Front Page: Ryu To Sign with Toronto. Now What?

[Mike Sixel]

 

MadBum won in the playoffs when he was 20, 22, 24, and 26, he's going to be 30 this year. I don't care about his age 26 season 4 years later. Ryu has pitched 4.2, 126.2, 82.1, and182.2 innings the last 4 years after having missed all of 2015 and is going to be 33 this year. You think he'll start holding up better as he gets older? I don't think they represent any improvement moving forward. And if improving on our #4 starter is your definition of "impact pitching" then I guess we strongly disagree on that definition.

 

You think the rookies on this roster will be better then Ryu and Bumgarner this year? 

[chpettit19]

 

You think the rookies on this roster will be better then Ryu and Bumgarner this year? 

Graterol might be if he puts it all together, but most likely, no. Are the rookies on this roster the only options the Twins have left? Even on the FA market? Does one of them starting game 4 of a playoff series equal "impact pitching" to you? Cuz I don't believe either of them will be better than our top 3 guys. I just don't see how you can say those 2 give us a chance to win in October, but the 3 guys in house with equal or better stats don't. You positive MadBum is any good away from SF? His splits certainly say he's a below average pitcher when not throwing in that pitcher friendly park. You willing to bet 4 years on that? Whether you like it or not that bet likely includes having him for 4 years while losing Odo next year. That the bet you want to make to improve on the rookies this year?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

MadBum won in the playoffs when he was 20, 22, 24, and 26, he's going to be 30 this year. I don't care about his age 26 season 4 years later. Ryu has pitched 4.2, 126.2, 82.1, and182.2 innings the last 4 years after having missed all of 2015 and is going to be 33 this year. You think he'll start holding up better as he gets older? I don't think they represent any improvement moving forward. And if improving on our #4 starter is your definition of "impact pitching" then I guess we strongly disagree on that definition.

Strasburg is 30. Odorizzi is 30. Wheeler is 30. And so on.

 

With all due respect, this age argument is unpersuasive, at best.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Graterol might be if he puts it all together, but most likely, no. Are the rookies on this roster the only options the Twins have left? Even on the FA market? Does one of them starting game 4 of a playoff series equal "impact pitching" to you? Cuz I don't believe either of them will be better than our top 3 guys. I just don't see how you can say those 2 give us a chance to win in October, but the 3 guys in house with equal or better stats don't. You positive MadBum is any good away from SF? His splits certainly say he's a below average pitcher when not throwing in that pitcher friendly park. You willing to bet 4 years on that? Whether you like it or not that bet likely includes having him for 4 years while losing Odo next year. That the bet you want to make to improve on the rookies this year?

 

you said signing those guys would not be an improvement.......over what they have now. that's all I was responding to.

 

I have no idea who will be good with certainty, but I'd bet he's better than any of the rookies on the Twins this year, so yes, he'd be an improvement.

 

And, it isn't about just Bumgarner or Ryu, but all of the 20+ free agent starting pitchers they've passed on......

[IndianaTwin]

 

they refused to offer that much to any of the free agents this year, why would we think they'll do so for Odo, when they don't have to to keep him this year/

 

Didn't say that I think they will, but rather that I'd love it if they would. 

 

But I do think the circumstances may be different later in the winter. A characteristic I like about this FO is that they don't paint themselves into a corner. Building on the thoughts of chpettit19 above, between being the known quantity and now having six straight seasons of 28+ starts, he'd be my top pick among the Bumgarner, Ryu, Keuchel crowd, higher even than Wheeler, I think. Just because they didn't offer Ryu more than $80MM for four years in December doesn't mean they wouldn't offer Odo what I outlined in February. 

 

As you note, they didn't offer him that much earlier because they didn't have to. But I hope that part of their communication with him was, "We are going to offer you the QO, but once the dust settles on the rest of the market and we know much we needed in filling other holes, we very much would like to come back for more conversation." And if they do offer something like I suggested, he may still say, "Thanks, but no thanks -- I'm betting on myself."

