Front Page: Ryu To Sign with Toronto. Now What?

[chpettit19]

 

Nothing about this pitching staff is credible to any sustainable success.

2 pitchers in the top 20 of WAR in the entire league isn't credible to sustainable success? I'd disagree.

[Mike Sixel]

2 pitchers in the top 20 of WAR in the entire league isn't credible to sustainable success? I'd disagree.

One of whom is controlled for one more year.....

[Otto von Ballpark]

nope, he wasn’t available for everyone before he accepted the QO.

 

Free agents don’t open up to the other teams until after the QO is rejected.

No, the other poster was correct:

 

"A player will have 10 days to accept or decline the qualifying offer, during which time he can negotiate with other teams to survey his market value."

 

http://m.mlb.com/glossary/transactions/qualifying-offer

[Mr. Brooks]

Do you have any evidence they didn't?

 

My point is that saying "do whatever it takes" means you're theoretically willing to go drastically above what others did just to get the deal done. And to me that makes no sense. My guess is it wasn't as much the dollars as it was the years that gave the Twins pause with Ryu. I don't think we'll see this FO hand out many deals over 3 years for guys over 30 years old. They will try to do a few, but I don't think they like locking themselves into long term deals like that.

Ok, but then they aren't serious about acquiring impact arms.

Someone is always going to be willing to go that 4th or 5th year, it's a tax on getting them in years 1 and 2.

 

Yes, going 4 years for a guy like Ryu is a risk. But inaction is also a risk.

 

If they want impact pitchers via trade, they'll also have to "overpay" on that route.

 

At some point you have to be willing to eat that extra year at the end of the contract, or include a better prospect, or whatever it takes.

 

You won't find any posts of me asking them to make unreasonable signings or trades. But I don't think 4/80 for Ryu is at all unreasonable.

[drivlikejehu]

 

One of whom is controlled for one more year.....

 

Thorpe, Duran, Balazovic, Graterol, etc. are controlled for 6-7 years. Regardless of what else happens, that's going to be the key to pitching 'sustainability.'

[Mike Sixel]

Thorpe, Duran, Balazovic, Graterol, etc. are controlled for 6-7 years. Regardless of what else happens, that's going to be the key to pitching 'sustainability.'

They will have to be. But that's not what the post said..

[lukeduke1980]

The Twins knew in July that the rotation had one player committed to 2020. Another reason to do something at the trade deadline that netted an injured relief pitcher, at the last second. Stroman perhaps could have been had. Bumgardner could have been introduced to Minnesota and its horse friendly prairie land.

[USAFChief]

My position is neither. Jake was not a free agent until after the qualifying offer day came. The previous poster claimed no teams offered him in those 10 days, which couldn't happen.

Except that's not true. Players offered a QO are free to negotiate while they decide to accept or not.

 

And even if they werent, I wouldn't believe any claim an agent wouldnt have a pretty good feel for what their client is worth

[ChiefsKid]

Yeah, I'm surprised Texas even has a farm system left after all they had to give up for Kluber. Earth shattering really. Boston is going to get under the tax threshold this year and the easiest way to do it is to get someone to take on a bunch of the Price contract. Ray is on his last year of team control and is not a top tier pitcher. Matz is the 6th guy on the Mets and not a top tier arm. Yes, there are other teams in the bidding for these guys, but they aren't going to ship out big time prospects for these guys either. 

 

Why is not wanting to overpay a cop out? When is overpaying ever a good thing anywhere in life? If you've decided something is worth X amount you don't go out and pay more than X amount to get it just so you can say you have it. That's bad business all around.

 

 

Price has $96M left on his contract. Would you sign David Price for 3/96 today?

It's either going to cost nearly that 100M to get him, or they are going to want a decent prospect haul. One or the other. I wouldn't call that "nothing". Far from it. That's the bad part about being forced into negotiating trades because you failed to acquire what you need on the open market.

Never mind that Price hasn't been effectively healthy in 3 years.

 

If Matz is #6 in New York then why do you want him here? That's literally admitting we have a terrible rotation.

 

Ray being "not a top tier pitcher" brings the same question again, why do we even want him here then?

