaranteed.

 

Donaldson is set to earn 9  figures and he has already earned 80 million.  What the heck does 10 million more even mean to him?  Honestly.  That kind of money doesn't have the sway that it would for a guy looking for a one year deal or a two year deal.

 

So please....don't talk to me about Lance Lynn, Odorizzi or whomever.  That is on a totally different level and is nothing to do with what I am saying and the effect that a guy like Donaldson is experiencing right now.  This idea that says...."Man, If we only give him 10 million more than everyone else we would have him!" is futile and it isn't even necessarily true.  He is going to play where he wants.  Isn't that what being a free agent is all about?  The dude lives in Mobile, Alabama and is from Jacksonville, Fl.  He's spent his time far away from home in Oakland and Toronto.  YOu don't think MAYBE he'd like to finish up closer to home?  You don't think MAYBE he's just  using the Twins and has no desire to play anywhere but Atlanta or some team with REAL playoff pedigree?

 

Come on now.....please

Donaldson camp says, "4/110 gets it done". Are they lying? Or do they have a number that they would expect to get to sign? If Madbum is to be believed in leaving money on the table shouldn't Donaldson's people be believed too in this case?

 

Just of note, I'm against signing Donaldson. Unless Sano or Cruz were traded for other help. I for one don't want Sano at 1B and he is blocked at the moment from DH. Not that I don't like JD. He's an impact player but the pieces just don't stick together quite right imo.

[specialiststeve]

 

Well, why would he sign here? The FO has already signaled it's not serious about competing by not grabbing an impact starter.

 

Like Who? Your insight is very poor! Cole? Strasburg? Madbum? Non were coming here even if our bid was even or more than the big boys. Who else was availbable? HMM Odorizzi... signed Pineda ...signed. Filled out the rotation with guys that have experience... not top of the line but capable. 

 

Not serious about competing? We won the Division last year... C'mon David ... Keep up....

[Battle ur tail off]

Non were coming here even if our bid was even or more than the big boys. ...

How do we know? That’s the thing I and others are arguing. Make the top offer by 10-15 mill and see what happens once. It has NEVER been tried in Minnesota so there is nothing there to base your statement I quoted on.

[Battle ur tail off]

As for what to do next? I honestly think it’s probably time for the FO to do an interview with the press and let everyone know what is going on. They’ve turned a ton of people off this winter. Let everyone know that your plan is to start one of your young guns at 1b and that there will be an open competition for your 3-5 spots in the rotation and name some guys you think have a chance. Bailey, Graterol, Thorpe, Dobnak, Alcala.

 

At this point it’s obvious we have no chance to add anyone impactful. The FO is unwilling to push the envelope as it pertains to dollar offers to free agents and they are not trading anyone in the top 10 of our system.

 

Bottom line. Just tell the truth for once

[Richie the Rally Goat]

How do we know? That’s the thing I and others are arguing. Make the top offer by 10-15 mill and see what happens once. It has NEVER been tried in Minnesota so there is nothing there to base your statement I quoted on.

assuming Donaldson goes elsewhere, the top free agents are off the board. What should the FO do next?

[Battle ur tail off]

I said it in my last post but I think it’s time for them to come clean. Let everyone know flat out you couldn’t afford any of the top free agents and that you are gonna start some of your kids. One at one of the corners and 1 or 2 in the rotation.

 

Then tell folks you will be working the lines from now till the trade deadline trying to improve the club.

 

I think people would respect them more and would have done the same thing to for TR had they just told the truth and let everyone know what the plan is. Rather than tell everyone how they find impact guys or terry’s famous quote about how money isn’t holding them back and that ownership has given them the green light.

[akmanak]

Why would someone want to come here knowing that the core team will turnover in 2 years ?

[DocBauer]

I am ALL about what to do next. And I will. But I want to briefly address the elephant in the room.