[Mike Sixel]

 

Didn't say that I think they will, but rather that I'd love it if they would. 

 

But I do think the circumstances may be different later in the winter. A characteristic I like about this FO is that they don't paint themselves into a corner. Building on the thoughts of chpettit19 above, between being the known quantity and now having six straight seasons of 28+ starts, he'd be my top pick among the Bumgarner, Ryu, Keuchel crowd, higher even than Wheeler, I think. Just because they didn't offer Ryu more than $80MM for four years in December doesn't mean they wouldn't offer Odo what I outlined in February. 

 

As you note, they didn't offer him that much earlier because they didn't have to. But I hope that part of their communication with him was, "We are going to offer you the QO, but once the dust settles on the rest of the market and we know much we needed in filling other holes, we very much would like to come back for more conversation." And if they do offer something like I suggested, he may still say, "Thanks, but no thanks -- I'm betting on myself."

 

good post. Well written and persuasive.

[chpettit19]

 

Strasburg is 30. Odorizzi is 30. Wheeler is 30. And so on.

With all due respect, this age argument is unpersuasive, at best.

I didn't say MadBum was going to be bad because he was 30. I said I don't care what he did in the postseason when he was 26 if he is now 30 because he's a totally different pitcher now. If you're willing to pay someone based on what they did 4 years ago over what they did in the 4 years since, cool. I'm not. He has not been the elite pitcher he was in those post seasons since. His ERA away from home last year was 5.29 with an OPS+ against 118 and slugging against of .504. So if you prefer to go by his post season stats when he was 26 over his full season stats last year then by all means be mad we didn't pay him, but I'm not in that boat.

[D.C Twins]

 

David Price is 34 years old and is owed 32M-32M-32M for the next 3 seasons and has missed heavy parts of the last 2 seasons.  Taking all of that contract seems like a huge risk.  I can't imagine they would take on Price unless Boston is covering at least a semi-decent portion of it.

 

Not sold on Price....but just to be clear, there is also RISK in inactivity as well...

[sweetmusicviola16]

 

MadBum won in the playoffs when he was 20, 22, 24, and 26, he's going to be 30 this year. I don't care about his age 26 season 4 years later. Ryu has pitched 4.2, 126.2, 82.1, and182.2 innings the last 4 years after having missed all of 2015 and is going to be 33 this year. You think he'll start holding up better as he gets older? I don't think they represent any improvement moving forward. And if improving on our #4 starter is your definition of "impact pitching" then I guess we strongly disagree on that definition.

Why did the Twins FO have interest in these guys then? Or did they just all of a sudden become not good players after we failed to get any of them?

[D.C Twins]

 

There has been much criticism about the lack of success for the Twins in the free agent pitching market. Perhaps rightfully so.

 

However, it seems to me that it is possible that they liked this year's free agent crop. But they didn't necessarily love them enough to set the market on a bad multiyear mega deal for a good-but-not-great pitcher.

 

This does point towards the trade market.

 

It also could point towards the FO already looking ahead to the potential free agent crop of pitchers...for NEXT off-season?  IF they are going to set the market and potentially overpay for an arm, it is possible that they decided that they like next year's guys better than this year's guys.

 

And again, this does point towards the trade market.

Wait 'till next year!!!!!!  You and other GM's are not smart enough to track their detailed and sneaky plans!

[chpettit19]

 

you said signing those guys would not be an improvement.......over what they have now. that's all I was responding to.

 

I have no idea who will be good with certainty, but I'd bet he's better than any of the rookies on the Twins this year, so yes, he'd be an improvement.

 

And, it isn't about just Bumgarner or Ryu, but all of the 20+ free agent starting pitchers they've passed on......