 

It's a cop out answer because it's not an "overpay" if that's what every quality starter costs. You can't watch every single FA sign elsewhere and then claim every single suitor "overpaid". Its a cop out because it's not overpaying. That's the price. Either pay it, or admit you aren't in the running. Consistently offering 85% of the accepted contract isn't a "competitive offer".

 

If the Twins FO opened up the offseason and spoke to the fans the last few years with the realization and acceptance that they just aren't going to bring in a top tier FA pitcher, I'd respect and accept that more.

What disappoints me is the idea that we were told the Twins will aggressively pursue impact pitching, and be aggressive with the payroll, when in reality it seemingly was blown smoke.

[D.C Twins]

 

I continue to remind your faithful readers of this fact. Cleveland started 3 pitchers last summer from the 2016 draft and they all were good to great. That is the direction Falvine are going. To paraphrase Mick Mulvaney," Live with it."

I'll live with it when someone enlightens me to which of the 3 pitchers from our 2017 class are going to be be good to great for us this year

[shimrod]

"What disappoints me is the idea that we were told the Twins will aggressively pursue impact pitching, and be aggressive with the payroll, when in reality it seemingly was blown smoke"

 

I wouldn't call it blowing smoke. Speaking for myself, I'm aggressively pursuing the acquisition of a 2019 Range Rover as soon as I find someone who will sell it to me for less than 20K. That's not blowing smoke. Seriously, 2019 Range Rover for 20K I'll pay you straight cash. I'm in this to win. 

[JP3700]

Price has $96M left on his contract. Would you sign David Price for 3/96 today? It's either going to cost nearly that 100M to get him, or they are going to want a decent prospect haul. One or the other. I wouldn't call that "nothing". Far from it. That's the bad part about being forced into negotiating trades because you failed to acquire what you need on the open market.Never mind that Price hasn't been effectively healthy in 3 years.

This article gives you an idea of Price's trade value. https://blogs.fangraphs.com/david-prices-trade-value/

 

Boston would have to include some significant talent or eat quite a bit of salary.

[David HK]

Welp, nothing like consistency.

 

This sucks. Ryu was the guy I really wanted, and was in our means without breaking the whole bank.  What happened in those playoffs last year was an embarrassment, with the guys we threw out there on the mound, and eveyone knows what our- and many other teams''- #1 priority has to be. But hey, at least we kept to the script.

 

The Minny Way- the same script we always follow- build a competitive team over time,1st round playoff greasing, (nearly always to the Yanks), keeping with the script.

 

An opportunity to follow up on a good season and pick up some help, but when when it's time to bite the bullet, we don't, keeping with the script.

 

Dragging our feet, hanging on for dear life to an abundance of prospects that may or may not pan out, while even the 2nd tier guys get locked away, keeping with the script.  Then, most likely, scraping the bottom of the barrel for yet another reclamation project, keeping with the script.

 

Heh... even the Vikings kept with the script today- a totally uninspiring, embarrassing performance when it's all on the line. The O doesn't capitalize on what the D hands them, time and again, and get spanked in a big game by the Pack, right in front of the home fans. Now, we may be on our way to another meeting with them, in their park on a wintry day, and yet another Minny One-and-Done. Again, keeping with the script

 

Ain't it time to get a new damn writer?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ChiefsKid]

This article gives you an idea of Price's trade value. https://blogs.fangraphs.com/david-prices-trade-value/

Boston would have to include some significant talent or eat quite a bit of salary.

 

Price's "potential trade value" interests me very little until he is in fact traded to the Twins.

Until that point, I'm just pretty jaded, causing me to be pretty cynical.

Maybe Price is getting healthy again and maybe the Twins could benefit from the Sox needing to shed payroll. Then again, i also thought maybe the Twins sign Wheeler, Ryu, Keuchel, or Bumgarner.

[DocBauer]

Going to hit a few topics here all at once. Agree with me or blast me, up to you. I will also state again, I am not an apologist for the FO. I am, however a big fan of most of what they have done to this point. And I will freely admit there have been a few times when j have disagreed with what they did, or didn't do, and have been proven wrong. ALL that being said, here we go:

 

1] There are, of course, exceptions. (There is no need to rebuttle, I've already stated the previous fact). But generally speaking, a true ACE SP is rarely made available unless it is a team in some sort of cost cutting or rebuild mode. They are prized possessions. This FA class was unique in that there 2 available. The final price tag and terms alone, in retrospect if not for thought, eliminates all but a handful of teams in the league.