 

I really like and trust this FO. And I am willing to give a lot of slack to them for all I have seen them do despite my off SEASON frustrations that echo most everyone else's. I very much wanted Wheeler or Bumgarner, though I viewed each differently. I am not happy we didn't get either, but at least I understand why we didn't. To me, IMO, I see why top dollar wasn't spent on Keuchel or Ryu. A different debate and past time, but I get it. Donaldonsm again IMO, was a very smart plan A2. We just can't get those 2 guys, so let's improve the team a different way. I've always felt it was a long shot based on his stated preference. And if the Twins offer was really so poor and low, as some clearly believe, then the Twins would have been out of the running well before this. Simple logic should make that clear. My goodness, how would a low and undervalue offer interest you or help drive your bid up? Just think about it guys. Now, just saying "the hell with it, let's just go all in and meet his demands and sed if he blinks" is also a different discussion. First to meet demands? Would he still sign? Would Atlanta blink and he'd just say I had 2 offers of the same and took this one? Would he back off and just say the offers were close and I decided on Atlanta? Honestly, we'll never know. But the Twins offer is above $20M per year and pushes their payroll to mid $140M with no other additions and zero incentives reached by Hill. But the Twins aren't making a serious offer? A little perspective is all I ask.

 

Now, where I think the FO miscalculated was by mis-judging a higher swing upward in contract value this off-season as well as the allure of a talented team on the upswing with loads of potential coming off a terrific season. In fact, they may have miscalculated enough they may have missed out on other options.

 

So what do they do now?

 

1] There is a hole in the infield. Unless you address it by trade, Frazier and Moreland seem to be the best options available. Neither are sexy or great, but either presents a viable ML player who can contribute defensively and offensively to basically replace Cron, not stretch your bench, and help at the bottom of the order without simply resorting to auditioning not yet ready for prime time options.

 

2] In a crazy set of circumstances, the rotation is actually set up, potentially, better from June/July onward, even though some questions remain. From Ray, to Gray, to Archer or Alcantara, etc, they need to dig in to their top 20 prospect talent and add a SP. The depth in the system is such they can do so without blowing up the system or sacrificing tomorrow. But unless they truly feel the rotation talent is about to blow up in a positive way, you just can't let this 100+ team rest on it's laurels from last season. The sacrifice would be worth it.

 

That's it. This is a quality team with a ton of future success in their "window". Make one small move and one big/semi-big move to move the 2020 season forward.

[shimrod]

I believe the contention that the Twins offer for JD was not competitive. 

 

What to do next? We still need to improve the starting pitching. If we wind up with more than we need they're trade bait, that simple. 

 

Twins should target a salary dump pitcher that comes with minimal cost in prospects. Demonstrate the talk about spending to improve wasn't BS. 

 

Will they do this? Hell no, I think they were lying. 

 

I am coming to think the FO expected they'd never have to make good on that promise. By the time the "window opened" the base salary would be higher through arbitration and perhaps an extension or two. FO would point at that and say the impact spending window had passed. Unfortunately the team got ahead of the expected schedule. 101 wins later the fan base is expecting action to back up the talk. 

 

So spend the money on pitching. It's not too late to trade and there are teams looking to dump expensive pitchers. The pitchers may not play to the contract but even if they don't they're better than what we've already got. This team can and should be improved, it will only cost money, and at the end of the season the owners will still have made millions in profit. It may be a few millions less than desired but hey, if the team excels and goes deep in the playoffs it may even be a profit booster. Do it. 

[USAFChief]

I think at this point, you make a final push to get Donaldson under contract. He fits pretty well. Improves the infield defense, adds a middle of the order bat. I'd try really hard to get it done. The money is there. If it takes 4/$110, do it. 

 

If, on the other hand, he says no, then I try to add a LH bullpen piece, and call it an offseason. I hope I survive the first half with 40 percent of a rotation, and see what's available at the deadline. It will still be expensive, but there may be more options.

 

They blew the offseason, just tuck your tail between your legs, admit it, and hope for the best. 

[Jeff_M]

Dude, f- Donaldson.

 

Based on his history we'd expect roughly 2 of 4 productive seasons, if that.

For $110 million more impactful moves can be made.

 

At least with Wheeler & some of the other guys discussed, it was more of a sure bet in terms of positive impact.

 

Let's run out the status quo & see how it goes, seriously.  To grow from within, it's more fun that way.

 

I like FO's progress so far