Pineda and Odo WERE FREE AGENT PITCHERS. I don't know why you ignore that fact. They had the choice to go wherever they wanted and chose to come back here. And my statement about not improving was about not improving the "impact pitching" everyone, including you, say they need in order to win in October. The Twins are not planning to use any rookies in their October rotation unless one of them blows up and becomes a stud. They are planning to use Berrios, Odo, Pineda, and free agent/trade target X that haven't been signed yet. My point is that if you don't think they can win with those 3 guys then you shouldn't be mad that they didn't sign any of the other second tier starters because they are the same or worse as those 3.

 

[cardsfan]

Grandal was a great acquisition, but, Keuchel? Any 100 win team scared to face him? His team will improve some of they win 16 of his 29 starts.

[chpettit19]

 

Why did the Twins FO have interest in these guys then? Or did they just all of a sudden become not good players after we failed to get any of them?

They were interested to an extent, not the "do whatever it takes even if it means overpaying" extent that many fans on here wanted them to be. As others have stated they present an upgrade over our batch of unproven rookies, but many fans on here act like they are drastically better than the 3 veteran starters set to front the rotation right now. The FO never said they view these guys as anything other than veteran arms to stabilize a rotation. I think you could argue that they saw Wheeler as possibly more and that is why they were willing to go more years and money for him, but fans on here act like Ryu and MadBum were worth spending whatever was needed because they present some imagined upgrade on the 3 arms we already have and without signing them there is no chance to win in the playoffs. My argument is that they are nice depth pieces to extend the number of arms this year, but not guys who jump to the front of the rotation and are thus worth spending endlessly on.

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Grandal was a great acquisition, but, Keuchel? Any 100 win team scared to face him? His team will improve some of they win 16 of his 29 starts.

 

Compared to a random guy in A or AA last year? Keuchel isn't likely to be better than that? You believe he's not likely to be better than someone from their minors that isn't already penciled in?

 

Also, Cleveland just signed a new starting 2B......today.

[SwainZag]

 

Why did the Twins FO have interest in these guys then? Or did they just all of a sudden become not good players after we failed to get any of them?

 

Just because they had interest in them didn't mean they were willing to pay whatever it takes to bring them in.  This needs to be understood.  Just because they might love someone for 1 or 2 years doesn't mean the same interest is there at 4 and 5 years.

[sweetmusicviola16]

 

Pineda and Odo WERE FREE AGENT PITCHERS. I don't know why you ignore that fact. They had the choice to go wherever they wanted and chose to come back here. And my statement about not improving was about not improving the "impact pitching" everyone, including you, say they need in order to win in October. The Twins are not planning to use any rookies in their October rotation unless one of them blows up and becomes a stud. They are planning to use Berrios, Odo, Pineda, and free agent/trade target X that haven't been signed yet. My point is that if you don't think they can win with those 3 guys then you shouldn't be mad that they didn't sign any of the other second tier starters because they are the same or worse as those 3.

 

Pineda and Odo WERE FREE AGENT PITCHERS. I don't know why you ignore that fact. They had the choice to go wherever they wanted and chose to come back here. And my statement about not improving was about not improving the "impact pitching" everyone, including you, say they need in order to win in October. The Twins are not planning to use any rookies in their October rotation unless one of them blows up and becomes a stud. They are planning to use Berrios, Odo, Pineda, and free agent/trade target X that haven't been signed yet. My point is that if you don't think they can win with those 3 guys then you shouldn't be mad that they didn't sign any of the other second tier starters because they are the same or worse as those 3.

First they have to make the PO's and I don't see them as a shoe in as some do. CWS is much better. Cle has yet not torn its team apart. LAA, NYY, Tex among others have improved greatly. MN has stood pat with a team that over performed in 2019. I see a house of cards that with one or two cards giving way the whole house does. Having a rotation that is reliant on untested rookies is not a good way to offset other weakness imo.