 

I really wanted Wheeler. I would have liked Bumgarner for various reasons, despite various arguments against, which I get. Wheeler is healthy enough, just young enough, with nice velocity, he could raise his game to another level. But to think he was an ACE SP just waiting to come to anyone is hyperbole at best at this point. That's not a knock. He has a fine arm. He COULD take another step forward. But if he was that good, then why did his cost come at half of the other 2 prizes?

 

Wheeler turned down more money elsewhere, from at least one team. A well placed source with Arizona basically stated Bumgarner and his agent contacted Arizona about playing there. As I have heard reported, he is signed for something around $6M for 2020, and deffered around $16-17M post contract, and left something between $20-25M on the table from other offers to pitch for the Diamondbacks.

 

2] "Impact pitching" is the catch phrase everyone hangs their hat on. But what does that mean exactly? And that may be the rub that frustrates and disturbs the most. I never heard, "we are going to sign or trade for one of the best SP in the game". When the season ended, Odorizzi and Pineda were on almost every list as 2 of the top 10-12 rotation arms available. The Twins re-signed both. Because they were with us last season somehow diminishes their ability are value? They were part of one of the deepest and best ranked rotations in the AL last season despite Gibson and Perez falling apart.

 

The Twins absolutely NEED another SP to legitimately compete for one of the top 3 spots in the rotation. And we could argue about someone like Bumgarner or Keuchel as being able to be that guy. But what about trading for that guy? How about Gray, or Ray, or a bounce back from Archer, just to toss out 3 names? They will cost a handful of prospects from a deep system, but they all could be as good or better than most or all the FA arms we "missed out" on without the years and $. I remind that Odorizzi and Pineda were surprises with mixed feelings when brought on board, but have proven to be very smart moves.

 

Now, said trade HAS TO HAPPEN, and hasn't happened yet. YET. So let's slow the roll of angst for a moment.

 

Personally, I'd still like a Wood, Walker type of cheap signing also for depth and competition. It would just be smart to do so.

 

This a team well built overall, coming off 101 win season with most everything intact, including a much better and deeper bullpen than when 2019 began. We saw a few pitching prospects get their feet wet and show potential. A few more of equal ability might not be far off. The payroll can easily allow for additions, and prospect capital is high. I'm EAGER for something to happen. Hell, I'm even hoping Donaldson is actually interested and not just playing the Twins and Nationals against one another in order to get a better final offer from the Braves, (which could be reality), and we get him AND make a solid trade.

 

But despite my own anxiousness to see a move, and to see ST and the season start, I'm just not ready to pull some kind of plug on 2020 because we lost out on a collection of over 30, high contract pitchers when I haven't seen the final chapter of this off season yet.

[Lasorda_This_Out]

 

 

 

 

And remember guys and gals, no matter what the Minnesota Twins do in off Season moves, we will never do enough to defeat the New York Yankees in a Playoff series. We need fate and other MLB teams to remove NY from our path to the WS?

 

[Lasorda_This_Out]

Because we're Fargo ( um Minnesota) and they are New York....

[MABB1959]

Free agency was a bust instead of  trading why not just bring up the farm and see who will succeed and who won't.  By not signing a top free agent we are not going to get any better.  I have kind of always thought we leave good top signing players in the minors too long anyway.

[Major League Ready]

 

"The consternation over the lack of free agent signings seems to be bigger than when we got swept in the first round."

 

Maybe because it looks like we plan to run out the same team that got swept, minus several occasional contributors and a whole lot of salary. 

 

I'm beginning to think the front office signed on expecting to execute the complete tear down/rebuild only to be thwarted by on-field success. Every free agent they've signed has been added with the intention they'd build value and trade for prospects. That's not a bad strategy but it's hard to execute when the team insists on winning enough to keep the post-season in play. 

 

Perhaps this will be the year the FO gets to finally gut the team of veterans and acquire the minor league talent that will eventually lead the organization back to the promised land. 

 

Other than the odd deal with Garcia what FA have they traded? Cruz / Schoop / Cron / Pineada. I guess they traded Lynn but how do you come to the conclusion their goal was to acquire and trade?