[chpettit19]

 

First they have to make the PO's and I don't see them as a shoe in as some do. CWS is much better. Cle has yet not torn its team apart. LAA, NYY, Tex among others have improved greatly. MN has stood pat with a team that over performed in 2019. I see a house of cards that with one or two cards giving way the whole house does. Having a rotation that is reliant on untested rookies is not a good way to offset other weakness imo.

That is fair. I think the CWS improvement is overstated as much of their improvement is also reliant on untested rookies or 2nd year guys who will need to show they can adjust to the league's adjustments to them. I am still hoping to see some improvements to the Twins and would love to see a Donaldson deal get done (not holding my breath, though). Much of the complaining on here is about how they need to improve for October, though. And that is where I start to get confused on people on here saying we're screwed with the 3 guys we have and that's why we need to bring in a 4th guy equal to or below their level to really give us a shot. I want to see the team improve as I agree that they're a couple bad breaks or declines in production away from not making the playoffs, but that isn't the argument many on here are making.

[Otto von Ballpark]

First, my bad -- I misread Bumgarner's contract in calculating the 30-40%.

 

I'd also concur with your desire to be more aggressive in a slow market, though to use Darvish as the example, I think I'm glad we missed out, particularly if it had taken somewhat more than what he got. So far, we'd have spent however much more than $45MM for 218.2 innings and be left with however much more than $81MM over the remaining four years for his 33-36 years.

 

The remaining amount is probably not a gross overpayment of what he might get if he was a FA this winter, and I know that one decision doesn't automatically correlate to another, but if having Darvish would have kept us from signing Cruz, for example, I particularly am glad we didn't get Darvish.

 

Obviously this is all hypothetical, but I'm not sure aggregate stats are the way to go. With his dominant 2nd half, Darvish could have been an asset in the 2019 postseason, and on a 4/81 deal going forward.

 

As far as Cruz, more likely Darvish would have impacted other contracts from the same offseason -- Lynn obviously, and maybe Reed? Reed's money even carried over into 2019 and would have arguably been a better "bullet to dodge"! And remember, we were almost $10 mil under our 2018 payroll in 2019, so it wouldn't necessarily have taken much more than Reed's $8 mil to fit Darvish into a 2019 budget. But even if it did, the late signing of Marwin was probably more likely to get squeezed out than the early signing of Cruz.

 

Obviously this is all hypothetical, and there are all kinds of "butterfly effect" things that could have happened in the meantime, but it's not clear to me at this point that signing Darvish would have been worse than the moves we made and/or the remaining moves we are currently left considering this offseason.

[cardsfan]

Compared to a random guy in A or AA last year? Keuchel isn't likely to be better than that? You believe he's not likely to be better than someone from their minors that isn't already penciled in?

 

Also, Cleveland just signed a new starting 2B......today.

Cleveland is the main competion. Having little contributions from Kluber and Bauer they won 93 granted in a division that the bottom 3 teams averaged 100 losses.

 

If you traded Rosario and his 32 Hrs and 109 RBIs in 137 games and 106 OPS+ what would you get in return?

[Otto von Ballpark]

I don't remember if there were other specific circumstances on why TB was trading Odo, but he was coming off three seasons with a combined average ERA+ of 109 and four straight years of 140+ innings. On the subject of "impact" pitching, I'm thinking more in the cumulative than in the individual. Considering that the "impact" quote came at a time when only one guy on the roster had more than six starts last year, if that's what they would get for a Class A shortstop this winter after already signing the sixth and ninth-best starters, yeah, I'd call that getting "impact" pitching.

 

The Odorizzi acquisition definitely had an impact, but the term "impact" is from this offseason -- and has a very different context than the impact you are describing here.

 

I think if our "impact" pitching acquisition this offseason is coming off a 0.1 bWAR season in 2019, and posts a 1.5 bWAR full season mark in 2020, with only one year of control beyond that -- I don't think I would view that as favorably as Odorizzi, even if we "win" the trade and get good value in the process.