[In My La Z boy]

 

Free agency was a bust instead of  trading why not just bring up the farm and see who will succeed and who won't.  By not signing a top free agent we are not going to get any better.  I have kind of always thought we leave good top signing players in the minors too long anyway.

This might be the plan BBAM? Although I still think we flip some prospects for someone or two in January.

[ewen21]

I guess I don't get why you would want MadBum who is clearly on the decline over someone who is trending upwards. .

Essentially what I’m saying about Ryu. Who cares about “if healthy”???

 

“”If healthy” for a 33 year starter with a history of injuries isn’t what we need.

 

The last thing is this....

Even if we had Bumgarner and Ryu starting for us last year in the playoffs we still aren’t getting past the Yankees with the type of deer in the headlights at bats we had all series. This has gone on and on for years. If this organization can’t push pat that I doubt we win with Sandy Koufax and Tom Seaver toeing the rubber

[ewen21]

This FA pitching crop is overpriced and overrated. Believe it or not, the only one I think who can live up to the contract is Bumgarner and I don’t put good odds on that. We need to be willing to TRADE PROSPECTS to bring in young cost controlled pitching. All of our prospects if need be—before it’s too late.

 

Buxton, Sano, Rosario, Kepler, Polanco, Arraez, etc....these are supposed to be guys we build around. Keep them and get a couple of young arms with upside using the farm system. Clean out the farm system if we need to but give me guys in their 20s to match this group. I don’t want to pay for a name in a shiny new package. It almost never pans out.

 

All this talk about pitching in the playoffs and meanwhile we can barely average two runs a game during this run of futility. We need a stable of young arms to back up the nucleus. Not guys like Ryu who are a big BIG question mark and 33 years old.

 

When he’s pitched his stats have been good. WHO CARES? He probably couldn’t go 150 innings this year if his life depended on it

[USAFChief]

This FA pitching crop is overpriced and overrated. Believe it or not, the only one I think who can live up to the contract is Bumgarner and I don’t put good odds on that. We need to be willing to TRADE PROSPECTS to bring in young cost controlled pitching. All of our prospects if need be—before it’s too late.

 

Buxton, Sano, Rosario, Kepler, Polanco, Arraez, etc....these are supposed to be guys we build around. Keep them and get a couple of young arms with upside using the farm system. Clean out the farm system if we need to but give me guys in their 20s to match this group. I don’t want to pay for a name in a shiny new package. It almost never pans out.

 

All this talk about pitching in the playoffs and meanwhile we can barely average two runs a game during this run of futility. We need a stable of young arms to back up the nucleus. Not guys like Ryu who are a big BIG question mark and 33 years old.

 

When he’s pitched his stats have been good. WHO CARES? He probably couldn’t go 150 innings this year if his life depended on it

182 IP in 2019.

[tony&rodney]

 

This FA pitching crop is overpriced and overrated. Believe it or not, the only one I think who can live up to the contract is Bumgarner and I don’t put good odds on that. We need to be willing to TRADE PROSPECTS to bring in young cost controlled pitching. All of our prospects if need be—before it’s too late.

Buxton, Sano, Rosario, Kepler, Polanco, Arraez, etc....these are supposed to be guys we build around. Keep them and get a couple of young arms with upside using the farm system. Clean out the farm system if we need to but give me guys in their 20s to match this group. I don’t want to pay for a name in a shiny new package. It almost never pans out.

All this talk about pitching in the playoffs and meanwhile we can barely average two runs a game during this run of futility. We need a stable of young arms to back up the nucleus. Not guys like Ryu who are a big BIG question mark and 33 years old.

When he’s pitched his stats have been good. WHO CARES? He probably couldn’t go 150 innings this year if his life depended on it

 

 

Who are you suggesting we trade for using only prospects? I'm just curious.

Kluber may have been worth a trade but I doubt if Cleveland would trade with Minnesota. 

[rdehring]

 

Going to hit a few topics here all at once. Agree with me or blast me, up to you. I will also state again, I am not an apologist for the FO. I am, however a big fan of most of what they have done to this point. And I will freely admit there have been a few times when j have disagreed with what they did, or didn't do, and have been proven wrong. ALL that being said, here we go:

1] There are, of course, exceptions. (There is no need to rebuttle, I've already stated the previous fact). But generally speaking, a true ACE SP is rarely made available unless it is a team in some sort of cost cutting or rebuild mode. They are prized possessions. This FA class was unique in that there 2 available. The final price tag and terms alone, in retrospect if not for thought, eliminates all but a handful of teams in the league.