 

Hence my original reply, why the Odorizzi example isn't really all that applicable or reassuring in the context of this offseason's goals, even if the Odorizzi move was just fine for the time it was made.

[mshnd06]

Ryu is an injury risk, I get it, no one is arguing that he's not, but if you get a couple of healthy years out of him you're in good shape - he's been nothing but a stud when healthy.  Sometimes you have to take risks.  MadBum has a lot of innings on his arm but his demise is greatly exaggerated.  His 2019 was weaker and the stats bear out a slow decline but you make it sound like he hasn't done anything since his age 26 season and that just isn't true.  The following are ERA+, FIP, and WHIP for five pitchers over the last three years.

 

Pitcher A

128 3.95 1.09

116 3.99 1.24

107 3.90 1.13

 

Pitcher B

102 5.43 1.24

95 4.19 1.35

131 3.36 1.21

 

Pitcher C

89 3.79 1.35

103 4.66 1.29

113 4.02 1.16

 

Pitcher D

114 3.84 1.23

111 3.90 1.14

124 3.85 1.22

 

Pitcher E*

110 4.74 1.37

198 3.00 1.01

179 3.10 1.01

 

Who would you rather have?  You're not wrong to say that Berrios belongs at the top of the rotation but if you legitimately think Odorizzi and Pineda are at least as good as MadBum and Ryu, in my opinion you're viewing life through 2019-colored glasses at the expense of the bigger picture

 

[dex8425]

 

If you traded Rosario and his 32 Hrs and 109 RBIs in 137 games and 106 OPS+ what would you get in return?

Not much. About one-fourth of Jon Gray from the Rockies. Kiriloff for Gray would be more even. 

 

Also Cleveland's rotation is still way, way better on paper for 2020 than the Twins. Clevinger, Bieber, Plesac, Plutko, Civale, possible Carlos Carrasco. We will have Randy Dobnak, Lewis Thorpe and Devin Smeltzer in the rotation who have not even combined for 100 major league innings. 

[IndianaTwin]

 

Obviously this is all hypothetical, but I'm not sure aggregate stats are the way to go. With his dominant 2nd half, Darvish could have been an asset in the 2019 postseason, and on a 4/81 deal going forward.

As far as Cruz, more likely Darvish would have impacted other contracts from the same offseason -- Lynn obviously, and maybe Reed? Reed's money even carried over into 2019 and would have arguably been a better "bullet to dodge"! And remember, we were almost $10 mil under our 2018 payroll in 2019, so it wouldn't necessarily have taken much more than Reed's $8 mil to fit Darvish into a 2019 budget. But even if it did, the late signing of Marwin was probably more likely to get squeezed out than the early signing of Cruz.

Obviously this is all hypothetical, and there are all kinds of "butterfly effect" things that could have happened in the meantime, but it's not clear to me at this point that signing Darvish would have been worse than the moves we made and/or the remaining moves we are currently left considering this offseason.

 

I can go along with this, which is why I gave it a pretty tentative "I think I'm glad we missed out." Darvish would indeed have been very helpful as an alternative to a bullpen game in last year's playoffs, and while the remaining 4/$81 still feels a little high given his age, I do think (again, cautiously) I'd like it better than some of the other signings that have happened, particularly if we can assume that the Twins would have needed to go even higher to get this year's guys.

 

You gave the "butterfly effect" more thought than I did and you're probably right on the later deals that would have been more directly affected.    

[Brandon Brooks]

 

I'm intrigued with the idea of starting the season by running out a couple of "openers", buttressed by bulk-innings guys.

 

Tampa Bay did pretty well in that system last year, and the Twins are sitting on a bunch of MiLB guys who have had some success, but are still in MiLB.

 

How do you get better as a MLB pitcher?

 

By pitching innings.

 

Twins run this "opener" and "bulk" system for a couple months -- they will find out who looks like they are making the next step -- Graterol, Smeltzer, Balazovich, Dobnak.

 

Remember, there is a 26th guy this year.  And, under MLB rules, guys can be shuttled back and forth to Rochester in the year their option is being excersized.

 

It's kind of a "exploiting the under-utilized market" of the roster to be giving your best MiLB prospects access to regular MLB pitching -- not crunch time pitching -- but early-inning bulk experiences.

 

It's how you develop pitchers, and from that, starters and relievers who have experience and learned what to throw.

 

So, rather than putting my head in my hands for one guy, I think they take two slots and do the Rochester shuttle.

 

They should sign one other bulk pitcher though, on a bounce-back deal.

 

I really don't hate this at all, and I pretty much agree with everything you said here. One dependable bulk arm (I would have liked Teheran for that kind of job.) Randy Dobnak has been more or less lights-out at every professional level and I'm excited to see what he can do. Graterol could be starting mid-season and could be on the Opening Day roster if we're using more openers.

 

Lots of question marks, yes, which necessitates a surer bet signing on either the trade/FA market. But like you said, Tampa Bay has had a lot of success with this in the past while only ever having one or two "true starters" actually on the roster.

 

Playing the matchups and shuffling consistently did wonders for the offense last year, and digging into that philosophy for the pitching staff could produce similar results. Two reigning All-Star starters, adding a mid-tier arm, and running with some rookies -- complemented by what is a good on-paper pen.

[chpettit19]

 

Ryu is an injury risk, I get it, no one is arguing that he's not, but if you get a couple of healthy years out of him you're in good shape - he's been nothing but a stud when healthy.  Sometimes you have to take risks.  MadBum has a lot of innings on his arm but his demise is greatly exaggerated.  His 2019 was weaker and the stats bear out a slow decline but you make it sound like he hasn't done anything since his age 26 season and that just isn't true.  The following are ERA+, FIP, and WHIP for five pitchers over the last three years.

 

Pitcher A

128 3.95 1.09

116 3.99 1.24

107 3.90 1.13

 

Pitcher B

102 5.43 1.24

95 4.19 1.35

131 3.36 1.21

 

Pitcher C

89 3.79 1.35

103 4.66 1.29

113 4.02 1.16

 

Pitcher D

114 3.84 1.23

111 3.90 1.14

124 3.85 1.22

 

Pitcher E*

110 4.74 1.37

198 3.00 1.01

179 3.10 1.01

 

Who would you rather have?  You're not wrong to say that Berrios belongs at the top of the rotation but if you legitimately think Odorizzi and Pineda are at least as good as MadBum and Ryu, in my opinion you're viewing life through 2019-colored glasses at the expense of the bigger picture

Pitcher A I assume is MadBum as he's on a pretty defined decline. Either way he'd be my last choice as that guy looks to be league average this year followed by below average years unless you think he suddenly turns it around as he hits his 30s.

 

I'd obviously want player E if all things are equal and they're pitching the same number of innings as the other guys. My guess is that's Ryu and those are some impressive numbers. 

 

If player A really is MadBum I'm even happier we didn't sign him. If he's one of our guys I'm glad we don't have them locked up for long term deals. I think Pitcher A is clearly the worst moving forward while B-D are similar and E certainly stands out.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

All of the frustration about the lack of big name starters being signed seems to be because they got swept out of the playoffs by the Yankees again. According to Fangraphs the Twins had the 7th best rotation in all of baseball last year and the 3rd best bullpen. No Pineda really changed the look of this team come October and I fully believe in the idea that you can never have too much pitching, but it seems to me like people are acting like Berrios, Odo, and Pineda were the top 3 guys in some bottom 5 rotation or something. 

 

People are freaking out cuz they didn't sign Wheeler, MadBum, or Ryu who were all basically the same as Berrios and Odo (Pineda too, but his suspension makes me mad so I don't want to include him) last year and acting like bringing back Odo is just nothing and we're screwed if him or Berrios are our number 1 cuz we need one of these other guys who are the same to be the #1 instead. I absolutely agree we need another arm, especially while Pineda is out, but to act like Wheeler, MadBum, or Ryu are this fabled "impact pitching" we need, but Berrios and Odo aren't impact is ridiculous to me. They're all the same "impact" and Berrios is the youngest of the group with Odo just 2 months older than Wheeler. 