I really wanted Wheeler. I would have liked Bumgarner for various reasons, despite various arguments against, which I get. Wheeler is healthy enough, just young enough, with nice velocity, he could raise his game to another level. But to think he was an ACE SP just waiting to come to anyone is hyperbole at best at this point. That's not a knock. He has a fine arm. He COULD take another step forward. But if he was that good, then why did his cost come at half of the other 2 prizes?

Wheeler turned down more money elsewhere, from at least one team. A well placed source with Arizona basically stated Bumgarner and his agent contacted Arizona about playing there. As I have heard reported, he is signed for something around $6M for 2020, and deffered around $16-17M post contract, and left something between $20-25M on the table from other offers to pitch for the Diamondbacks.

2] "Impact pitching" is the catch phrase everyone hangs their hat on. But what does that mean exactly? And that may be the rub that frustrates and disturbs the most. I never heard, "we are going to sign or trade for one of the best SP in the game". When the season ended, Odorizzi and Pineda were on almost every list as 2 of the top 10-12 rotation arms available. The Twins re-signed both. Because they were with us last season somehow diminishes their ability are value? They were part of one of the deepest and best ranked rotations in the AL last season despite Gibson and Perez falling apart.

The Twins absolutely NEED another SP to legitimately compete for one of the top 3 spots in the rotation. And we could argue about someone like Bumgarner or Keuchel as being able to be that guy. But what about trading for that guy? How about Gray, or Ray, or a bounce back from Archer, just to toss out 3 names? They will cost a handful of prospects from a deep system, but they all could be as good or better than most or all the FA arms we "missed out" on without the years and $. I remind that Odorizzi and Pineda were surprises with mixed feelings when brought on board, but have proven to be very smart moves.

Now, said trade HAS TO HAPPEN, and hasn't happened yet. YET. So let's slow the roll of angst for a moment.

Personally, I'd still like a Wood, Walker type of cheap signing also for depth and competition. It would just be smart to do so.

This a team well built overall, coming off 101 win season with most everything intact, including a much better and deeper bullpen than when 2019 began. We saw a few pitching prospects get their feet wet and show potential. A few more of equal ability might not be far off. The payroll can easily allow for additions, and prospect capital is high. I'm EAGER for something to happen. Hell, I'm even hoping Donaldson is actually interested and not just playing the Twins and Nationals against one another in order to get a better final offer from the Braves, (which could be reality), and we get him AND make a solid trade.

But despite my own anxiousness to see a move, and to see ST and the season start, I'm just not ready to pull some kind of plug on 2020 because we lost out on a collection of over 30, high contract pitchers when I haven't seen the final chapter of this off season yet.

You did it again, Doc.  Well said!

[Trevor0333]

Move Taylor Rogers into the rotation and sign Will Harris or Betances.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Odorizi was a member of the Twins until after he accepted or declined his qualifying offer.  He could not be "bid" on until after that process was over.

 

Read how the process works. They have 10 days once it is offered in order to negotiate with other teams to gauge their market value. 

[goulik]

CY runner up.

We're talking about the team that started Randy Dobnak in game 2 of the ALDS in Yankee Stadium.

Because Pineda was suspended and Gibson was unhealthy. People keep forgetting that part of the equation. Leaving out part of the facts is misleading and part of it may be that your misleading yourself by leaving out these facts.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

nope, he wasn’t available for everyone before he accepted the QO.

Free agents don’t open up to the other teams until after the QO is rejected.

 

Read please. I'm getting blasted for this, but seems as though some haven't read the rules. If his agent didn't use those 10 days to figure out his market value, he's bad. In fact, if I was Odorizzi with how this offseason has played out, I'd fire the guy right now. He did his client a huge disservice. He should have been shown the money this season. 

 

http://m.mlb.com/glossary/transactions/qualifying-offer

 

[Battle ur tail off]

 

nope, he wasn’t available for everyone before he accepted the QO.

Free agents don’t open up to the other teams until after the QO is rejected.

 

They have 10 days to negiotate with other teams to gauge market value. It's in the rules. His agent didn't do a very good job on this.