 

Not to mention the fact that the offense scored 7 runs in 3 games against the Yankees so I'm not quite sure why you aren't all lambasting the FO about not bringing in "impact hitting" since your argument is that without severe increase in talent there is a 0% chance we get passed the Yankees ever. 2 runs a game would seem to be a sign that this team is severly lacking in offensive talent when it comes to October as well. Injuries (Arraez, although he hit well, and Kepler, who didn't look like himself at all) and suspension dramatically changed this team come playoff time.

 

I want to see another arm brought in, but lets not rewrite history and start acting like we have no arms in our rotation. If you believe any of those 2nd tier FA were "impact pitching" then you think we have 2 "impact pitchers." If you don't think Berrios and Odo are good enough to get by in the playoffs then you don't think any of those 3 are either. You're just confusing spending more money with getting better players. I would have enjoyed another player on that level to add to the depth of arms, but missing on them isn't the same as missing on Cole or Strasburg. At this point I'd rather see us extend Berrios and Odo for the money we would have given to older guys or Wheeler. We know those 2 much more intimately than any of the FA arms so we have a much better idea on how they fit in the clubhouse and how they work with our coaches.

 

There's 5 rotation spots. That is all. 

 

 

 

[rdehring]

 

You think the rookies on this roster will be better then Ryu and Bumgarner this year? 

Good question, Mike?  I don't know, but I would bet there is a good chance that one of the rookies will have a better season than one of Ryu or Bumgarner.  Don't know which rookie and don't know whether it will be Ryu or Bumgarner.  

 

I also don't bet, so that is said in jest unless you are talking about a glass of wine or bottle of beer for you and a coke for me.

 

[i forgot to add that you will have to remind me come October because I sure as heck won't remember]

[Battle ur tail off]

 

, he'd be my top pick among the Bumgarner, Ryu, Keuchel crowd, higher even than Wheeler, I think. 

 

Then you are smarter than every GM is baseball. Ordorizi was out there for anyone and everyone to bid on before he accepted our QO. They have 10 days once it is extended. Funny there wasn't anyone out there willing to make him a better offer than that if he is better than those guys?????

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Pineda and Odo WERE FREE AGENT PITCHERS. I don't know why you ignore that fact. They had the choice to go wherever they wanted and chose to come back here. And my statement about not improving was about not improving the "impact pitching" everyone, including you, say they need in order to win in October. The Twins are not planning to use any rookies in their October rotation unless one of them blows up and becomes a stud. They are planning to use Berrios, Odo, Pineda, and free agent/trade target X that haven't been signed yet. My point is that if you don't think they can win with those 3 guys then you shouldn't be mad that they didn't sign any of the other second tier starters because they are the same or worse as those 3.

 

They had the choice to sign elsewhere, yes they did. What they didn't have were offers significantly better than what we gave them. If there were that wanted, we'd have had to pay more for them. 

[cardsfan]

Pitcher A I assume is MadBum as he's on a pretty defined decline. Either way he'd be my last choice as that guy looks to be league average this year followed by below average years unless you think he suddenly turns it around as he hits his 30s.

 

I'd obviously want player E if all things are equal and they're pitching the same number of innings as the other guys. My guess is that's Ryu and those are some impressive numbers.

 

If player A really is MadBum I'm even happier we didn't sign him. If he's one of our guys I'm glad we don't have them locked up for long term deals. I think Pitcher A is clearly the worst moving forward while B-D are similar and E certainly stands out.

Once Madbum went above 160 innings he was terrible last year. Oh he had extra days of rest too that last 5 weeks or so.

 

It's hard to find starting pitching.